Mormon Women And A Challenge To Lds Modesty Norms

[Calm]

It is not the beauty splayed across advertisements as a means to sell things. there's very little beautiful about that beyond an image. Like some poorly formed landscape painted from a picture of a place found on google. It has not depth, little meaning, minuscule expression.

I find a number of the world's top beauty to look positively bland myself, besides a sameness, their faces are so regular/so balanced there is nothing of interested to see. And modeling apparently leads one to look like someone with no thought in their wee brains so as to not distracted from the product. They look like well formed blank canvases...not interesting at all to m.

[Calm]

Most of the photos showed the women as being completely passive as well, there were a three that had them playing an instrument (two of one woman playing a piano and one of a woman playing a guitar) and then there was the woman breastfeeding her twins, but the rest were just posing passively.

Not exactly a picture of empowerment in my view. I think they would have done much better if they had collected a number of pictures of them doing what they do all day in clothes and then as part of the natural process of detailing their lives as whole and complete mental, physical, emotional beings, including one or two nude pictures if they felt the need. Showing how they actually used and lived in their body and not just 'wore' it in the poses, now that would have been more on message in teaching the idea that a woman has a right to fully enjoy her body in all areas of her life.

[Garden Girl]

Gardengirl, it does not matter what has not been explicitly taught, what matters is the perception. Just look at your last post, you ridicule the hypothetical person who would dare to wear a skirt that is 1.5inches above her knee; or exsposes bare shoulders. And even if chewed gum, quoted rose, stick with a hole in it, are not found in Church lesson manuals such things were taught in a Church setting and people have, apparently, developed views that there bodies are something to be ashamed of.

Now, I do not think we should run out and make calendars of ourselves.

I had to go back and read that post... I wasn't ridiculing anyone.... I simply asked what an LDS woman would have to do to dress in a manner not in keeping with Church standards... and in so describing asked also what the motivation would be?

This post is an example of how women who chose to dress how they'd like are made to feel less worth than those who decide to follow a religious standard.

See my response above... I don't see that I was trying to make a woman feel of less worth... I asked a question about motivation. And mindset...

I wasn't thinking about non-LDS women...

GG

[BlueDreams]

Most of the photos showed the women as being completely passive as well, there were a three that had them playing an instrument (two of one woman playing a piano and one of a woman playing a guitar) and then there was the woman breastfeeding her twins, but the rest were just posing passively.

Not exactly a picture of empowerment in my view. I think they would have done much better if they had collected a number of pictures of them doing what they do all day in clothes and then as part of the natural process of detailing their lives as whole and complete mental, physical, emotional beings, including one or two nude pictures if they felt the need. Showing how they actually used and lived in their body and not just 'wore' it in the poses, now that would have been more on message in teaching the idea that a woman has a right to fully enjoy her body in all areas of her life.

If I was a photographer, I'd so steal your idea

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

This was the point of the photos and the goal of the site. I think that the site wanted to critique lds beliefs. However, the title is interesting. When the word Mormon is in the title as a description of the women the site owners are objectifying these women because they are mormon and something unique, so unique that this is the reason to look at the photos: to see mormon women naked.

I think that a number definitely did have strong critiques about LDS beliefs......but it can't be the total point. If it were, there's the problem of the fact that one woman doesn't even mention anything LDS related and is inherently positive about her body image.

As for objectifying I think that is a huge stretch. By that standard mormon.org could be accused of objectifying by putting profiles up about various members as a means to rep all mormons. From wikipedia: objectification means treating a person as a thing, without regard to their dignity. The people are not treated as things in the photo series. They have names (for the most part; one or two felt more comfortable with a letter), they've personally written stories about themselves to explain how they've come to view their bodies (generally within an LDS context), they volunteered with little coercion, and none of the photographs are inherently exploitive or without regard to their dignity.

With luv,

BD

[cinepro]

I suspect those pictures will ultimately find their place on a vintage pornography website, with someone thinking they've uncovered a trove of pics from the 1920s and 1950s.

[Erin15]

My take on all this is very simple. Men will never stop treating women like objects so long as they act like objects.

When a woman dresses modestly, she is sending a clear message that she respects herself as a person, and that she insists that others treat her with respect as a person.

A woman dressing modestly is part of the solution.

A woman dressing immodestly is part of the problem.

Reading this thread, I am amazed at how many of my sisters have allowed themselves to be so decieved that they now believe good to be evil and evil to be good. The standards of modesty the Church teaches are some of the most beautiful and ennobling standards we have.

I never truly lived in my body until leaving the church and garments behind. I spent almost all my time living in my head. I was taught that my body was just an imperfect glove for my "real" self; my spirit. I felt more objectified as a garment wearing believer than I have since I left.

Now I know that body and spirit are one and the same. I am my body. I am my mind. This is the real me.

I would argue that this line of thinking misses the point of the Gospel entirely, The purpose of this life is not to wallow in who we are and what we want, but rather to improve ourselves and become something more. To climb as high as we can through faith, love, and obedience. To set aside whant we want and instead do what He wants.

Anytime a woman is told what to wear by a man (or not to wear) she is not free.

What about when a woman is told what to wear by other women?

What about when a woman is told what to wear by homosexual men?

Flip open any fashion magazine, look at the names of the writers and editors. Written by women for women, and arguably some of the worst offfenders when it comes to making women feel self-conscious about their bodies. Is that freedom?

Go to any big name fashion show, who are the designers? Women and Homosexual men. How much damage has been done to our daughters and ourselves over the years by the obsession with aneroxic models given to us by those designers? Is that freedom?

Your comment seems to be laying these ills at the feet of men, but that doesn't make any sense.

So, ultimately, I do understand why a Mormon woman would want to make a statement with her body. Posing nude is a way of reclaiming what is their own, a way of saying, "Go ahead, judge me, but know you have no power over me".

It's sad that it's a message that is needed.

But, it is not needed. Membership in The Lord's church is voluntary, and anyone is free to leave at any time. Saying that "you have no power over me" is almost meaningless, because the Church never had any real power over you to begin with, it only teaches correct principals and each person chooses for themselves whether they will do it or not. If you want a real example of power, look at your next paycheck. The money for your taxes has already been removed before it even gets to you. Now, try and get that money back. THAT is an example of actually having power over you.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Erin15

[Calm]

If I was a photographer, I'd so steal your idea

With luv,

BD

Anyone who wants to...go for it. Some of their stories are tragic and I think it would be great if what they did helped them long term, I am however very concern with unintended consequences for a variety of reasons. Edited July 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

it is not the photos but the reason for posting them that is the problem: to get a dig at the lds church.

But I see no connection between the photos and what they claim is the reason for posting them. Telling women that they are more than just a body as the lds church does is not oppressing women but actually liberating them from being body obsessed. If women are told that they are more than just flesh and bone how does that oppress women when they view women's magazines and feel pressure to be that model on the cover? Or that teenager on the cover? We know that there is a connection between eating disorders and body expectations. And we also know that eating disorders are increasing among the boys too because of body pressure.

http://articles.lati...orders-20130614

http://www.anorexiab...sorders-in-boys

I think that by focusing on the body and not the inner spirit and what is actually 'beautiful', may lead to such happenings as described in the articles above. Now I do think that many lds young people are in the world when it comes to body obsession...but the teaching of inner beauty is certainly stressed by lds leaders through modesty.

No its the photos. Not sure you are right about the inner beauty business, its more the don't be a slut kind of thing.

[EllenMaksoud]

Hello,

I've come across a photography project called 'Mormon Women Bare'. It is to be presented at Sunstone this year, and involves women who identify as Latter-day Saints posing sans clothing, in a challenge to LDS modesty norms.

I won't post the link here, as it is against board rules and is NSFW and NSF minors. What I'm hoping for is a discussion regarding how appropriate this type of activism is and if it has gone too far.

Thanks,

Grimace

I watched this discussion swell to 7 pages, and it bothered me. So, rather than talk ABOUT them, I decided to go TO them. You may find my comment there.

[The Grimace]

I watched this discussion swell to 7 pages, and it bothered me. So, rather than talk ABOUT them, I decided to go TO them. You may find my comment there.

I don't see any comment by you at the site. Nor do I see a place for comments.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't see any comment by you at the site. Nor do I see a place for comments.

Oh, it was the application to be photographed! I perverted its use, and just talked to them. I would rather talk TO people, not about them.

[The Grimace]

Oh, it was the application to be photographed! I perverted its use, and just talked to them. I would rather talk TO people, not about them.

I think it's great that you want to be photographed! Let us know about your experience.

[Tacenda]

Oh, it was the application to be photographed! I perverted its use, and just talked to them. I would rather talk TO people, not about them.

The gal Brook is on a Mormonstories podcast with her ex husband who worked for the CES. It's a sad story. They were a sweet couple, with a darling family. And now look, just can't stand that their marriage is over.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think it's great that you want to be photographed! Let us know about your experience.

NO Buster, it is not permissible! I would be tried for war crimes in the Hague.

[EllenMaksoud]

The gal Brook is on a Mormonstories podcast with her ex husband who worked for the CES. It's a sad story. They were a sweet couple, with a darling family. And now look, just can't stand that their marriage is over.

Well, we get truculent about the same thing, she for being forced to wear too much, me for being forced to wear too little. I am sorry that her marriage is over. Mormonism does push one a bit, but I think that some of that just comes from gossipy old ladies.

In the case I my own garb, I decided that people who depend solely on commercial news sites to determine their world view are not smart enough to regulate my morality.

Edited July 29, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[EllenMaksoud]

Hello,

I've come across a photography project called 'Mormon Women Bare'. It is to be presented at Sunstone this year, and involves women who identify as Latter-day Saints posing sans clothing, in a challenge to LDS modesty norms.

I won't post the link here, as it is against board rules and is NSFW and NSF minors. What I'm hoping for is a discussion regarding how appropriate this type of activism is and if it has gone too far.

Thanks,

Grimace

It is late. I went to that site again and this time, felt profound sadness. How could someone who has her best interest in mind even bring this to this site? This woman, in my opinion is very angry, and needs a counselor more than public notoriety, or other angry women "egging" her on. She has two children. What are they to do? As an outsider, I sometimes feel the presure to be a good Mormon woman. There is a web site that sells women's clothing called "Jen Clothing", and with the cap sleeve dresses, the high neck line, and the perfect knee length hem it is the perfect Mormon Women's Uniform, or at least it seemed that way at first.

Lately, I realize that one does not have to dress that way, but it took me a while to realise it.

I feel considerable sympathy for the woman and her plight.

Edited July 30, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Kenngo1969]

It is not the state of dress, but the state of undress, depending on context, that is the question. It is perfectly fine to be naked when taking a shower, not so much when walking down the street.

Now you tell me?! Where were you before the officer stopped me, cuffed me, threw me in the back seat of his squad car, and took me to jail for gross lewdness?!! The least you can do is wire some money to bail me out! Please PM me forthwith with the necessary information!

[Stone holm]

Now you tell me?! Where were you before the officer stopped me, cuffed me, threw me in the back seat of his squad car, and took me to jail for gross lewdness?!! The least you can do is wire some money to bail me out! Please PM me forthwith with the necessary information!

Yeah some things just shouldn't ever see the light of day -- an offense against humanity.

[Flyonthewall]

What the LDS church teaches and what these women have "learned" are two different things.

example:

I spoke to my kids about what I expect for school grades - I expect them to try for an 'A', because if they don't quite make an 'A', there is still a 'B' or 'C' to fall back on. If they set out only trying for a 'C', there is only 'D' and 'F' to fall back on and they are not acceptable.

Well my 16yr old felt overwhelming stress because of this because she thought I demanded all 'A's, which is not what I said at all.

Similarly, these women took upon themselves something the LDS church does not teach about our bodies.

[bluebell]

Hey Grimace, I think you might have missed this question with all the posting that happened on this thread in a short amount of time a few days ago. I'm going to ask it again though as I think it's very relevant to the OP.

You said-

The Grimace, on 28 July 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Why would men from my ward be looking at pictures of my nude wife or nude daughter

And I asked-

Would it be inappropriate?

[bluebell]

What the LDS church teaches and what these women have "learned" are two different things.

example:

I spoke to my kids about what I expect for school grades - I expect them to try for an 'A', because if they don't quite make an 'A', there is still a 'B' or 'C' to fall back on. If they set out only trying for a 'C', there is only 'D' and 'F' to fall back on and they are not acceptable.

Well my 16yr old felt overwhelming stress because of this because she thought I demanded all 'A's, which is not what I said at all.

Similarly, these women took upon themselves something the LDS church does not teach about our bodies.

I agree.

The one that really sticks out to me was the mother of twins who eventually became very upset with the church because they tried to make her feel ashamed for her fertility.

She is speaking about a pregnancy that occurred out of wedlock.

Her view was that it was the church's fault that it was not a happy time in her life because no one celebrated the wonder of the miracle of creation which had occurred inside of her. It's also her view that this 'shame of her fertility' made the few years following the birth of her first child guilt-filled and believing that God was punishing her for keeping her daughter by causing her to miscarry other pregnancies.

Of course, the church doesn't actually believe or teach that fertility (getting pregnant) is the sin that one should be ashamed of or feel guilt about (it's the consequence of a sinful act when it occurs out of wedlock but being fertile is not the problem) and neither does it teach anywhere that miscarriages are punishment for past sexual sins (she does not claim that anyone in the church ever told her this but says such were the prevalent thoughts she had during those hard times).

I recognize that for her perception is reality but her interpretation of those events in her life do not actually reflect real church doctrines. If the church is going to be castigated, it seems like it should be for things it actually teaches.

[Stone holm]

Hey Grimace, I think you might have missed this question with all the posting that happened on this thread in a short amount of time a few days ago. I'm going to ask it again though as I think it's very relevant to the OP.

You said-

And I asked-

Would it be inappropriate?

define "inappropriate".

[bluebell]

define "inappropriate".

I suppose I meant would it be unacceptable or wrong for such men to look at naked pictures that women in the church put up on the internet in a public forum.

[EllenMaksoud]

I suppose I meant would it be unacceptable or wrong for such men to look at naked pictures that women in the church put up on the internet in a public forum.

It would speak louder to me if their faces did not show. The only one that should know what their bodies look like are their Moms or their husbands. For them to be identifiable just smacks of rabid feminist tactics, and personally, I have heard enough from those people.

I doubt that I will fully understand what some Mormon women complain about. Sure, there is the wife, child bearer, husband supporter thing, and at my age, I will never know any of that. I come from a background where women really do get beaten and abused.