Duncan Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Do you think that say Pope Francis or Pope John Paul ll or really any of them were foreordained to do that? When I say foreordained to me that means God wants them to do that role or calling and sets up their life to make it so-thank you!
thesometimesaint Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Could be. I think valid arguments can be made either way. But I certain don't know what God knows 3
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 With the definition used by LDS, no. With your definition, a definite maybe.Foreordination is limited to Priesthood holders. It does not necessarily imply foreordination to every office and priesthood calling you ever hold. It does mean that if you hold the Priesthood in this life there was an ordinance performed before you were born to qualify you for the priesthood. 1
BlueDreams Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Specifically foreordained to be pope? I'm not God, but I'd probably lean toward no. After all, you mention 2 undoubtedly great and spiritual men who in their own ways exemplified Christ above and beyond many. But what about the Pope in-between...the one that just didn't fit the pope role 100% and resigned? I don't think he was meant to fail but the papal shoe just didn't fit him well...not that he failed his foreordained call or that there was some divine edict set before the earth began that he would be pope. But I do think that all of us are foreordained to exemplify God/light of Christ in our spheres. All of us. I think Pope is just another sphere of influence that these men find themselves in in their day. One that they appear to have done very, very well. With luv,BD 2
Duncan Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 With the definition used by LDS, no. With your definition, a definite maybe.Foreordination is limited to Priesthood holders. It does not necessarily imply foreordination to every office and priesthood calling you ever hold. It does mean that if you hold the Priesthood in this life there was an ordinance performed before you were born to qualify you for the priesthood. I am LDS born and raised in the chapel and bishop's office is where I spent most of my days 1
daz2 Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Why not? I conceive of foreordination as akin to a patriarchal blessing we received before being born, and not limited to possible ordination to priesthood office.
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I am LDS born and raised in the chapel and bishop's office is where I spent most of my daysFasting and praying and Home Teaching all cool and shooting some B-ball out in the hall. 1
Duncan Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 Fasting and praying and Home Teaching all cool and shooting some B-ball out in the hall. you talk my language
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Why not? I conceive of foreordination as akin to a patriarchal blessing we received before being born, and not limited to possible ordination to priesthood office.I base this on a talk where President Kimball talked about priesthood holders being foreordained and assignments given and women being given specific individual tasks and responsibilities suggesting that foreordination is linked with priesthood.
thesometimesaint Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I base this on a talk where President Kimball talked about priesthood holders being foreordained and assignments given and women being given specific individual tasks and responsibilities suggesting that foreordination is linked with priesthood. I don't know how far we can take that. As a convert to the Church it maybe was in Gods' wisdom(foreordination) that I didn't join until I was 20 instead of being born in the Church.
Bob Crockett Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I think many of the Borgia popes were foreordained. Good men.
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I don't know how far we can take that. As a convert to the Church it maybe was in Gods' wisdom(foreordination) that I didn't join until I was 20 instead of being born in the Church.I do not doubt God is doing all kinds of really smart things that do not relate to foreordination. His plans run deeper then we can conceive of but foreordination involves ordaining which in the LDS language including the scriptures describes Priesthood functions specifically.
3DOP Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 This might be a little off the thread topic but I would like to make an observation about the love affair the world is having with Pope Francis. It truly amazes me when non-Catholics speak like they have any idea about what makes a good pope. Having no attachment to Catholic Tradition, doctrines, practices, or customs how in the world can non-Catholics give a judgment on what a pope should be like? Non-Catholics just know they like a pope the less Catholic he seems and they dislike a pope that reminds them of the popes of the first 1,925 years of the Catholic Church. 264 popes and who is most popular among non-Catholics? The one that resembles the first 259 the least. 1
bluebell Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 This might be a little off the thread topic but I would like to make an observation about the love affair the world is having with Pope Francis. It truly amazes me when non-Catholics speak like they have any idea about what makes a good pope. Having no attachment to Catholic Tradition, doctrines, practices, or customs how in the world can non-Catholics give a judgment on what a pope should be like? Non-Catholics just know they like a pope the less Catholic he seems and they dislike a pope that reminds them of the popes of the first 1,925 years of the Catholic Church. 264 popes and who is most popular among non-Catholics? The one that resembles the first 259 the least. Are you suggesting that the current pope is more beloved of non-Catholics than members of the Catholic church?
Storm Rider Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I remain more of an admirer of John Paul II than of Francis, though I am still waiting on making a decision on Francis. As far as ordination goes, I think God is active in all religions and all sources of truth. 2
erdoch Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I don't know if I think the Pope was foreordained or not, but I do not believe that foreordination only has to do with the Priesthood.
rpn Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) How could someone be foreordained to something the Lord didn't Himself plan for and set up? It is a manmade construct. Edited December 18, 2013 by rpn 1
3DOP Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Are you suggesting that the current pope is more beloved of non-Catholics than members of the Catholic church? No.
bluebell Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I don't know if I think the Pope was foreordained or not, but I do not believe that foreordination only has to do with the Priesthood. According to lds.org, the definition of to ordain is-to appoint or confer authority or office. It is always used in connection with getting the priesthood, so it makes sense that some people would interpret 'fore-ordination' as also dealing exclusively with the priesthood. I'm not sure i agree with that either though.
bluebell Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 No. Sorry if i misunderstood you. Would you prefer that non-Catholics have no opinion at all on the pope? (sincere question).
pogi Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 This might be a little off the thread topic but I would like to make an observation about the love affair the world is having with Pope Francis. It truly amazes me when non-Catholics speak like they have any idea about what makes a good pope. Having no attachment to Catholic Tradition, doctrines, practices, or customs how in the world can non-Catholics give a judgment on what a pope should be like? Non-Catholics just know they like a pope the less Catholic he seems and they dislike a pope that reminds them of the popes of the first 1,925 years of the Catholic Church. 264 popes and who is most popular among non-Catholics? The one that resembles the first 259 the least. You are right, we are judging him based upon the Christian beliefs and principles that we believe in, and not upon the traditions and culture of the Catholic church. I don't know a lot about what a pope should be like, but I wonder if a lot of the "should's" are not based purely on culture and tradition rather than doctrine. Has he done anything contrary to what the doctrine of the church specifies a pope should be like? I assume that the most qualifying characteristic of a pope is that he should be Christ-like. This pope strikes me as very Christ-like. He is not as concerned with the image of his position despite the expectations of men(much like Christ) as he seems to be about living like Christ lived.
theplains Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 According to lds.org, the definition of to ordain is-to appoint or confer authority or office. It is always used in connection with getting the priesthood, so it makes sense that some people would interpret 'fore-ordination' as also dealing exclusively with the priesthood. Based on this definition, the pope could not be foreordained in a valid way because,according to LDS teachings, he has no authority to act in God's name because hedoes not possess a valid priesthood. Regards,Jim
3DOP Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Sorry if i misunderstood you. Would you prefer that non-Catholics have no opinion at all on the pope? (sincere question)I am not saying that what you proposed is wrong. I was just denying that I suggested it. As for your question, I expect non-Catholics to have opinions about the popes. My cousin, who doesn't have a clue about religion of any kind came over for a barbecue and my son, who is receiving instruction for the priesthood, was present in his cassock. I am sure my dear cousin thought we would be pleased that he thinks we finally have a good pope. We didn't try to explain any misgivings. Clearly, these non-Catholic supporters of the present pope don't like the pre-Vatican II popes. They don't even like Pope Benedict! The enthusiasm with which non-Catholics and liberal Catholics praise this pope raises red flags for me. I am reserving judgment in some respects, but when the world loves him, I don't think it is because of his firm adherence to Catholic Tradition. Do you? I think his popularity stems from words and actions that make it appear that the Catholic Church is distancing itself from the past. While I know popes have no authority to change church teaching or morals, and I will have peace about my own Catholic faith, it will cause great confusion. To be perfectly candid, I can not see how to adhere to the apparent beliefs of Pope Francis at the same time as I adhere to the Catholic Church of the first 19 and a half centuries. I don't expect much sympathy for my difficulty, but it seems like many LDS could understand it. If the Church was wrong until 1962, that would be apostasy. There are no non-Catholics and few Catholics who care about how to work out a dilemma like that in a way that is easily explained. They just want the one true apostolic church to join them in being modern. Seeing that the Catholic Church claims a continuous apostolic succession, to avoid the clearest proof of apostasy, it is essential to retain the unchanging Tradition of the past, and especially so when it conflicts with the passing novelties of the present. Edited December 18, 2013 by 3DOP 2
bluebell Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 I am not saying that what you proposed is wrong. I was just denying that I suggested it. As for your question, I expect non-Catholics to have opinions about the popes. My cousin, who doesn't have a clue about religion of any kind came over for a barbecue and my son, who is receiving instruction for the priesthood, was present in his cassock. I am sure my dear cousin thought we would be pleased that he thinks we finally have a good pope. We didn't try to explain any misgivings. Clearly, these non-Catholic supporters of the present pope don't like the pre-Vatican II popes. They don't even like Pope Benedict! The enthusiasm with which non-Catholics and liberal Catholics praise this pope raises red flags for me. I am reserving judgment in some respects, but when the world loves him, I don't think it is because of his firm adherence to Catholic Tradition. Do you? I think his popularity stems from words and actions that make it appear that the Catholic Church is distancing itself from the past. While I know popes have no authority to change church teaching or morals, and I will have peace about my own Catholic faith, it will cause great confusion. To be perfectly candid, I can not see how to adhere to the apparent beliefs of Pope Francis at the same time as I adhere to the Catholic Church of the first 19 and a half centuries. I don't expect much sympathy for my difficulty, but it seems like many LDS could understand it. If the Church was wrong until 1962, that would be apostasy. There are no non-Catholics and few Catholics who care about how to work out a dilemma like that in a way that is easily explained. They just want the one true apostolic church to join them in being modern. Seeing that the Catholic Church claims a continuous apostolic succession, to avoid the clearest proof of apostasy, it is essential to retain the unchanging Tradition of the past, and especially so when it conflicts with the passing novelties of the present. So, the Catholic church does not believe in continuing revelation? That some traditions can be wrong, without the Church being in apostasy? Is it impossible that sometimes in the past, the Catholic church 'saw through a glass darkly'? I'm not trying to make an argument in favor of such, i'm just really trying to understand how this all works in the Catholic church, as I really have no idea.
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