Is It Time To Change The Way We Do Sacrament Meeting?

[CA Steve]

Thank goodness for smart devices!

[cinepro]

That's funny because I've always suspected that the reason they assign such talks is to tell us what was said ... for the benefit of those who took the weekend off during conference.

 

If that's the case, then honestly we should just roll out the projector and play the talk.  

Giving a "talk" about a "talk" is about the dumbest thing I can think of.  It would be one thing to say "Brother Cinepro, your topic is Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy, and if possible, we'd like you to incorporate some of the ideas shared by Elder Gillespie in the October 2000 General Conference."

 

It's another thing to say "Brother Cinepro, we'd like you to talk about Brother Gillespie's talk".

 

Although that does give me a brilliant idea.  The next time I'm asked to give a talk or lesson about a talk, I'm going to actually give a talk or lesson about the talk.  I'll start with a bio of the speaker, then describe the situation in which he may have prepared his remarks.  I'll then describe the conference, including the other things that were discussed, as well as the weather and world conditions at the time.  I'll also discuss the manner in which he gave the talk, including what he was wearing, what the flower arrangements looked like, who was conducting, etc.  I'll then end by noting any reactions or follow up to the talk or conference.  

 

It will actually be a talk about a talk.

Edited January 24, 2014 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

Although that does give me a brilliant idea.  The next time I'm asked to give a talk or lesson about a talk, I'm going to actually give a talk or lesson about the talk.  I'll start with a bio of the speaker, then describe the situation in which he may have prepared his remarks.  I'll then describe the conference, including the other things that were discussed, as well as the weather and world conditions at the time.  I'll also discuss the manner in which he gave the talk, including what he was wearing, what the flower arrangements looked like, who was conducting, etc.  I'll then end by noting any reactions or follow up to the talk or conference.  

 

It will actually be a talk about a talk.

 

I have to give a talk referencing a General Conference talk on Sunday and I am seriously toying with doing this.

[cinepro]

I have to give a talk referencing a General Conference talk on Sunday and I am seriously toying with doing this.

 

Just pretend it was the King Follett discourse or the Gettysburg address.  By the time your talk is over, they'll think it was

[Calm]

. How about assigning the entire congregation to prepare the talks but only calling on three or four of the members to actually do the speaking?

I think numbers might drop significantly. It is one thing to know you are doomed and accept your fate, it is another to be wondering if this will be the day you die or not.

[mormonnewb]

I have to give a talk referencing a General Conference talk on Sunday and I am seriously toying with doing this.

Just so long as you record it and put it up on the board for the rest of us to enjoy.

[The Nehor]

How about assigning the entire congregation to prepare the talks but only calling on three or four of the members to actually do the speaking?

 

We did this on my mission for a 5 minute talk in Zone Conference. It did not work well. We would prep it while we were waiting for the meeting to start if we even did.

 

I would be okay with this but I know many who would not be. There are people who spend 3-6 hours prepping a Sacrament Meeting talk and write the whole thing down and practice it. I write a few notes on a piece of scrap paper (if that) and improvise. To the 3-6 hour preparers you are looking at eating up a lot of their time every week.

[The Nehor]

The "problem" with our services is that we ask people to get up and give a talk with absolutely no training or guidance. Most people presumably figure out what they're supposed to do after attending enough meetings, but if we're learning only by what we see, then nothing will ever change.

For example, I've been asked to speak probably 15 times since I turned 12, and not once have they told me how long the talk should be. That's a pretty basic component of a public presentation, but I've never been told "Brother Cinepro, we would like you to speak two weeks from now, and your remarks should be about 15 minutes in length." I'm usually just given a general subject and date, and that's it. Based on the number of different wards I've been in, I'm assuming this is the general practice.  It's just odd to me that the Bishopric sits down at the start of the meeting, and they have 3 or 4 speakers lined up, and no one knows how long those speakers have prepared to speak.  It's just faith in the abilities of the last speaker to be flexible that we'll finish about 70 minutes later.

Since the Church has decided that nearly all of the "preaching" in our meetings will be done by random members of the ward (and visiting High Councilors), it is odd that we don't have a week or two each year in Sunday School or 5th Sunday where we are told what is expected for Sacrament Meeting talks, along with some general tips on how to prepare. At the very least, there should be handout with guidelines given with each assignment.

 

 

That's odd. I was always given a rough time frame. Occasionally I think I asked for one and got it but I always had one. Usually I ask the other speakers before the meeting begins so I know how much time to leave for those speaking after me. If not stopped I can go on forever.

[3DOP]

Maybe we could have the bishop bless the sacrament by himself, with his back to the audience, and do it in a foreign language to spice it up a little.

 

Throw in some Gregorian chant and incense, and memorized prayers, always the same every Sunday.

 

Maybe that's the ticket!

 

It is not impossible that some principles of worship could be borrowed from your Catholic neighbors. Obviously, there are some things we do that will be distinct to us because of our unique beliefs about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. But you could adapt some of our ideas. We have been at this for nearly 2,000 years. I know we were still working things out when we were only two hundred years old, but then the dust begins to settle a bit. I am afraid bukowski was being sarcastic, (no apologies necessary Mark. I am not offended.) but you could do worse than learn something from us. You guys sound like you used to be Protestants. Sing some songs, then start talking. Have some extempore prayer in between. I was a pastor. The need to sound original in prayer became burdensome to me. What is wrong with thinking about it an advance, knowing how you want to be thankful, praiseful, and make some proper intercessory prayers. That is why there is a benefit in knowing what you will pray in advance. If you believe that the Spirit is present in such a way as to inspire every or at least many of the extempore prayers then you probably need to stick with that. But I don't think the Holy Ghost gets forgotten in the prayers of the Mass.

 

So for what it is worth, I thought maybe I should highlight the references bukowski made to the Mass, and explain the meanings from a Catholic point of view.  

 

Bukowski is referring to the practice in the Traditional or Tridentine Rite of the Mass, where the priest faces Christ (as we say we believe) on the altar. Priest and people face God together, united in prayer.

 

Latin is not just any foreign language. It is a language that unites those who pray as one in the same tongue. There is no need for breaking up into ethnic groups for Mass. We all learn to pray in the same language. A Catholic can go anywhere in the world, from South America to South Korea and hear a priest with a slightly distinctive accent say those old familiar words.

 

Well done chant can be very uplifting, but most folks have the option of going to "low Mass" if they have some odd aversion to chant. Incense is used only in the Sung Mass, with chant. High Mass, or Sung Mass is ordinarily reserved for Holy days. Of course every Sunday is holy!

 

There is a liturgical assembly in the Book of Revelation where the prayers of the saints are represented by incense. It was revealed to Moses in the Book of Exodus that incense was to be used in the sacrificial offerings. It was during "the hour of incense" that it was revealed to the father of John the Baptist that he would have a son. We are physical beings and God does not expect our worship to be an exclusively mental experience. Proper worship engages the senses as well as the intellect and permits us to worship God in a way that is fully human. As we see the smoke ascend and we smell the lovely scents, we are reminded that there is nothing more precious that we can give to God than our prayers. A disembodied spirit can think about what people are talking about. But proper worship engages our brains and our bodies.

 

The Roman "canon" of the Mass is always the same. Its beautiful. It goes back beyond known memory. Although we know there have been slight adjustments here and there, the essential form has remained as always. Believing as we do that the form is of apostolic origin, there is more than reluctance to the idea of "winging" it. It is impossible that anyone could monkey around with something as sacred as the canon. The secret prayers as they are called are said in a lower tone by the priest which is inaudible to all. This is foreshadowed we believe, as with so many other rituals, in the Book of Exodus and that "hour of incense", and when the priest goes alone into the Holy of holies to pray for the people, while the people pray with and for the priest. Obviously, the prayers differ according to the different rites within the Church. American Catholics are mostly Roman rite. Other rites reflect the apostolic origins as they were experienced in other places where the apostles labored. This is why the Church has never suppressed an authentic liturgical rite of any origin. To one who appreciates the diverse riches to be found everywhere liturgically, for a liturgical rite to become extinct is unthinkable. It would be worse than killing the last of the most noble and admirable species in God's creation.

 

But other diverse prayers change not merely every Sunday but every day! There is a different Introit, Collect, Gradual, Offertory, Secret, Communion, and Postcommunion every day of the week. Each of these reflects a different sentiment or meditation based on the times, seasons, and the very day. Formal worship allows, and even requires many rich variations to always take place. If you aren't paying close attention at any given Mass, you will certainly miss something important.

 

The thing is, you can go as deep as you want. For those with limited capabilities like children and those with learning disabilities it provides an important sense of order. The most rowdy kids will usually shape up when the bell rings out of the deep silence to announce that something very profound is at hand. I am sometimes distracted at Mass too. But not willfully. I know in my heart that this is by any measure the most important event taking place anywhere in the city where I live, and while the good God is pleased with my intention, and blesses me no matter, I want very much for every Mass to be more fervent than my last. God helping me, I make slow progress. It seems more like two steps forward and one back. But God knows and I know He loves me in my frailty. You know we believe that the saints and angels in heaven are spellbound by the Mass, and then here we are, able to receive the graces, and we get distracted. Heh. Sometimes it can help to imagine all the angels that aren't visible perfectly worshipping and adoring with us. (That's why we have adoring angel statues above the altar at our church.)

 

So anyway, I could just go on and on. I guess my point is that anybody can mock what they don't understand, and again I don't mean you bukowski. Thanks for giving me something that I love to talk about. I have heard dismissals of Catholic worship forms because "those people just like smells and bells." Yeah. Is there something with having something that you like in your worship? Maybe "smells and bells" (meaning more physicality in worship) deserves more consideration than Mormons have given to it before. In any case, those who appreciate formal liturgy can only feel sorry for those who haven't properly experienced the movement of the Holy Ghost in association with liturgical worship.

 

For what it is worth,

 

3DOP     

Edited January 25, 2014 by 3DOP

[strappinglad]

we already have fast and testimony once a mouth

welcome to the conversation Mr. Freud ! ( sorry, couldn't resist . )

There is a pattern. 2 youth talks 2-5 minutes each . 2 adult talks 10-20 minutes each, and the last talk should be accordianable. It's tough to assign and be precise because , even those who prepare will sometimes be nervous and talk way faster than normal and leave an extra few minutes to be filled by the next speaker. Mind you, as a gospel doctrine teacher, it never hurt to have a little extra time to tackle a topic. Heaven forbid the previous meeting was shorter than normal.

Edited January 25, 2014 by strappinglad

[cinepro]

The best "guidance" I was ever given regarding Church talks (from my dad):

 

"Get up, tell them what you're going to say, say it, tell them what you said, and sit down."

 

The second best advice (not from my dad, can't remember where I'd heard this):

 

"Your talk should be like a prom dress.  Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting."

 

Ironically, that advice was given about a talk on modesty...

[Avatar4321]

one of my pet peeves is when they assign a general conference talk to someone. It's nice to hear talks from conference but I already know what Elder H. Ott Flashpepperpants of the Seventy thinks on the subject, I wanna know what you think. I get though that new people are nervous and don't know what's appropriate and that's fine but seasoned members? 

 

It's even worse when they read the conference talk verbatim

[Avatar4321]

We did this on my mission for a 5 minute talk in Zone Conference. It did not work well. We would prep it while we were waiting for the meeting to start if we even did.

 

I would be okay with this but I know many who would not be. There are people who spend 3-6 hours prepping a Sacrament Meeting talk and write the whole thing down and practice it. I write a few notes on a piece of scrap paper (if that) and improvise. To the 3-6 hour preparers you are looking at eating up a lot of their time every week.

 

Not really. You spend time preparing a talk on a subject or several different subjects. Then when you're called on you give one of several subjects without worrying. You only have to do it once and then you can change things on the spot as the spirit prompts you.

[Calm]

Anxiety drives the Spirit away. Hard to be prompted under such circumstances. I prefer to rely on being prompted when I am capable of listening to it.

[Avatar4321]

Anxiety drives the Spirit away. Hard to be prompted under such circumstances. I prefer to rely on being prompted when I am capable of listening to it.

 

If you are prepared ye shall not fear.

[Calm]

Ha! I can give a lesson on pretty much any subject ever in a church lesson manual off the top of my head to anyone under the age of 14 probably, I can sit down and write an epic requiring only minor revisions as long as I can sit up and sometimes lying down.

I cannot get up in front of any group of adults over the size of one without fear. Not after decades of doing it, even the thought still makes me sick to my stomach.

If God didn't want me to be afraid, he shouldn't have made me terminally shy (though I am very willing to consider it may be part of my eternal nature, especially since it appears to be unique in my family incuding extended save for my daughter)

Edited January 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

It's even worse when they read the conference talk verbatim

 

 

that's when I get the urge to colour purple circles on my arms and have to see the doctor again

[The Nehor]

It's even worse when they read the conference talk verbatim

 

I walk out of classes when they do that.

 

 

Not really. You spend time preparing a talk on a subject or several different subjects. Then when you're called on you give one of several subjects without worrying. You only have to do it once and then you can change things on the spot as the spirit prompts you.

 

Doesn't work unless the Bishopric hands out different subjects to different people and cycles through them (and you know you are out of the woods for a long time once someone else talks about repentance) or you do the same topic over and over again.

 

 

If you are prepared ye shall not fear.

 

Out of context with that scripture; it doesn't work that way. That scripture is about coping with world events, conspiracies, and calamities instilling terror. Public speaking anxiety is more primal. It is probably animalistic. There is an animal advantage to fearing being watched; predators stare at their prey. The normal responses are to flee or to fight. Running is socially awkward; attacking the audience even more so.

 

I used to be terrified of public speaking. I have dulled the anxiety but not everyone can. I have a friend who speaks in front of an audience pretty much every week. He has learned to mask it but he is terrified every time. I would not feel right putting that fear into someone every week to no purpose.

[Bernard Gui]

I wondered what people think of the way we currently "do" sacrament meeting. What I mean by this is the regimentation, the lack of spontanaity (sic), the dullness, the funeral durge type hymns (many of them), the frequently awful talks etc.

According to the D&C we should conduct our meetings according to the dictates of the Spirit, but I find in reality we don't do that. Is it time this was looked at?

 

Now, before anyone states the obvious, I am not talking about the centrality of the sacrament itself. That is taken as read. I'm talking about what happens next.

 

For example, should we encourage preaching rather than talks?

Perhaps more modern hymns and music should be introduced?

Perhaps we should not assign speakers all the time and just "let the holy spirit guide"?

 

I would be particularly interested to hear the comments of those who have experience of both LDS and other churches meetings, including converts who have gone either way.

An easier solution would be to attend our sacrament meetings in Washington.

[Calm]

I walk out of classes when they do that.

I recommend that you develop a good movement disorder as then when you walk out of class people look at you with sympathy instead of daggers. I would highly recommend restless legs syndrome as there are no current medical tests for it, it is all on self report, it even has a respectable name now Willis Ekbom Disease (I have not been impressed by those who take it upon themselves to name this stuff). Just stay up a couple of nights playing video games to get the proper haggard look, make sure you are constantly squirming in your seat or rocking back and forth and jumping ever now and then as if someone stuck a needle in you...and above all else don't fall asleep in church as that would be a dead giveaway....rlsers never fall asleep when we are supposed to, only when we aren't.

 

. I would not feel right putting that fear into someone every week to no purpose.

I knew there was a reason why I liked you.

[Calm]

If you are prepared ye shall not fear.

Have you ever been even completely prepared for something, done all you had to do, incuding prayer and blessings and still been fearful, unable to feel in control. If you haven't, appreciate that you have been given one of the great blessings of life. If there was only one thing I could remove from my life it would be anxiety...

[Tacenda]

I recommend that you develop a good movement disorder as then when you walk out of class people look at you with sympathy instead of daggers. I would highly recommend restless legs syndrome as there are no current medical tests for it, it is all on self report, it even has a respectable name now Willis Ekbom Disease (I have not been impressed by those who take it upon themselves to name this stuff). Just stay up a couple of nights playing video games to get the proper haggard look, make sure you are constantly squirming in your seat or rocking back and forth and jumping ever now and then as if someone stuck a needle in you...and above all else don't fall asleep in church as that would be a dead giveaway....rlsers never fall asleep when we are supposed to, only when we aren't.

I knew there was a reason why I liked you.

I love this post! So funny, Cal you're on one tonight, or this morning. ETA: ran out of posts. Look up Cal, who or what would do those things to you Cal? Edited January 25, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Meds are a wonderful thing, Tac,what more needs to be said...plus watching Hellboy put me in a much better mood all around...there are good reasons to be stuck in bed. That way I am not getting my head ripped off, toasted by blue fire or having baby demon eggs laid in me.

[Alan]

Some interesting responses.

When I was less active a number of years ago, I visited quite a few different churches in the area. These ranged from outright pentecostal "dancing in the aisles" type churches, through various evangelical shades, and on to Baptist, Methodist, Church of England (Anglican) and Catholic. It was an interesting experience and it lasted about 5 years.

There was one service I would go to quite regularly at the Church of England which was really great. It had a good mix of traditional and contemporary styles, nothing too loud and irreverent but also not too dull and regimented. And it introduced me to a new experience............. actually being disappointed the service was over, wishing it could have lasted longer, and looking forward to returning next week.

This is something I have never, ever, felt in our church in 40 years of membership (convert at 14).

Did I feel the Spirit? Yes I did. I can still remember the words that were said and the way I felt when the vicar spoke about the Prodigal Son. It was moving to say the least!

All I know is that they had something in their meeting that we don't have.

 

Now, when we read of the early church in Kirtland and elsewhere, we find that the services were much more spirit led, often entirely spontaneous, full of preaching and vibrant singing etc. It seems to me we lost our way somewhere along the line. Nowadays we have a "programme"; we have a set liturgy in a way. Announcements, OH, OP, Business, SH, Sacrament, 1st speaker (usually a youth reading a story from the New Era), 2nd speaker, IH, final speaker, CH, CP. It drives me to distraction!

 

We regularly get investigators coming to our sacrament meeting and never returning, and I can't say I blame them.

 

And while I'm on the subject, it really is now time in my view, to modify the 3 hour block to 2 hours. We don't need two lesson sessions.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Alan

[thatjimguy]

As a convert, I can say that there have been times where things seemed dry, but I think that it comes from the people generally.

 

If a song sound real bad, people are not singing (mainly because its a song no one really knows, a weird one was picked.)

 

Talks are talks. Some people are good at it. Some people aren't. The worst talks are those that are, for all intents and purposes, someone else's talk "Elder Bednar said......"

 

As much as I think it is good that so many resources are availble to help people make a talk, more emphasis should be made to make sure each makes a talk their own.

 

As far as music. I'm torn. As much as I think other songs would be good, I do know the reason that some are in my head at times of trouble and such is because the same ones are repeated so much.

 

I have also heard other versions of the songs without the organ. I think that is why it sounds like a funeral sometimes. I swear I can see Bela Lagosi playing the keys sometimes.

Edited January 25, 2014 by thatjimguy