Duncan Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 in Nephi's Vision of what his father saw he noted that 1 Nephi 8:25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed. if you are given the gift of eternal life how can you fall away afterwards as it says in v.28? isn't that gift given after you get to the other side?
The Nehor Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 In the vision the fruit is the love of God. 2
Duncan Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 In the vision the fruit is the love of God. according to the primary manual it's eternal life http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-4/lesson-4?lang=eng&cid=facebook-shared
T-Shirt Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) according to the primary manual it's eternal life http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-4/lesson-4?lang=eng&cid=facebook-sharedThe Book of Mormon never says that the fruit represents Eternal Life. The Primary manual uses two unrelated scriptures to arrive at its conclusion. I think it is wrong. However, I think, in an eternal perspective, one could say the fruit represents Eternal Life. In a mortal world, one can taste of the love of God and, later, turn from it. This is, I think, the context of the story in the Book of Mormon. Edited August 28, 2013 by T-Shirt 1
The Nehor Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 according to the primary manual it's eternal life http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-4/lesson-4?lang=eng&cid=facebook-sharedThe Primary manual is wrong. If you are chowing down on the fruit then you are in a state fit to receive eternal life but you can stop eating as people in the vision did when the cretins in the great spacious started mocking. 1
Darren10 Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) according to the primary manual it's eternal life http://www.lds.org/manual/primary-4/lesson-4?lang=eng&cid=facebook-shared "Fruit" in verse 24 is footnoted to "fruit" in verse 10 of the same bok and chapter. "Fruit' in verse 10 is footnoted to Alma 32:42 (41-43). This reads (bold mine): 41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. My understanding here is that the fruit leads to eternal life. After gaining eternal life you'll hunger and thirst no more but you must strive towards it via the fruit of you labors. The fruit, of course, is also Christ's love for the partaker. It is Christ's love ("charity" / "mercy" / "grace") which is necessary for one to obtain eternal life. As I see it, this is the primary reason one is happy: to receive the grace of God. Edited August 28, 2013 by Darren10 1
CV75 Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 in Nephi's Vision of what his father saw he noted that 1 Nephi 8:25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed. if you are given the gift of eternal life how can you fall away afterwards as it says in v.28? isn't that gift given after you get to the other side?In mortality, the fruit is the love of God, which we can enjoy, and which in immortality is expressed in a fulness as eternal life. Sine mortality is a time of testing, we can fail to keep enjoying that fruit in this life and suffer the consequences in the next life. 1
Ahab Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 (edited) "Fruit" in verse 24 is footnoted to "fruit" in verse 10 of the same bok and chapter. "Fruit' in verse 10 is footnoted to Alma 32:42 (41-43). This reads (bold mine): But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. My understanding here is that the fruit leads to eternal life. After gaining eternal life you'll hunger and thirst no more but you must strive towards it via the fruit of you labors. The fruit, of course, is also Christ's love for the partaker. It is Christ's love ("charity" / "mercy" / "grace") which is necessary for one to obtain eternal life. As I see it, this is the primary reason one is happy: to receive the grace of God. The word "unto" means that it leads towards that. It doesn't mean that's what it is. Elsewhere in the Book of Mormon the love of God is called the best gift we can ever receive. An angel asked Nephi: Knowest thou the meaning of the dtree which thy father saw?22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the alove of God, which bsheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the cmost desirable above all things.23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most ajoyous to the soul. That's what I'm after. Like David, I'm a man after God's own heart. Wish me luck. I hope I don't mess up like David did. Edited August 28, 2013 by Ahab
rpn Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 A side note to those of you who think the primary manual is wrong: be sure to write the primary manual people and point out the problem. There will be another printing and your input could make sure no one has to fight over what is in the manual in the future. 1
Duncan Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 Just so I am clear here this vision is dualistic in meaning? Like, the the whole iron rod and mists of darkness and great and spacious building and all the flithy river stuff is what mortal life is like but the end result as represented by the tree and fruit could have two meanings?
Duncan Posted August 28, 2013 Author Posted August 28, 2013 A side note to those of you who think the primary manual is wrong: be sure to write the primary manual people and point out the problem. There will be another printing and your input could make sure no one has to fight over what is in the manual in the future. heavens to murgatroyd! this primary manual was last updated in 1996! I didn't see an email address or a contact us portion thing bit!
Maidservant Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 I have eternal life now (i.e. to answer the question of if that is given later). The fruit is the love of God and this can be said to be eternal life--but what does it mean in actual, every day living? to 'have' the love of God? It's the journey of the mortal lifetime to arrive at this knowledge.
Calm Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 heavens to murgatroyd! this primary manual was last updated in 1996! I didn't see an email address or a contact us portion thing bit!Online at lds.org, at the bottom of each page, there should be a "feedback for this page" link, that takes you to a page like this one I more or less randomly selected: http://www.lds.org/tools/feedback?lang=eng&id=11340¬e=lds.org:gospel-library:manuals:primary-5-doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history:lesson%2044:%20the%20salt%20lake%20temple%20is%20constructed%20and%20dedicated 1
Questing Beast Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 The tree of eternal life is next to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you take the latter, then take the former, you'll "live forever in [your] sins". Obviously these are metaphors and symbols of principles. If you take immortality by itself without wisdom, you will continue to live forever with your mistakes, that vitiate Joy, and you will be less joyful thereby. But if you learn what good and evil are, and allow "God" to guide you (through Jesus Christ or whatever works), then immortality does not stagnate in "sin" but increases in Joy through repentance....
Maestrophil Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 The tree of eternal life is next to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you take the latter, then take the former, you'll "live forever in [your] sins". Obviously these are metaphors and symbols of principles. If you take immortality by itself without wisdom, you will continue to live forever with your mistakes, that vitiate Joy, and you will be less joyful thereby. But if you learn what good and evil are, and allow "God" to guide you (through Jesus Christ or whatever works), then immortality does not stagnate in "sin" but increases in Joy through repentance....OK... so help me out here. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so they had wisdom - yet were commaded NOT to partake of the tree of Eternal Life. Can someone help me understand what happened there, and how that relates to us?
cinepro Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 "Fruit" in verse 24 is footnoted to "fruit" in verse 10 of the same bok and chapter. "Fruit' in verse 10 is footnoted to Alma 32:42 (41-43). This reads (bold mine): It's been my impression that the footnotes for words are the dead-tree equivalent to hitting CTRL+F on a webpage and searching for a word. Sure, you can find the word in different places, but that doesn't mean they mean the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I stand in awe of the time and effort spent creating the footnotes and cross-referencing all the scriptures, but it's pretty obvious that context and doctrinal equivalency weren't the primary factors in creating them. 1
cinepro Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 OK... so help me out here. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so they had wisdom - yet were commaded NOT to partake of the tree of Eternal Life. Can someone help me understand what happened there, and how that relates to us? More importantly, what would have happened if Adam and Eve had run over to the tree and eaten the fruit before God had told them not to. It wouldn't have been a transgression then.
theplains Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 The Book of Mormon never says that the fruit represents Eternal Life. The Primary manual uses two unrelated scriptures to arrive at its conclusion. I think it is wrong. If it is wrong, then the church is misleading the children. This part was interesting: "What does the mist of darkness represent? (The temptations of the devil, which can confuse us and lead us astray.) In what ways does Satan tempt us to leave the strait and narrow path? What can we do to resist his temptations? Why are we happier if we stay on the strait and narrow path?" If Adam and Eve had resisted the temptation of the devil and stayed on the strait and narrowpath, they would not have joy, misery, or children (according to lds theology). Regards,Jim
Questing Beast Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) OK... so help me out here. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so they had wisdom - yet were commaded NOT to partake of the tree of Eternal Life. Can someone help me understand what happened there, and how that relates to us?The tree of eternal life was forbidden because wisdom was not part of their condition, knowledge was. They knew, saw, their choices, but not the consequences. Only experience would teach that. Why not as immortals then? What would be wrong with living forever and gaining experience forever without death? The whole scenario of fall and redemption through the Savior/God hinges on irredeemable carnal, sensual and devilish disposition because of the forbidden fruit: it wrought not only a change in perception (knowledge of good and evil), but a constant motivation to choose evil. And each evil choice distanced the man and the woman and their children further from God. Had they become immortal with a fallen nature, they would have thus been lost forever in sin. And they/we are, according to the paradigm of fall and redemption. So in steps the Messiah and atones for all of the fallen crap, and causes death to flee, and perfection in the place of fallen depravity. All you have to do is accept it, him, and it is done.... Edited August 31, 2013 by Questing Beast
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