Mormon Women And A Challenge To Lds Modesty Norms

[jwhitlock]

One of my favorite Bloom County comic snippets shows an old woman sitting in front of a TV watching an Oil of Olay commercial, which is saying "Use Oil of Olay, because we all know that in this country a woman isn't worth a plugged nickel if she doesn't look like she's 19 years old."

There can be no doubt that our society objectifies women and tells them that how they look and how sexy they are is the most important thing in the world. It's a recognized problem. To me it the dysfunction produced was made most clear when I saw a 13 year old girl in the 8th month of pregnancy still trying to fit into the tightest, skimpiest size of clothing that she could get. She was an object lesson that should be disturbing to anyone concerned with the deterioration of morals and chastity around us.

The church and its teachings on chastity and modesty stand in direct opposition to what the world is trying to do.

In this particular issue, where the influence of society is evident in telling girls and women to sexually objectify their bodies and show them off for all the world to see, these women in "baring all" are demonstrating on which side of the fence they really stand. Because in reality, there can be no fence sitting on this subject.

When the world applauds these women as "courageous" and when others rationalize their behavior as "right", that is a clear indication that there is something disturbingly wrong with what they're doing.

[why me]

I would agree. The teachings of the LDS church really do objectify women. Object lessons of chewed gum and crushed roses just underscore this.

I was referring to the website's philosophy and its intent and what it wanted to stress. I think that we all need to be honest. Women are objectified, period. And this has much to do with the marketization of the female body. The media are prime movers in this when one glances at women's magazines, reality television ie America's Next top Model etc. The female body is not only marketed but exploited so much so, that many women exhibit a false conscious over their body: the less they wear the more liberated they will be. What does the church teach? Be modest. This does not mean to be completely covered but to wear clothing that represents more than the physical but also the inner beauty that all women possess. And this is the same for the men too. No need to go around in a muscle shirt and tight shorts.

[why me]

You never had a lesson about how our bodies are like gloves and our hands represent the spirit? You have never heard the teaching that our mortal bodies are imperfect and will be perfected in the resurrection? Huh. Interesting.

You were never taught that you needed to cover yourself carefully to be sure boys didn't get Those Feelings when looking at you?

You weren't taught that your purpose in life was to be a mother and wife?

Well, maybe I went to a different church.

My daughters were not taught this at all. And the young women in my ward and neighboring wards seem to wear rather body revealing clot'hing. Much different when I was a young buck and what lds young women were wearing in the 70's. I tend to call it the H&M effect.

[why me]

When the world applauds these women as "courageous" and when others rationalize their behavior as "right", that is a clear indication that there is something disturbingly wrong with what they're doing.

It is not the photos that are the problem but the words under the photos and what some of these women are stating.

Edited July 28, 2013 by why me

[Stone holm]

You never had a lesson about how our bodies are like gloves and our hands represent the spirit? You have never heard the teaching that our mortal bodies are imperfect and will be perfected in the resurrection? Huh. Interesting.

You were never taught that you needed to cover yourself carefully to be sure boys didn't get Those Feelings when looking at you?

You weren't taught that your purpose in life was to be a mother and wife?

Well, maybe I went to a different church.

What does nudity have to do with good and evil?

If their point was to get people to quit objectifying women, in other words think of women as primarily sex objects built to reproduce and nurture children, and to think of women as individuals, you do not approach that goal by creating of yourself what will even more strongly identify you as a sex object.

[divinenature]

If their point was to get people to quit objectifying women, in other words think of women as primarily sex objects built to reproduce and nurture children, and to think of women as individuals, you do not approach that goal by creating of yourself what will even more strongly identify you as a sex object.

Which is why the photographs on the blog are not sexual or pornographic in nature.

[Stone holm]

My daughter who is now a paediatrician was raised basically as a boy, and she was totally repulsed by the extent to which BYU coeds were obsessed with clothing, make up, etc. She felt the whole situation was perverted when it came to women.

[Stone holm]

Which is why the photographs on the blog are not sexual or pornographic in nature.

Really?

[cinepro]

I do find it a little suspicious that the "Mormon Women Bare" site is sponsored by the South Jordan Aesthetic Surgery Center.

Edited July 28, 2013 by cinepro

[bluebell]

Why make the point that they were not ashamed? Is shame of nudity of good or does the shame come from evil?

Perhaps because shame, like guilt, stems from sin and Adam and Eve were not sinning when they were naked in innocence.

[why me]

My daughter who is now a paediatrician was raised basically as a boy, and she was totally repulsed by the extent to which BYU coeds were obsessed with clothing, make up, etc. She felt the whole situation was perverted when it came to women.

My point exactly. I don't think that the website accurately reflects what lds young women are now wearing. Many young mormon women have been influenced by the world and its advertising portrayals of women. In fact, they are becoming more enslaved by their 'liberating' dress. And many young mormon guys are no different. Same influence, same problem.

Edited July 28, 2013 by why me

[divinenature]

My daughters were not taught this at all. And the young women in my ward and neighboring wards seem to wear rather body revealing clot'hing. Much different when I was a young buck and what lds young women were wearing in the 70's. I tend to call it the H&M effect.

Then your daughters must not have attended Young Women's or primary.

I was referring to the website's philosophy and its intent and what it wanted to stress. I think that we all need to be honest. Women are objectified, period. And this has much to do with the marketization of the female body. The media are prime movers in this when one glances at women's magazines, reality television ie America's Next top Model etc. The female body is not only marketed but exploited so much so, that many women exhibit a false conscious over their body: the less they wear the more liberated they will be. What does the church teach? Be modest. This does not mean to be completely covered but to wear clothing that represents more than the physical but also the inner beauty that all women possess. And this is the same for the men too. No need to go around in a muscle shirt and tight shorts.

Anytime a woman is told what to wear by a man (or not to wear) she is not free.

It is completely possible for inner beauty to shine through while in every possible variation of dress/undress. I see vast quantities of inner beauty in the photographs on this blog. Beauty, bravery, strength, courage, femininity, composure, delight, motherhood and confidence are all evident in these women.

[divinenature]

Really?

Truly. Could you point out a specific photograph you believe to be for the express purpose of sexually stimulating the viewer?

[bluebell]

My daughter who is now a paediatrician was raised basically as a boy, and she was totally repulsed by the extent to which BYU coeds were obsessed with clothing, make up, etc. She felt the whole situation was perverted when it came to women.

Utah women members have, in my experience and speaking in generalities, a much different perspective on the outward appearance than women members in other areas. I don't mean to speak ill of them or say all are alike in that regard, but just voicing an observation.

I have good friends in utah who do things to themselves (like getting their eyelashes extended for example) at great cost because that's what everyone else is doing. I've lived in three different states and I've yet to meet another sister in any one of them who has done similar things at the same age or who even thinks it would be a good idea.

It's not mormon culture. It's utah culture.

[strappinglad]

Having seen some of the 'people of Walmart' youtube videos, I now have a much better idea of what constitutes immodest dress.

[divinenature]

Perhaps because shame, like guilt, stems from sin and Adam and Eve were not sinning when they were naked in innocence.

Or, perhaps, there is nothing wrong with our naked bodies. Perhaps being taught that our naked bodies are bad and shameful is what produces the feelings of shame and guilt. Just like a child brought up in a culture where it is "sin" for a woman to show her face in public will feel extreme guilt if she were to defy that teaching.

What we are taught dictates how we feel about certain actions and choices.

[divinenature]

Utah women members have, in my experience and speaking in generalities, a much different perspective on the outward appearance than women members in other areas. I don't mean to speak ill of them or say all are alike in that regard, but just voicing an observation.

I have good friends in utah who do things to themselves (like getting their eyelashes extended for example) at great cost because that's what everyone else is doing. I've lived in three different states and I've yet to meet another sister in any one of them who has done similar things at the same age or who even thinks it would be a good idea.

It's not mormon culture. It's utah culture.

What is wrong with a woman doing whatever she wants to her body? I have not heard anything from the pulpit about fake eyelashes, hair coloring, liposuction, breast augmentation or brazillian waxing.

Why is it that some feel the need to shame a woman for altering her own body? Especially considering she may have altered it because she had body issues.

I mean, it looks to me like Uchtdorf fake bakes. So what, if he does? It's his body.

[why me]

Or, perhaps, there is nothing wrong with our naked bodies. Perhaps being taught that our naked bodies are bad and shameful is what produces the feelings of shame and guilt.

Is the lds church teaching that naked bodies are wrong, bad and shameful? I must have missed this lesson. I think that mormons get naked everyday...in the shower, when they change clothes, when they make love etc. However, I think that most churches would tell a young lady not to pose for playboy or hustler. Or to do a porn movie. And these days, most young ladies are no longer going topless at the beach in Europe because of iphones, etc. And this has to do with privacy.

[Stone holm]

Utah women members have, in my experience and speaking in generalities, a much different perspective on the outward appearance than women members in other areas. I don't mean to speak ill of them or say all are alike in that regard, but just voicing an observation.

I have good friends in utah who do things to themselves (like getting their eyelashes extended for example) at great cost because that's what everyone else is doing. I've lived in three different states and I've yet to meet another sister in any one of them who has done similar things at the same age or who even thinks it would be a good idea.

It's not mormon culture. It's utah culture.

I think she would agree. We moved from Indiana in 1994. Indiana was similar to Utah. I remember stopping by her bedroom and asking what she was doing, she said she was cutting the designer labels off her jeans to sew them on her new jeans. When we moved to Vermont she told me she didn't have to worry about the labels anymore. She used to call

Home from BYU to complain that the coeds woul spend 45 minutes in front of the mirror with makeup before going to class and come back from Church because they had just been called as assistant activities director in their branch and trying to decide how to get a date with some guy. She had gone out ther with high expectations and it was a total disaster.

[The Grimace]

Many have asserted that the "Mormon Women Bare" website is unnecessary, even pornographic. Perhaps a few examples of why I think the website is needed:

1. My daughter, when she became a Beehive (recently), went to a YW activity that involved a trip to the mall to see examples of modest and immodest clothing. The night was spent comparing outfits and talking about what clothing choice says about a girl. My daughter, who already had one foot out the church door, said that some of the descriptors used were "skank", "slutty", and "trashy". Odd, how an exercise in choosing clothing quickly became an exercise in judging girls who dress outside the Church standards, based solely on how much of their bodies they chose to reveal.

2. My daughter wore a tank top to her LDS BFF's house last summer, after leaving the church. Unfortunately, my daughter's "friend" took it upon herself to tell my daughter that her choice of clothing made her feel uncomfortable. My daughter was judged based solely on the fact that her top only had straps, not sleeves. My daughter now feels self-conscious whenever she visits her LDS BFF. Never mind the fact that they are both young teens, and her LDS BFF is 50lbs overweight (a fact that my daughter would never bring up).

3. Stake Girls Camp, and my wife attended as a camp counsellor. Many a debate was had between YW leaders concerning every single girl who wore a two piece bathing suit. But, the more tragic part is that the girls would gossip amongst themselves concerning who's suit showed the most skin. My wife said none of the girls wore anything immodest; they were simple two-piece suits, not thongs and bikinis. Yet, conditioning had taught these girls to judge appearances.

So, ultimately, I do understand why a Mormon woman would want to make a statement with her body. Posing nude is a way of reclaiming what is their own, a way of saying, "Go ahead, judge me, but know you have no power over me".

It's sad that it's a message that is needed.

[mercyngrace]

What I think is interesting is that people don't consider it porn unless there are perfect bodies and certain poses, but I guarantee there are some perverts out there "enjoying" this and now that those images are out, they can never be taken back. It's not porn because they're regular women? That seems to reinforce the idea that our bodies are our identity.

For me, what's most awesome about my body is what my brain can make it do.

I don't think "perfect bodies" are what defines porn. As Cal said, it's intent. There are people objectifying others for sexual gratification without nudity. Every time a man grazes his eyes across a woman's breast with a heart full of lust, he has essentially turned her into a pornographic image no matter how much clothing she is wearing. The same goes for women when they look at man's body with the intent of arousing themselves. Remember the "Diet Coke break" commercials?

This is why, in my opinion, the Lord makes the point that He does in Matthew 5:28. Interestingly, He does not speak to what the woman is wearing but what is in the man's heart.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting nudity is the way to go or that individuals have no responsibility for how they dress. I just think there's more to the definition of pornography that nudity.

[bluebell]

Or, perhaps, there is nothing wrong with our naked bodies. Perhaps being taught that our naked bodies are bad and shameful is what produces the feelings of shame and guilt. Just like a child brought up in a culture where it is "sin" for a woman to show her face in public will feel extreme guilt if she were to defy that teaching.

What we are taught dictates how we feel about certain actions and choices.

I've never been taught my naked body is shameful and I've never taught that in any lesson in YW or Primary or to my own children so I really can't speak about that.

We just had a wonderful lesson on NOT being ashamed of our bodies and our sexuality today in RS because they are gifts from God.

Something can be a blessing and still need to be kept within certain bounds which the Lord has set.

[Bikeemikey]

Is the lds church teaching that naked bodies are wrong, bad and shameful? I must have missed this lesson. I think that mormons get naked everyday...in the shower, when they change clothes, when they make love etc. However, I think that most churches would tell a young lady not to pose for playboy or hustler. Or to do a porn movie. And these days, most young ladies are no longer going topless at the beach in Europe because of iphones, etc. And this has to do with privacy.

We are only a couple of generations removed from members being counseled that they should not remove the temple garment even during sex... At least in the region of the church I grew up.

Lds have an more conservative cultural approach to sex and nudity. I have no thought presently on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. we are consistently sliding in the more liberal direction.

That said I am opting to offer no thoughts on the web site - much of the response thus far has made me very disappointed.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[bluebell]

What is wrong with a woman doing whatever she wants to her body? I have not heard anything from the pulpit about fake eyelashes, hair coloring, liposuction, breast augmentation or brazillian waxing.

Why is it that some feel the need to shame a woman for altering her own body? Especially considering she may have altered it because she had body issues.

I mean, it looks to me like Uchtdorf fake bakes. So what, if he does? It's his body.

Who's shaming them?

The manifesto of the Mormen Women Bare website spoke about the stress of feeling like they have to look a certain way-be stylish and fit-to be accepted.

I was simply pointing out that it is not the Mormon church which applies that stress.

If women want to put in time and money to get their bodies painted and altered to heighten their self esteem then more power to them. I'm grateful to live in a culture that does not make me feel like it is necessary to do those things to be relevant or to fit in but if I did who knows that I wouldn't be doing the same things.

[Garden Girl]

I've never been taught my naked body is shameful and I've never taught that in any lesson in YW or Primary or to my own children so I really can't speak about that.

We just had a wonderful lesson on NOT being ashamed of our bodies and our sexuality today in RS because they are gifts from God.

Something can be a blessing and still need to be kept within certain bounds which the Lord has set.

Bluebell, I was never taught, either, that the naked body was bad or something to be ashamed of... so I feel no guilt or shame about my body... but nor do I feel it necessary to flaunt it by ignoring the modesty standards of the Church... what I consider to be the bounds that the Lord has set... my level of self-respect and self esteem are high... as well as my stylish and quality of apparel, modest though it is...

GG

Edited July 28, 2013 by Garden Girl