Mormon Women And A Challenge To Lds Modesty Norms

[Calm]

One can recognize the standards of a society based on appearance without agreeing with it that such is the ultimate measure of a woman's (or man's) beauty.

[MorningStar]

Isn't this an example of the very thing that many here say doesn't exist - body shaming (Hot vs Not Hot)?

In the church, we dress modestly regardless of how attractive we are. The church doesn't say, "Dress modestly. Oh, unless you're not very attractive to anyone anyway." No, it's about respect for our bodies. The answer to society's focus on looks isn't to take all of your clothes off for the whole world to see.

[Calm]

In the church, we dress modestly regardless of how attractive we are. The church doesn't say, "Dress modestly. Oh, unless you're not very attractive to anyone anyway." No, it's about respect for our bodies. The answer to society's focus on looks isn't to take all of your clothes off for the whole world to see.

I particularly like this quote from the blog I linked to earlier:

Whatever the standard of modesty for a society is, by choosing to follow it women are rebelling against a culture of sexual objectification that would seek to co-opt their own self-expression and turn them into objects. In short: a women-centric view of modesty.

[The Grimace]

In the church, we dress modestly regardless of how attractive we are. The church doesn't say, "Dress modestly. Oh, unless you're not very attractive to anyone anyway." No, it's about respect for our bodies. The answer to society's focus on looks isn't to take all of your clothes off for the whole world to see.

Nobody said that the women at Mormon Women Bare are responding to society's focus on the body. They are responding to Mormonism's focus on the female modesty.

From the Sunstone Symposium abstract that describes the project:

"Mormon women bear a heavy burden: while being warned against becoming “walking pornography,” they also face immense pressure to be attractive and fit. They must both attract and protect against male desire. From toddlerhood, girls are conditioned to cover their bodies. This hyper-focus on modesty leaves many girls and women feeling disconnected and ambivalent about their bodies. The Mormon Women Bare project seeks to empower women to reclaim their bodies. Through tasteful nude photography and personal narratives, women are shown as beautiful and flawed, real and exposed. Women of different shapes, sizes, and ages demonstrate that bodies need not bring shame but can be owned, celebrated, and honored."

[MorningStar]

Nobody said that the women at Mormon Women Bare are responding to society's focus on the body. They are responding to Mormonism's focus on the female modesty.

From the Sunstone Symposium abstract that describes the project:

"Mormon women bear a heavy burden: while being warned against becoming “walking pornography,” they also face immense pressure to be attractive and fit. They must both attract and protect against male desire. From toddlerhood, girls are conditioned to cover their bodies. This hyper-focus on modesty leaves many girls and women feeling disconnected and ambivalent about their bodies. The Mormon Women Bare project seeks to empower women to reclaim their bodies. Through tasteful nude photography and personal narratives, women are shown as beautiful and flawed, real and exposed. Women of different shapes, sizes, and ages demonstrate that bodies need not bring shame but can be owned, celebrated, and honored."

Where does the "immense pressure to be attractive and fit" come from?

[MorningStar]

And how does showing the entire Internet your naked body reclaim your body for yourself? Such silliness.

Edited July 29, 2013 by MorningStar

[Calm]

Nobody said that the women at Mormon Women Bare are responding to society's focus on the body. They are responding to Mormonism's focus on the female modesty.

Their choice of reaction and response has been molded, imo, by society.

[The Grimace]

Their choice of reaction and response has been molded, imo, by society.

Maybe. How would a proper LDS woman respond?

[Calm]

And what is wrong with being pressured to be "fit"? Being healthy and fit means one is happier, able to do more things, etc.

What is wrong with encouraging people to be more than couch potatoes?

[Calm]

Maybe. How would a proper LDS woman respond?

If you can show me a "proper LDS woman" perhaps I could respond. I don't believe in such a stereotype though. Edited July 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[The Grimace]

If you can show me a "proper LDS woman" perhaps I could respond. I don't believe in such a stereotype though.

OK, let me rephrase. What is an appropriate response for an LDS woman, if she had concerns as outlined in the aforementioned abstract?

[strappinglad]

The pressure to be attractive and fit is great , but not from the Church . Pick up any woman's magazine and note the topics . These magazines are not made by Mormon women, and they are not made by exclusively men either. A look at the TV programs aimed at women and see what the agendas are. Weight loss,weight loss, weight loss, how to get a man , etc. All the focus on actresses and their looks and bumps .

[MorningStar]

OK, let me rephrase. What is an appropriate response for an LDS woman, if she had concerns as outlined in the aforementioned abstract?

She should rebel by not wearing Spanx.

[Calm]

OK, let me rephrase. What is an appropriate response for an LDS woman, if she had concerns as outlined in the aforementioned abstract?

The Mormon Women Bare project seeks to empower women to reclaim their bodies.

I think there are likely an infinite number of possibilities on how one could positively respond in reclaiming one's own body if one feels that somehow one has given in the past control to others. What leads one woman to being comfortable in her body may not work for another.

However, I do thinking changing one's paradigm about what and why the Church is teaching modesty is probably necessary, getting past what individuals might be saying to what is actually taught by the Church and the Spirit.

Turning one's body over to public display on the Internet, thus placing the image in the hands of total strangers that will completely separate the image of one's body from any other part of one's being simply isn't one of them though. For me, this is not an issue of shame or guilt or nakedness even, it is about the idea that one is asserting ownership of something by offering it freely to anyone who wants it. It isn't a logical rationale and thus will likely have unintended consequences down the line.

[MorningStar]

Their choice of reaction and response has been molded, imo, by society.

Agreed. The church focuses on health, which doesn't mean obsessing about every ounce of fat on our bodies.

[Calm]

In the gallery of photos, one is presented with about a half dozen photos plus a short one page or so blurb dealing with why they are posting their pictures.

Instead of presenting themselves as complete individuals, they have taken a very small slice of themselves and attached it to a picture of themselves naked to make some sort of statement.

This is not them as whole people, this is not them as a complete person, this fractures what they are into a small segment and then uses their bodies to greater magnify the imbalance, which inflates the importance of the body beyond the spirit, the mind and all else that makes up their being...which is what they were protesting against in the first place. They have done to themselves what they were complaining others were doing, making it all about their physical appearance. People will not get to know these women through these pictures. They will merely become aware of something that is much less than the whole.

Focusing on one aspect of the self to the negation of the rest will never be satisfying in the long run, imo.

Now if they had wanted to share these pictures with those who knew them well and not focus the discussion on the physical appearance...that might have led to a different result.

Edited July 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

Why would men from my ward be looking at pictures of my nude wife or nude daughter?

Would it be inappropriate?

[bluebell]

There's something I don't get about this website.

Why is it called mormon women bare and yet half of the women aren't even mormon? That seems disingenuous.

For all the talk about being free to be who they are, why are some of these women taking part in a website that is claiming to represent a group of people that is not them?

[BlueDreams]

I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words here, but I'll try. If Playboy girls were doing the same exact poses, would it be sexual? Is it not sexual because these women aren't considered especially attractive or have flaws on their bodies? Are Playboy girls called "brave" or are these women the brave ones because they're putting their (in comparison) grotesque bodies on display How is that not degrading?

No....they range. There is one or two in the group that most I would assume would find very attractive. It's still not sexually explicit. It is not solely about their level of attraction but the intent of the material.....which is not first and foremost to arouse. And for the record, I do not find their bodies grotesque. If someone of playboy material was nursing a child or two, posing pregnant, sitting in non-suggestive poses, with no photo touch ups, minimal makeup, etc....no it wouldn't be much different....just with physically more stereotypical attractive women. In fact it would fit much more of the artistic genres of nudes found in the past which were largely of women deemed beautiful for their time (and often still are today).

With luv,

BD

[why me]

No....they range. There is one or two in the group that most I would assume would find very attractive. It's still not sexually explicit. It is not solely about their level of attraction but the intent of the material.....which is not first and foremost to arouse. And for the record, I do not find their bodies grotesque. If someone of playboy material was nursing a child or two, posing pregnant, sitting in non-suggestive poses, with no photo touch ups, minimal makeup, etc....no it wouldn't be much different....just with physically more stereotypical attractive women. In fact it would fit much more of the artistic genres of nudes found in the past which were largely of women deemed beautiful for their time (and often still are today).

With luv,

BD

it is not the photos but the reason for posting them that is the problem: to get a dig at the lds church.

But I see no connection between the photos and what they claim is the reason for posting them. Telling women that they are more than just a body as the lds church does is not oppressing women but actually liberating them from being body obsessed. If women are told that they are more than just flesh and bone how does that oppress women when they view women's magazines and feel pressure to be that model on the cover? Or that teenager on the cover? We know that there is a connection between eating disorders and body expectations. And we also know that eating disorders are increasing among the boys too because of body pressure.

http://articles.lati...orders-20130614

http://www.anorexiab...sorders-in-boys

I think that by focusing on the body and not the inner spirit and what is actually 'beautiful', may lead to such happenings as described in the articles above. Now I do think that many lds young people are in the world when it comes to body obsession...but the teaching of inner beauty is certainly stressed by lds leaders through modesty.

Edited July 29, 2013 by why me

[BlueDreams]

Mixed thoughts:

So this might ramble quite a bit. I have two or three diverging thoughts on the topics that the women bring up in the blog, what has been mentioned here, and my own concerns.

I’ve been thinking a bit about objectification, nudity, and sexualizing images. It’s been mentioned a number of times and in a number of ways about how these images are pornographic (or could at least be used as porn) for literally no other fact that they are naked and open to the public. This idea has been problematic to me. And it’s in this realm that I can understand the the motifs of the women. So much of the body and the way we view it is overtly sexualized. I think it’s linked heavily to other problems, like losing the normative nature of, say, breastfeeding. I feel on this note there’s not much that will desexualize the human form without being able to see others outside of a sensual context. Breasts will always be awkward to see if all that they are considered for by the larger society is for sexual pleasure. On this note, I can appreciate the photographic series.

On another, more personal note, I like the idea of having more understanding of what a normal body is….to remove this idea of “perfect” physically to allow for all forms of humanity to be appreciated for what they are, physically (again, not explicitly sexually). Though it may not be of great help to someone I think it’s nice to know my body is pretty normal, to recognize what may happen to my own body, and to appreciate what I have, etc. When all that is ever seen are women who are perfectly primped and suggestively clad in ways that most women, even beautiful ones, could never hope to achieve, it’s nice to know that most women can be beautiful and happy with what is…just as it is.

I think mormon women often can be squeemish about their bodies as well as others…..they’re not comfortable with nudity in others and quite often their own form. Which is a shame…..most have lovely forms.

At the other end, I do feel the female nude is over used and can be very indicative of a more male-dominated culture where women have historically, as well as continue, to be objectified. Two examples come to mind. I was looking at a book filled with old photos that they’d categorized. Two topics entailed masculinity and femininity. For the masculine there were a couple nudes of extremely muscular men, but most had men clothed doing something (work, service, etc). Meanwhile the feminine section was almost entirely made of nude women. Where women are minimized to their worth that their bodies are the greater indicators of inherent social worth….there’s a problem. And its still rampant in society (whether LDS or not). Photographing nudes….of women especially…..to me does not immediately equivocate freedom from social restraints placed upon women. It can easily mean tying down to new ones. Likewise, that there maintains a difference in apparel for men and women, where women are expected to wear more provocative clothing falls in this similar problem. Women, disproportionately exposed, in comparison to men, indicates more of an expectation and end worth that is tied excessively to appearance, particularly sexual appeal.

My last broken, personal thoughts. I’m not naturally a “modest” person in the traditional sense. I have at least 2 dresses that hit somewhere along my thigh that I love. I’ve participated in dances that have shoulders showing along with thighs and enjoyed performing the dances. I have little problem with other people’s nudity. And I certain don’t mind my own. I’ve painted plenty that wouldn’t be garment apt and I’ve also painted one nude. And some cultural things have seemed silly to me (like how many of my YW peers growing up had this odd desire to wear shorts while swimming….it seemed impractical) and others frequently make me a little sad and disturbed (like how many are not comfortable with their bodies and have issues with their esteem….many of these I do not attribute to just LDS populations….though they may have LDS specific reasons to their discomfort) and some are just dumb (various aversions to art nudes or bikinis on byu models for figure drawing). My general leaning is more naturally to having less of this type of stuff. Of course I do think nudity can be modest by its use, presentation, and intent….so I’m probably an odd duck anyways.

That’s just been spilling around my head as I’ve read the comments hear and looked through the photo series. I don’t know how I feel about it. I think the pictures are well done and tasteful. I find their purpose for them as hit or miss in execution. As a series that focuses, artistically, on how these women have come to view their bodies and sexuality I think it does pretty well. On critiquing LDS beliefs about the body or broadening our understanding of the body, religious I feel is strongly misses. I don’t find the concept exceptionally novel but I also don’t find it inherently bad as well.

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

Where women are minimized to their worth that their bodies are the greater indicators of inherent social worth….there’s a problem. And its still rampant in society (whether LDS or not). Photographing nudes….of women especially…..to me does not immediately equivocate freedom from social restraints placed upon women. It can easily mean tying down to new ones.

Exactly.

I also have very little problem with nudity in and of itself. And I don't think that the entire world should be dressing by Mormon temple standard.

And I can think of a lot of clothing that covers tons more skin and yet sexualizes the body more than a tank top and shorts put on to do yard work does or even a nice sleeveless dress with a slit for walking. Modesty is more about how the body is presented than how much skin is exposed in my view. When people start focusing in measuring how short a skirt is or how much shoulder is revealed, they have missed the point and turned the body into a mannequin, not a temple.

[BlueDreams]

it is not the photos but the reason for posting them that is the problem: to get a dig at the lds church.

I've already mentioned that I hold issue to a number of their descriptions of mormon beliefs....or at least their understanding of them. Though a number I can see their points and find the ideas that are described in our community that need to be removed.

But I see no connection between the photos and what they claim is the reason for posting them. Telling women that they are more than just a body as the lds church does is not oppressing women but actually liberating them from being body obsessed. If women are told that they are more than just flesh and bone how does that oppress women when they view women's magazines and feel pressure to be that model on the cover? Or that teenager on the cover? We know that there is a connection between eating disorders and body expectations. And we also know that eating disorders are increasing among the boys too because of body pressure.

I think that by focusing on the body and not the inner spirit and what is actually 'beautiful', may lead to such happenings as described in the articles above. Now I do think that many lds young people are in the world when it comes to body obsession...but the teaching of inner beauty is certainly stressed by lds leaders through modesty.

I mentioned a number of these concerns while you were writing....but on what is "actually 'beautiful'" I do not feel like this is what my faith has taught me. I have a healthy esteem and it's by recognize a divine attribute to my physical form. Quite frankly, I revel in my physicality. I find the physical spiritual, that it is interlinked and immutably connected to my purpose on earth and my spiritual capacities. It is the means of expression of my spiritual self. It is me; part of me. As much me as my spirit. And perfection will be a completed union of the two in one purpose: the glorification of God, exaltation, and continued creation.

Many young LDS people are definitely in the world when it comes to body obsession, but frankly I find people who are just as uncomfortable with the beauty and nature of their bodies who are more detached to their physical form. Actually beauty is all of it: both physical and spiritual; inner and outer. It is not the beauty splayed across advertisements as a means to sell things. there's very little beautiful about that beyond an image. Like some poorly formed landscape painted from a picture of a place found on google. It has not depth, little meaning, minuscule expression. Some of the most beautiful people i know, who warm my heart, have aged faces and graying hair, eyes that glisten, and smiles that are pure. They are beautiful through and through. Their bodies have become expression of all that they are.

On anorexia/eating disorders. There is correlation to body image, expectations, and disorders. But the relationship is still.....sketchy. Different populations and ethnic groups will have different propensities to certain eating disorders and different ethnic groups that both have, say, anorexia can often have different root reasons for their disorders. I can't give references right off the bat. I'm remembering from research I had to do for a paper on anorexia a semester or two back. Basically, that is definitely oversimplifying the matter.

With luv,

BD

[why me]

On critiquing LDS beliefs about the body or broadening our understanding of the body, religious I feel is strongly misses. I don’t find the concept exceptionally novel but I also don’t find it inherently bad as well.

With luv,

BD

This was the point of the photos and the goal of the site. I think that the site wanted to critique lds beliefs. However, the title is interesting. When the word Mormon is in the title as a description of the women the site owners are objectifying these women because they are mormon and something unique, so unique that this is the reason to look at the photos: to see mormon women naked.

[Storm Rider]

Gardengirl, it does not matter what has not been explicitly taught, what matters is the perception. Just look at your last post, you ridicule the hypothetical person who would dare to wear a skirt that is 1.5inches above her knee; or exsposes bare shoulders. And even if chewed gum, quoted rose, stick with a hole in it, are not found in Church lesson manuals such things were taught in a Church setting and people have, apparently, developed views that there bodies are something to be ashamed of.

Now, I do not think we should run out and make calendars of ourselves.

No, No, No, No, No. I, nor is anyone else, responsible for your perception or anyone else's perception. Every individual is responsible for the their own perception of life as well as everything else. I am not a victim of your perception, your words, your actions, or anything else you might do. I am the only one responsible for my own thoughts and views.