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"doubt Your Doubts Before You Doubt Your Faith"

Scott Lloyd

By Scott Lloyd
in General Discussions

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jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

It seems to me that it is you who is giving doubt a privileged place above faith.

Doubt does not hold a privileged place over faith. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin, so you can't doubt unless you have faith in something, and you can't have faith in something without doubt. Faith without doubt would be certainty, and doubt without faith would also be certainty.

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Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

Doubt does not hold a privileged place over faith. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin, so you can't doubt unless you have faith in something, and you can't have faith in something without doubt. Faith without doubt would be certainty, and doubt without faith would also be certainty.

I think what President Uchtdorf is saying (and I'll have to review the text of the talk to be sure) is don't let your doubts overcome the things that you know, including knowledge that may have come through the spiritual witness that always attends the exercise and development of faith.

 

I hold with that position.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

I think what President Uchtdorf is saying (and I'll have to review the text of the talk to be sure) is don't let your doubts overcome the things that you know, including knowledge that may have come through the spiritual witness that always attends the exercise and development of faith.

 

I hold with that position.

Like I said, I didn't hear the talk, but I read the summary and the OP, which is what I was going by.

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Like I said, I didn't hear the talk, but I read the summary and the OP, which is what I was going by.

I think it would behoove us all to go over the verbatim sermon when it is available.

Brian 2.0 Veteran

Brian 2.0

Posted
Posted (edited)

Great talk.

 

And this is from one of those doubters who has left activity.

 

He hit on a lot of great points you don't often hear:

 

- He said the assumption of "sin, offended, and lazy" isn't always the case.  There are plenty of other reasons it could be

- There are things in church history that could cause people to question

- Leaders in the past have made mistakes and have been wrong

- Someones agency in searching for truth could take them out of the church and we (believers) need to respect that agency just as we (believers) ask people to respect member's agency to believe.

 

Some of those points have been made before, but Uchdorf said it all at once, very clearly.   Much appreciated.

 

And as for the "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" line.  It's good advice.  Don't be so quick to lose your faith.

 

I know I doubted by doubts for years without doubting my faith.  Eventually my search did lead me to doubting my faith, but I don't even see that path as violating the quote from Uchdorf.  

 

As for his urging to "stay a little longer" or "come back"  that's where I am at this point.  I do love the people, the culture (the good parts), and it's my heritage -- it's easy to feel "at home" with Mormons.  I don't actually believe any longer and it seems that Uchdorf is saying that even that's okay (obviously hoping I will get back to belief) saying "there's room for me."  

 

I do want to try "going back" while feeling like I'm being "honest" with myself.  I'm fine with people knowing where I stand, but I'm not going to go up in testimony meeting and say, "FYI, I'm pretty much an atheist right now, just so you know."  So I'm sort of at this middle ground where the bishop knows, but everyone else in the congregation assumes I'm full believer and talks to me assuming as much, and I just kind of nod and say, "yeah" ... and that disconnect is what makes me feel like I'm "playing a part" when I go to church.

 

 I don't know.  I guess everyone would eventually figure it out as time went on and realized I wasn't wearing garments, etc.  Curious if anyone on this board is in that same position.

Edited by Brian 2.0
2
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

Me, I left because I decided I wanted to sin because I was offended when someone told me I never had a testimony in the first place. :)

 

As long as you picked the good sins I can support this.

Senator Grand Master

Senator

Posted
Posted

Members needed to hear that past leaders were not perfect. And current leaders also. It was a timely talk. Lets see how the exmembers say about it. His welcome to exmembers was wonderful.

 

I thought that comment was a Wow moment.  I can't recall such an admission in a church wide forum.  But I may have just missed them in the past.

bdouglas Proficient

bdouglas

Posted
Posted
"Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

 

"We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question." - Pres Uchtdorf

 

Thank you, Pres. Uchtdorf!
DBMormon Grand Master

DBMormon

Posted
Posted

You've been to the Temple, so you've got it.  In the Church, we're like Toyota: you ask for it, you've got it! ;)

I thought that was Burger King?  lol

J Green Community Regular

J Green

Posted
Posted

This was really nice to hear:It really doesn't help for people to tell those of us who have left why we left. It means a lot to me that President Uchtdorf understands that one can leave in good conscience for what they believe are good reasons.Me, I left because I decided I wanted to sin because I was offended when someone told me I never had a testimony in the first place. :)

You're not fooling me. You're a good man, and any here would be lucky to be counted among your friends.

And it's good to see you here.

Cheers

1
DBMormon Grand Master

DBMormon

Posted
Posted

Doubt does not hold a privileged place over faith. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin, so you can't doubt unless you have faith in something, and you can't have faith in something without doubt. Faith without doubt would be certainty, and doubt without faith would also be certainty.

I agree with this.  But we must be careful to not place doubt as the more important side of the coin.

 

Bro. Kirby (lds member who writes for SLtribune) said this

In the end we protect ourselves by believing only the truth we can handle and shouting "heresy" at anything we can’t. That’s not faith or God. That’s ego.

 

 

I agree with that greatly as well.  But in the end Faith should be the side of the coin facing up.

DBMormon Grand Master

DBMormon

Posted
Posted (edited)

Great talk.

 

And this is from one of those doubters who has left activity.

 

He hit on a lot of great points you don't often hear:

 

- He said the assumption of "sin, offended, and lazy" isn't always the case.  There are plenty of other reasons it could be

- There are things in church history that could cause people to question

- Leaders in the past have made mistakes and have been wrong

- Someones agency in searching for truth could take them out of the church and we (believers) need to respect that agency just as we (believers) ask people to respect member's agency to believe.

 

Some of those points have been made before, but Uchdorf said it all at once, very clearly.   Much appreciated.

 

And as for the "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" line.  It's good advice.  Don't be so quick to lose your faith.

 

I know I doubted by doubts for years without doubting my faith.  Eventually my search did lead me to doubting my faith, but I don't even see that path as violating the quote from Uchdorf.  

 

As for his urging to "stay a little longer" or "come back"  that's where I am at this point.  I do love the people, the culture (the good parts), and it's my heritage -- it's easy to feel "at home" with Mormons.  I don't actually believe any longer and it seems that Uchdorf is saying that even that's okay (obviously hoping I will get back to belief) saying "there's room for me."  

 

I do want to try "going back" while feeling like I'm being "honest" with myself.  I'm fine with people knowing where I stand, but I'm not going to go up in testimony meeting and say, "FYI, I'm pretty much an atheist right now, just so you know."  So I'm sort of at this middle ground where the bishop knows, but everyone else in the congregation assumes I'm full believer and talks to me assuming as much, and I just kind of nod and say, "yeah" ... and that disconnect is what makes me feel like I'm "playing a part" when I go to church.

 

 I don't know.  I guess everyone would eventually figure it out as time went on and realized I wasn't wearing garments, etc.  Curious if anyone on this board is in that same position.

 

You hit the nail on the head with your synopsis and your right, the talk was for you.  From one who empathizes very much with folks like you who have left after losing faith but deep down love the Church and the faith, I say Go back.  The Church needs you!!!

Edited by DBMormon
Garden Girl Grand Master

Garden Girl

Posted
Posted

I thought that comment was a Wow moment.  I can't recall such an admission in a church wide forum.  But I may have just missed them in the past.

 

There may have been intimations in the past, but nothing as clearly spoken as Pres Uchtdorf's wonderful talk... I agree... Wow...

 

GG

jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

I agree.

 

It's not a conversation I initiated -- though I suppose I can choose to bow out of it. I will do so.

 

I thought the thread was about the quote in the OP about how you should doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith, but apparently I am mistaken.

 

Watching the talk, my response as an intransigent apostate is that I appreciate the counsel from President Uchtdorf against assuming people leave because they want to sin or have chosen to follow Satan; that a leader of the church would extend that kindness and willingness to understand to someone like me touched me deeply. I hope very much that his expression of compassion and understanding will be embraced more broadly.So much misunderstanding and hard feelings could be avoided on all sides. 

1
jkwilliams Grand Master

jkwilliams

Posted
Posted

You're not fooling me. You're a good man, and any here would be lucky to be counted among your friends.

And it's good to see you here.

Cheers

 

Thanks, brother. It's nice to see you here, too. I'm glad we got to meet before I headed off into the unknown.

Kenngo1969 Grand Master

Kenngo1969

Posted
Posted

I thought that was Burger King?  lol

Nah.  BK is "Have it your way!" ;):D

omni Mentor

omni

Posted
Posted

Talks like this are why President Uchtdorf is undoubtedly the favorite apostle among the disaffected/NOM/doubters.

1
canard78 Grand Master

canard78

Posted
Posted
The church provides opportunities for doing good. Believing in God is commendable but most people want to do more than listen to inspirational sermons of dream of their mansions above they want to put their faith into practice... and that is what happens when they join with us. They have many opportunities to transform their talents, compassion and time into good works.

 

 

I also appreciated this message. It's not simply about working or waiting towards a mansion above. It's about affiliating with a community that gives me the opportunity to be a better me.

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