President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[MichelleD]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

[Duncan]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

 

 

honestly though how many members would know about this or Mormon think? I would be VERY surprised if anyone here knew of this whole fuss

[juliann]

So not only is this twit expecting it to go to a jury trial, he's poisoning the well in advance in case the jury finds against him.

 

What's he going to say if the courts summarily toss it out before it goes anywhere, as the experts are predicting?

 

But that won't happen!  He assured Peggy Stack,  "I couldn’t get to this stage if it were frivolous, vexatious or an abuse of process," he said. "It’s already passed that. It cannot be thrown out as being frivolous."   

[CMZ]

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540).

[MichelleD]

honestly though how many members would know about this or Mormon think? I would be VERY surprised if anyone here knew of this whole fuss

Really? I think most members either know about this or will soon. My sweet 75 year old Mother who lives in Utah called me in a panic tonight over it (her neighbor told her about it). I calmed her down but she thought the Prophet was going to jail. I was furious that this caused her such pain. I reassured her and told her that President Monson most likely won't even have to travel to the Uk and that the church's excellent attorneys will get these charges dropped. So upsetting!

[Duncan]

Really? I think most members either know about this or will soon. My sweet 75 year old Mother who lives in Utah called me in a panic tonight over it (her neighbor told her about it). I calmed her down but she thought the Prophet was going to jail. I was furious that this caused her such pain. I reassured her and told her that President Monson most likely won't even have to travel to the Uk and that the church's excellent attorneys will get these charges dropped. So upsetting!

 

 

well, that's utah!! hahahaha! my 73 Mum and 81 yr old dad called me today wanting to know if I could find them a book called "Foxfire" on Amazon.ca! it's from I think 1972 about living in the blooming wilderness, as if anyone expects them to! Unless CBC picks it up then they won't know about it this whole thing going on.

[why me]

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

If we take a step outside ourselves and see it from the viewpoint of someone who is just reading a newspaper with no axe to grind I think that we may see it all rather differently, Many will just give a yawn and move on. Or if they did read the article about it they would think it all rather crazy and ridiculous. And if the case proceeds, more sympathy for the mormon church will come about and many people will search out the lds website, read it, see what mormons think and what they are doing and most will be impressed. This will not harm the church at all. But the church will gain members from it.

 

Where I am located, people are coming back to church, back into activity. And people are being baptized. Not because of this happening obviously but rather they are seeing the world in a different way.

 

And I think that this kind of publicity will not sit well with many exmormons who do not have an axe to grind. They may even see this kind of persecution as unjustified. And other religious faiths will also chime in and give support to the lds church if this case does drag on.

Edited February 6, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Really? I think most members either know about this or will soon. My sweet 75 year old Mother who lives in Utah called me in a panic tonight over it (her neighbor told her about it). I calmed her down but she thought the Prophet was going to jail. I was furious that this caused her such pain. I reassured her and told her that President Monson most likely won't even have to travel to the Uk and that the church's excellent attorneys will get these charges dropped. So upsetting!

And this is another good point. Many members will see it as persecution...a persecution that has existed since the very beginnings of the church. And of course it is persecution.

[Kenngo1969]

Are you saying that you think Phillips made up the whole story about receiving the Second Annointing?  Just curious.

While there is that old saying that those who know don't talk, and those who talk don't know, I don't know and, quite frankly, couldn't care less.  In any event, assuming he actually did receive the Second Anointing, my point still stands: in order for the ordinance to be of any effect, like all other ordinances, it must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

But that won't happen!  He assured Peggy Stack,  "I couldn’t get to this stage if it were frivolous, vexatious or an abuse of process," he said. "It’s already passed that. It cannot be thrown out as being frivolous."   

Again, I suspect Phillips's "evidence" is about as good as Grant Palmer's "evidence" from the conveniently-anonymous General Authority and former mission president, respectively.  Meeting minimal evidentiary requirements for a case to be allowed to proceed prior to trial is one thing: meeting the highest standard in existence in order to prevail in a criminal trial (proof beyond a reasonable doubt) is quite another.

[Kenngo1969]

It's a shame that ordinance was wasted on someone who obviously didn't appreciate it or fully understand the doctrine behind it. 

Indeed.

[sheilauk]

But that won't happen!  He assured Peggy Stack,  "I couldn’t get to this stage if it were frivolous, vexatious or an abuse of process," he said. "It’s already passed that. It cannot be thrown out as being frivolous."   

 

 

Again, I suspect Phillips's "evidence" is about as good as Grant Palmer's "evidence" from the conveniently-anonymous General Authority and former mission president, respectively.  Meeting minimal evidentiary requirements for a case to be allowed to proceed prior to trial is one thing: meeting the highest standard in existence in order to prevail in a criminal trial (proof beyond a reasonable doubt) is quite another.

Reviewing the above comment from Mr. Phillip's (quoted in Juliann's post) plus other quotes I've read in the articles (in one he claimed that Pres Monson would have to proof that these "statements" were true), it would seem that Mr. Phillip's has not taken legal advice about the criminal law, evidence and procedure, he is being very disingenous in his interviews or the whole point of this is not to have an actual trial but to cause a storm of publicity to denigrate the Church.

 

I grow increasingly disappointed that the "Honourable" District Judge signed this and my cynicism is growing.  I apologise on behalf of the UK Criminal Legal System that it could be so (frankly) crass.

 

I also am disappointed how very little people understand about the Criminal Legal System.  For example, Pres Monson doesn't have to prove a thing.  If it goes to a trial, Mr Phillips will be the one who has to prove his case beyond reasonable doubt. 

 

There are so many possible ways to challenge it - and it can certainly still be dismissed for being frivolous whatever Mr. Phillips thinks the "Honourable" Judge thought about it.

[sheilauk]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

""Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

I think that this was the true aim - regardless of the outcome of the case.

 

Its not on the front page of the paper version, but there is an article several pages in in the Times today.  I checked.  But it doesn't appear to have been carried by the Telegraph in their paper version, not that I could find.

 

Sorry, should clarify - that's the UK papers.

Edited February 6, 2014 by sheilauk

[sheilauk]

 

I don't want anyone to hurt like so many have.  Yes, people do take their religion seriously and believe every word of it.  And put men on pedestals.  Even when they shouldn't.  I hope there will be a day that Mormon Think and places like it, don't need to exist.   

 

On Earth, that day will only come after the Second Coming.  Until then, life is about getting hurt - someone, somewhere will cause you pain, it is unavoidable.  Leave the Church (or never join a Church) and you'll still get hurt.  You will only find happiness when you stop allowing others to hurt you and take responsibility for your own feelings and actions.  And this applies whether or not you are LDS, in any church or not a believer.  Understanding, forgiveness and moving on are the only ways to get over pain and to not be hurt.  Constantly rubbing the wound does not bring healing.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes it is someone that members of this board would easily recognize...but it was said to me in confidence and I'm not going to out this person...

 

 

Just wondering what sort of "church apologist" would say flat out to a critic that if the Church were honest about its beginnings nobody would join it.

 

And if he/she sincerely believes that, why say it in confidence?

 

The whole thing sounds fishy to me. Again, if it happened at all, I think you are garbling the person's intended meaning.

 

 

The apologist and I are actually very good friends...we just agree to disagree regarding church truth claims...and yes I believe the comment was tongue in cheek...as it was offered with a chuckle...

 

 

Hmmmmm....so why would you leave that out? Seems a vital omission. Weren't you jumping all over a Church essay a few days ago for a far less vital omission. There you wanted a relatively insignificant detail included. Then you leave out that what you were quoting was a joke. No consistency at all.

 

Very sad.

So it's just as I suspected.

 

I should think such a blatant out-of-context quotation of a comment made in jest and in confidence would be enough to strain most any friendship.

 

I don't know that disclosing the identity of the source while doing so would be much worse.

[Alan]

As a fellow Englishman, this Tom Phillips bloke is just an embarassment.

A good example of someone who can leave the church but can't then leave it alone.

In my view, a complete plonker.

[Duncan]

As a fellow Englishman, this Tom Phillips bloke is just an embarassment.

A good example of someone who can leave the church but can't then leave it alone.

In my view, a complete plonker.

 

 

plonker, that's funny-we have a 'sista' missionary in our ward from Liverpool and she has said that word before!haha! of course we can only guess what it means...

[sheilauk]

In my view, a complete plonker.

 

Plonker = buffoon, idiot, stupid.  Usually said in an endearing way to family and friends!  (The English love to insult each other)

[stemelbow]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

 

They are going for any scraps they can get.  There's something weird about doing what they are doing, something disingenuous, full of sophistry.  Eh...what do you do?  Let it be, I guess.  They may win some people to their side, and they may end up drawing some to the faith due to their anger--causing people to say "wait a second, what kind of goonery are they up to? Who wants any part of that? The opposite of their life seems most appropriate to me".   

 

We might as well accept it as a means to attract more people who will join us.  They're doing us another favor.  But they won't know that.  They'll see it as they want to.  They'll trumpet from the rooftops how they made the LDS Church change something. They'll continue to spout how more people are viewing their sight.  They'll continue to refer to the day when the brave Tom Phillips dared to attempt to charge President Monson for fraud (no doubt they'll continue to bluster about a fraud conviction too).  Forever and ever people will leave the Church and they'll take the credit. 

 

Probably not wise for me to point out, but it reminds me of that mormonstories guy who continues to take credit for bringing down the "old school apologists" that he hated so much. 

 

Seriously what a pile of goons. 

[Avatar4321]

Ah, well.  I wouldn't expect any private citizen with the cojones to bring a criminal prosecution in a jurisdiction where that's possible to say anything less (especially since, if one is going to comment publicly at all, he hardly wants to hurt his chances by downplaying them), and I wouldn't expect the Tribune to not quote him when he does (particularly not when the Defendant in the case is the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).  Mr. Phillips' accomplishment in the case brings to mind the old saying about a prosecutor being able to indict a ham sandwich (though I hasten to add that I'm certainly not comparing President Monson to a ham sandwich ... except that each is roughly equally culpable of criminal wrongdoing [which is to say, not culpable in the least]).  

 

Since, if I understand previous contributions to the thread discussing the legalities involved correctly, Phillips must prove that President Monson made knowing false statements, it will be interesting to see what evidence Phillips has of that element.  (I suspect that, in both quantity and quality, Phillips's evidence regarding President Monson's alleged knowing falsity is about as good as Grant Palmer's that the Apostles "know" the Church is false, but it took poor Dieter longer to catch on because he was an outsider).

 

As distasteful as this circus is likely to be on some levels, I hope I can be forgiven for having the same reaction to it that one has to a train wreck: not wanting to watch, but being too fascinated to look away. If nothing else, depending on how far the case is allowed to proceed, I think judges, lawyers, and legal observers in common law jurisdictions everywhere will glean valuable, "close second-hand" lessons about precisely why it is that courts are poor fora for adjudicating claimed grievances that arise out of religious truth claims.   Even granting, for the sake of discussion, that the Church of Jesus Christ wronged Phillips, not every wrong (no matter how egregious the wrong claimed) has an adequate legal remedy.  And surely the trier of fact who will be charged with deciding this case must know that even if Phillips has nearly unassailable evidence (which I highly doubt; how could he, and if he did, where could he possibly have gotten it?), it would set a very bad precedent (from both a policy and a legal standpoint) if that trier of fact were to find President Monson guilty of fraud.

 

has he even met President Monson? I'd have a hard time believing someone you've never met defrauded you.

 

He would also have to prove that anyone used those specific arguments to convince someone to pay tithing? I've never heard anyone use the Book of Abraham to convince people to pay tithing. Usually it's either Malachi or D&C sections. And he never alleges either of those are false.

[Avatar4321]

So not only is this twit expecting it to go to a jury trial, he's poisoning the well in advance in case the jury finds against him.

 

What's he going to say if the courts summarily toss it out before it goes anywhere, as the experts are predicting?

 

Well clearly we bought off the judge.

[Avatar4321]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

 

Every time you kick ‘Mormonism’ you kick it upstairs; you never kick it downstairs. The Lord Almighty so orders it. - Brigham Young

 

Have faith. even this will bring salvation to many.

[ALarson]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

Well, that's unfortunate.  I had hoped this would just quietly blow over with minimal coverage and maximum ridicule for Tom Phillips and his crew.  Sigh.  I still think their celebration will be short lived. 

[The Nehor]

I have felt this whole thing was ridiculous as others have on here and that it would just be dismissed and forgotten about but I just read that the associated press has picked it up and it'll be in all major news outlets tomorrow (I hope that's wrong). Either way, this is not good for the church. MormonThink had a huge day...their biggest day ever by far. Here's something just posted that I saw:

"The internet is plastered with pictures of Monson under the words "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," and you see this a a "huge victory". Don't you see? Your imaginary little online battle between the apologists and the exmos doesn't matter. Some of the bat**** crazy claims by the church are plastered on the pages of some of the largest newspapers in the world under the headline "FRAUD" - that's what matters, gentlemen. And you think that the mopologists should be celebrating some kind of victory over MormonThink? Are you that naïve?"

"When a doubting member goes looking for information about this lawsuit, they will go looking for answers where they can find them and they won't even know about your insignificant opinion of the source. When a new investigator goes to Google and reads "Mormon Leader Accused of Fraud," they won't give a tinker's **** what anyone thinks of MormonThink or Tom Phillips. Huge victory indeed. It's a victory for bringing attention to the church's claims on a stage that now spans the country and the Atlantic. The Times of London. The Washington Post. USA Today. The Telegraph. Who knows who'll pick the story up over night, even just for the sensationalism. Regardless of where it goes from now, those headlines are written in permanent ink, and they will pop up a million times a day on computer screens the world over whenever someone types "mormon church" into Google."

"However this ends up playing out in the legal arena, what Phillips has done is create a loud enough racket to draw the world's attention to Mormon theology - if only for a moment. That's no victory for you or for the church. And MormonThink? 800,000 hits in a single day? That's nearly 20% of the church's entire active population. It's nearly four times as many new converts the church gains in an entire YEAR. You think those visitors are leaving MormonThink saying to themselves "well that's not an objective source of information at all! I'll be sure to get my information on Mormonism from a much more reputable place!" What you see as a tainted website, many of those 800,000 probably bookmarked today as a source of information that isn't intimidated by the Mormon church hierarchy."

"Pardon my directness, but what you now think of Tom Phillips or his website doesn't matter anymore, if it ever did. Say what you will of Phillips, but he just put the Mormon Church's embarrassing dirty laundry on the front page of the Times of London. In a very significant way, he's already landed a very public punch to the face of the church."

Oh noes!!!!!!!

People looked at a website and saw an accusation of fraud when they clicked on a link on a news website. Forgotten tomorrow. This will only be a public punch if it goes to trial and the plonker wins which is not going to happen.

I honestly hope they did read the charges of fraud. Far from being a black eye they make the plaintiff look like an idiot which is a fair assessment.

[Kenngo1969]

has he even met President Monson? I'd have a hard time believing someone you've never met defrauded you.

I'm not, in any way, saying that this scenario is comparable to Phillips laying a criminal charge of fraud against President Monson, but ...  There is no shortage of cases in which company higher-ups are charged with fraud committed by underlings even though the victim of the fraud has no contact with the higher ups. To use an analogy, merely amputating an extremity won't deal adequately with the criminal conduct charged: the head must be cut off.

 

 

 

He would also have to prove that anyone used those specific arguments to convince someone to pay tithing? I've never heard anyone use the Book of Abraham to convince people to pay tithing. Usually it's either Malachi or D&C sections. And he never alleges either of those are false.

Indeed.  An astute observation.