"doubt Your Doubts Before You Doubt Your Faith"

[The Nehor]

How about "doubt your doubts before they stop being doubts"?

 

But do you doubt the lack of doubt stemming from that doubt?

[The Nehor]

Talks like this are why President Uchtdorf is undoubtedly the favorite apostle among the disaffected/NOM/doubters.

 

And why he is despised and ostracized by the faithful.

[omni]

And why he is despised and ostracized by the faithful.

Huh? I didnt know he was.

Edited October 6, 2013 by omni

[escott3564]

Great talk.

 

And this is from one of those doubters who has left activity.

 

He hit on a lot of great points you don't often hear:

 

- He said the assumption of "sin, offended, and lazy" isn't always the case.  There are plenty of other reasons it could be

- There are things in church history that could cause people to question

- Leaders in the past have made mistakes and have been wrong

- Someones agency in searching for truth could take them out of the church and we (believers) need to respect that agency just as we (believers) ask people to respect member's agency to believe.

 

Some of those points have been made before, but Uchdorf said it all at once, very clearly.   Much appreciated.

 

And as for the "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" line.  It's good advice.  Don't be so quick to lose your faith.

 

I know I doubted by doubts for years without doubting my faith.  Eventually my search did lead me to doubting my faith, but I don't even see that path as violating the quote from Uchdorf.  

 

As for his urging to "stay a little longer" or "come back"  that's where I am at this point.  I do love the people, the culture (the good parts), and it's my heritage -- it's easy to feel "at home" with Mormons.  I don't actually believe any longer and it seems that Uchdorf is saying that even that's okay (obviously hoping I will get back to belief) saying "there's room for me."  

 

I do want to try "going back" while feeling like I'm being "honest" with myself.  I'm fine with people knowing where I stand, but I'm not going to go up in testimony meeting and say, "FYI, I'm pretty much an atheist right now, just so you know."  So I'm sort of at this middle ground where the bishop knows, but everyone else in the congregation assumes I'm full believer and talks to me assuming as much, and I just kind of nod and say, "yeah" ... and that disconnect is what makes me feel like I'm "playing a part" when I go to church.

 

 I don't know.  I guess everyone would eventually figure it out as time went on and realized I wasn't wearing garments, etc.  Curious if anyone on this board is in that same position.

 

Yes, I was in that situation.  I had a crisis of faith about 10 years ago.  It has been a long road, but I realize that there is a place for me that I am comfortable with in the LDS Church.  I have always been in love with the simplicity of the core gospel of Jesus Christ.  I know that Jesus lived, that He died for us, and that He loves us.  I can worship Jesus anywhere, but I choose to worship Him in the LDS Church.  I enjoy playing the piano for Primary on Sundays.  Worshipping the Lord through song is a beautiful spiritual dimension.

 

This doesn't mean that there are things I still don't care for in regards to Church policy, etc.  However, I choose to not "throw out the baby with the bathwater" as it were.

[Stargazer]

I think better counsel would be to always question and doubt because you stop thinking and learning and growing the second you stop questioning and think you know. If faith is misplaced, it does not merit a privileged place above doubt.

 

I think you have a good point here.  All of my doubts have in fact led to greater faith. 

[jkwilliams]

I think you have a good point here.  All of my doubts have in fact led to greater faith. 

 

I wish I could say the same, but I don't regret taking a good look at myself, my life, and my faith.

[Stargazer]

This was really nice to hear:

It really doesn't help for people to tell those of us who have left why we left. It means a lot to me that President Uchtdorf understands that one can leave in good conscience for what they believe are good reasons.

Me, I left because I decided I wanted to sin because I was offended when someone told me I never had a testimony in the first place.

 

A missionary from Toronto, Canada told me he had almost not gone on a mission because the members of his ward kept remembering all his past peccadilloes and regarded him as a lost cause.  He said that he came back from inactivity because he wasn't going to let a pack of darned Mormons keep him out of the Celestial Kingdom!

[why me]

Great talk.

 

And this is from one of those doubters who has left activity.

 

He hit on a lot of great points you don't often hear:

 

- He said the assumption of "sin, offended, and lazy" isn't always the case.  There are plenty of other reasons it could be

- There are things in church history that could cause people to question

- Leaders in the past have made mistakes and have been wrong

- Someones agency in searching for truth could take them out of the church and we (believers) need to respect that agency just as we (believers) ask people to respect member's agency to believe.

 

Some of those points have been made before, but Uchdorf said it all at once, very clearly.   Much appreciated.

I think that he stated what many members knew already based on these members own experiences with family members and friends. He just gave it a little confirmation and a push forward for more open discussion.

[why me]

I also think that he was stating that he hoped that doubters stayed and those that left would return in hope that they would grow stronger in the gospel. I can't see the church surviving if there are more doubters than committed members. The lds church is not a church set up for doubters. There is too much work at play with callings and responsibilities.

[Storm Rider]

I think better counsel would be to always question and doubt because you stop thinking and learning and growing the second you stop questioning and think you know. If faith is misplaced, it does not merit a privileged place above doubt.

 

Yes, Thomas, come stick your hand in my side, feel the wounds in my hands, and know. Blessed are those who need not be compelled to believe. No, my brother, faith is preeminent and must stand as the sole bridge for mortals to extend themselves to Jesus Christ and accept his infinite atonement. 

[Calm]

No, I just got back from driving my parents to my niece's house in Maryland. I'm just going by the statement in the OP. If he's not saying what it sounds like he's saying, maybe someone can explain the context.

You need to listen to the talk to get the full context.  Half of his message is the nonverbal intensity and sincerity of what he is saying.

[why me]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-top-mormon-leader-acknowledges-the-church-made-mistakes.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=print

 

A Top Mormon Leader Acknowledges the Church ‘Made Mistakes’ By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

One of the top leaders in the Mormon Church acknowledged in an address to the church’s global membership on Saturday that past leaders had “made mistakes” that had caused some Mormons to have doubts, an admission that amounts to a significant change in tone in the leadership’s approach to Mormons who question, dissent or defect from the church.

“We respect those who honestly search for truth,” President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the church’s top governing body, the first presidency, said in the speech.

The church has in the past excommunicated prominent scholars and even low-profile members who publicly voiced doubts about its history or theology, and many Mormons who have lost their faith have been shunned by their friends and family. But recently, with some Mormons taking to the Internet to share their doubts, leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now claims 15 million members, have been confronted with a bigger problem they could no longer ignore.

“We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question,” Mr. Uchtdorf said, speaking to 20,000 Mormons gathered for the 183rd semiannual general conference in Salt Lake City, and millions more watching telecasts and over the Internet.

On Saturday evening, about 200 women, according to The Associated Press, staged a demonstration outside to protest the church’s male-only priesthood, demanding entrance to a men’s-only priesthood meeting.

Mr. Uchtdorf, a Mormon from Germany who is considered by those who study the church to be a potentially modernizing influence, did not specify what leaders or mistakes he was referring to.

But he said: “To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”

He said it was wrong for other Mormons to assume that those with doubts “have been offended or lazy or sinful.” He said that the church “honors personal agency,” and that the church’s first prophet, Joseph Smith, “had questions and sought answers.”

Scott Gordon, president of FAIRMormon, a group that defends the church, said: “I believe this is the clearest statement made in recent times that church leaders have made mistakes in the past. Coming from a member of the first presidency, the highest level of leadership in the church, makes it especially powerful.”

 

Interesting piece in the NYT.

[canard78]

I also think that he was stating that he hoped that doubters stayed and those that left would return in hope that they would grow stronger in the gospel. I can't see the church surviving if there are more doubters than committed members. The lds church is not a church set up for doubters. There is too much work at play with callings and responsibilities.

But what he excellenty pointed out was that all the "stuff" at the beginning of the talk were facilitators to doing good. All of the things we "do" are part of a process of becoming something better. He talked of it being a community for sharing talents and compassion.

As a "doubter" as you call them, I would welcome many more of my ilk into the church. Being able to have conversations like this would be great at church, rather than biting my tongue sometimes.

Pres Uchtdorf made no condition or limitation on participation in the community. In some of the "doubter" online communities there is an outpouring of relief and delight at this talk and many people's hearts being softened. People who were edging closer to inactivity are saying they are willing to "stay a little longer." People who have already left are saying that this message will make them reconsider. Don't expect a flood, but do hope for a change in the number of "borderland" attendees.

That's why I call him a wonderful balm of gilead. Elder Caussé's talk was also a lovely gift of inclusiveness.

[Calm]

I linked to it above. Skip to 1:33:17.

 

Frankly I think this conversation is completely missing the point of the talk. 

Yes, it was a great 'soundbite' but it was in reference to just one of the supporting points, not the main theme of the talk, imo.

 

The sense of the faith community and what it means and implies...to me that was more of the theme, what members do and who members are, both the good and the bad and the ups and downs of the faith experience and especially the sense of family, love and the invitation to be a part of it.

Edited October 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

You need to listen to the talk to get the full context. Half of his message is the nonverbal intensity and sincerity of what he is saying.

Yes, this. Is it possible to get a conference talk as your ringtone.

DW (none attendee) was also touched by his comments.

[Calm]

I thought that comment was a Wow moment.  I can't recall such an admission in a church wide forum.  But I may have just missed them in the past.

I actually thought this was more powerful, especially if one adds the development, perhaps because I've read talks plenty of times saying leaders are human but while this is doctrine, I don't believe I've heard it presented in this fashion before:

 

Someone's agency in searching for truth could take them out of the church and we (believers) need to respect that agency just as we (believers) ask people to respect member's agency to believe.

 

[The Nehor]

Huh? I didnt know he was.

 

Oh yes, he gets rotten produce chucked at him by temple-attending saints regularly.

 

Either that or I was joking. One of the two.

[canard78]

Oh yes, he gets rotten produce chucked at him by temple-attending saints regularly.

Either that or I was joking. One of the two.

Nehor? Joking? Doubt it.

[why me]

But what he excellenty pointed out was that all the "stuff" at the beginning of the talk were facilitators to doing good. All of the things we "do" are part of a process of becoming something better. He talked of it being a community for sharing talents and compassion.

As a "doubter" as you call them, I would welcome many more of my ilk into the church. Being able to have conversations like this would be great at church, rather than biting my tongue sometimes.

Pres Uchtdorf made no condition or limitation on participation in the community. In some of the "doubter" online communities there is an outpouring of relief and delight at this talk and many people's hearts being softened. People who were edging closer to inactivity are saying they are willing to "stay a little longer." People who have already left are saying that this message will make them reconsider. Don't expect a flood, but do hope for a change in the number of "borderland" attendees.

That's why I call him a wonderful balm of gilead. Elder Caussé's talk was also a lovely gift of inclusiveness.

I would agree with you. I think that it made a wonderful impact on people. But the goal is to have people who doubt come back to believing in the truth claims of the church. And much depends on those with strong testimonies to help the doubters in the process.

[jkwilliams]

Yes, Thomas, come stick your hand in my side, feel the wounds in my hands, and know. Blessed are those who need not be compelled to believe. No, my brother, faith is preeminent and must stand as the sole bridge for mortals to extend themselves to Jesus Christ and accept his infinite atonement. 

 

Thomas was about demanding proof: "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." That's not what I am talking about.

[Senator]

Yes, Thomas, come stick your hand in my side, feel the wounds in my hands, and know. Blessed are those who need not be compelled to believe. No, my brother, faith is preeminent and must stand as the sole bridge for mortals to extend themselves to Jesus Christ and accept his infinite atonement. 

 

Yes, but faith must be in "substance and evidence".  Imagine where Christianity would be if Jesus had never produced himself for inspection?

Edited October 6, 2013 by Senator

[awyatt]

Pres. Uchtdorf's talk was amazing, but it wasn't the only amazing moment in conference so far. I decided to live-blog conference this year (first time ever for me) and include my thoughts about the various speakers and goings-on. Those interested can find the blog here.

 

I plan on doing it again this morning. The talks look good this morning, as well.

 

Now, for Music and the Spoken Word...

 

-Allen

[Spammer]

It's a very nice talk. It's refreshing to hear a GA say so clearly that there are other reasons people leave than sin and laziness. His appeal for exmos like me to return was very heartfelt. My issues are historical and doctrinal. No Apostasy, no Nephites, the BoA is not authentic, polygamy and the priesthood ban were doctrines of men. Since those are my beliefs, why return?

[Calm]

Pres. Uchtdorf's talk was amazing, but it wasn't the only amazing moment in conference so far. I decided to live-blog conference this year (first time ever for me) and include my thoughts about the various speakers and goings-on. Those interested can find the blog here.

 

I plan on doing it again this morning. The talks look good this morning, as well.

 

Now, for Music and the Spoken Word...

 

-Allen

Thanks for doing this, Allen.

[Scott Lloyd]

President Uchtdorf's talk is being universally acclaimed here, including among those who class themselves as doubters.

 

While that is a fine thing, we should beware lest we read into it an endorsement or even an acquiescence to the practice of sowing or nurturing seeds of doubt among the young, the recently converted, the distressed, or others whose faith is currently vulnerable or weak.

 

I don't believe that is what was intended here. Hence, the quote that I picked out as the title for this thread.