Stone holm Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 I suppose I meant would it be unacceptable or wrong for such men to look at naked pictures that women in the church put up on the internet in a public forum.Yes, it would be innappropriate. Although I would bet this discussion has caused men to look at it that wouldn't have otherwise.
bluebell Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Yes, it would be innappropriate. Although I would bet this discussion has caused men to look at it that wouldn't have otherwise.I believe so as well and it was VERY annoying because I really wanted to discuss this website with my husband but of course he did not look at it.I was very happy when my mother showed up and finally had someone I could discuss it with who had also seen the photos.My interest though is in what Grimace, who seems to believe that it is NOT inappropriate for the women to have put naked pictures of their body on the internet for the public to look at, believes about people actually using the photos in the way they are given (as in, both men and women actually looking at them).
why me Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 The photos were rather benign. The problem was with the message: mormon women are oppressed. And this is not true. Also, the site objectified the word mormon because this was about seeing mormon women nude. The same could be said for a site that declares: Amish Women Bare All. It would objectify Amish women.
Stone holm Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 I believe so as well and it was VERY annoying because I really wanted to discuss this website with my husband but of course he did not look at it.I was very happy when my mother showed up and finally had someone I could discuss it with who had also seen the photos.My interest though is in what Grimace, who seems to believe that it is NOT inappropriate for the women to have put naked pictures of their body on the internet for the public to look at, believes about people actually using the photos in the way they are given (as in, both men and women actually looking at them).The situation kind of reminds me of the predicament that the Supreme Court found itself in during the 60s and 70s where they had to install a movie theater in the Supreme Court building so that the Justices could go down and watch X rated movies in order to determine whether they were pornographic or not. I wonder if any of these women are still in the Church whether at their disciplinary hearings the photographs will be introduced as evidence. That would be an extremely uncomfortable Bishop's Court....lol, especially if the women showed up.
jim_mason Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 I believe so as well and it was VERY annoying because I really wanted to discuss this website with my husband but of course he did not look at it.I was very happy when my mother showed up and finally had someone I could discuss it with who had also seen the photos.My interest though is in what Grimace, who seems to believe that it is NOT inappropriate for the women to have put naked pictures of their body on the internet for the public to look at, believes about people actually using the photos in the way they are given (as in, both men and women actually looking at them).Does someone need to view the pictures to have a discussion about it? Have you viewed the pictures have you shown the pictures to your husband? Would you be upset if he did view the pictures? Basically it appears you find it acceptable for women to look at naked women but men should not look at naked women, or am I misunderstanding?
Stone holm Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Does someone need to view the pictures to have a discussion about it? Have you viewed the pictures have you shown the pictures to your husband? Would you be upset if he did view the pictures? Basically it appears you find it acceptable for women to look at naked women but men should not look at naked women, or am I misunderstanding?No it is perfectly acceptable for women to look at naked women on the internet....uh, well....that is unless they have SSA and then....well its complicated.... Edited July 31, 2013 by Stone holm
Calm Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Basically it appears you find it acceptable for women to look at naked women but men should not look at naked women, or am I misunderstanding?I saw enough female bodies in junior high, high school and university, no big deal...as long as they are not sexually posed, it probably has less impact than being at the beach does where the clothing calls attention to how little it is at times.As far as I am concerned, it's up to a man to decide whether it's appropriate for him to look at naked women's bodies...I can think of several instances where it is necessary....it is when it is unnecessary that it should give them pause. Same thing for women with men's bodies or if one is attracted to the same sex, then women with women and men with men as well as the opposite...just respecting people's privacy even when they don't in my view. There are some things you can't undo and seeing someone in the nude is generally one of those.
jim_mason Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Calmoriah, I saw enough naked males in the MTC to last a lifetime. I do not accept that it is acceptable for a woman to look at pornographic pictures of women but it is not acceptable for a male to do the same. If our bodies are meant to be covered then our nude bodies must not be seen by anyone but our spouse or in the case of medical necessity.
The Grimace Posted July 31, 2013 Author Posted July 31, 2013 My interest though is in what Grimace, who seems to believe that it is NOT inappropriate for the women to have put naked pictures of their body on the internet for the public to look at, believes about people actually using the photos in the way they are given (as in, both men and women actually looking at them).I need some clarification regarding your question. What uses would you like me to comment on?
bluebell Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 I need some clarification regarding your question. What uses would you like me to comment on?The 'use' of them actually being seen by both men and women.If it's appropriate for them to put them out into public, then is it also appropriate for everyone (regardless of who they are) to look at them?
The Grimace Posted July 31, 2013 Author Posted July 31, 2013 The 'use' of them actually being seen by both men and women.If it's appropriate for them to put them out into public, then is it also appropriate for everyone (regardless of who they are) to look at them?Seems like a no-brainer, since men and women use the internet, then men and women can look at the pictures.
bluebell Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Does someone need to view the pictures to have a discussion about it?Not to discuss the site, but to discuss the actual pictures, I would think that the more information a person had, the more relevant and valid their comments would be.Have you viewed the pictures have you shown the pictures to your husband?Uh, pretty sure I already answered these two questions.Yes and no. He wouldn't look at them even if attempted to show them to him. Would you be upset if he did view the pictures?I wouldn't be upset but I wouldn't think it was appropriate and i'd tell him that.Basically it appears you find it acceptable for women to look at naked women but men should not look at naked women, or am I misunderstanding?Yep, that's exactly what I think. Unless the pictures are pornographic, then I don't think anyone should be looking at them. If the pictures are educational (such as for medical purposes) then I believe both sexes who are attempting to learn should look at them.
bluebell Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 Seems like a no-brainer, since men and women use the internet, then men and women can look at the pictures.Great that we have that cleared up. Now can you answer my question.Would it be inappropriate for men and young men in your ward to view naked pictures of your wife or legally aged daughter on this website if they decided they wanted to put them up there?You asked me why such men would be looking at those pictures and i'm wondering, if it's truly not inappropriate, why shouldn't/wouldn't they?
The Grimace Posted July 31, 2013 Author Posted July 31, 2013 Great that we have that cleared up. Now can you answer my question.Would it be inappropriate for men and young men in your ward to view naked pictures of your wife or legally aged daughter on this website if they decided they wanted to put them up there?You asked me why such men would be looking at those pictures and i'm wondering, if it's truly not inappropriate, why shouldn't/wouldn't they?Ah, I see what you are driving at...If my wife or daughter made the decision to post nude photos of themselves in a public arena, then it is appropriate to assume that those pictures are viewable by anyone. The reason I asked why men and boys in my ward would be viewing those pictures is because Mormons, especially Mormon males, have been told not to view nude photos. For Mormon males, it is inappropriate to view such photos, as taught by their priesthood leaders and I would suspect that those men and boys ought to be extra vigilant in avoiding nude photos of any woman, let alone my wife and daughter.
jim_mason Posted July 31, 2013 Posted July 31, 2013 I wouldn't be upset but I wouldn't think it was appropriate and i'd tell him that.And if he called you a hypocrite would you be upset? Was it appropriate for you to look at the pictures? Do you realize the double standard you are trying to get people to accept? If the pictures are educational (such as for medical purposes) then I believe both sexes who are attempting to learn should look at them.But you just posted that it is inappropriate for men to look at those photos.I agreed with most of what you posted in this thread, but this is just absurd. If it is inappropriate for male to look at nude wife then it is inappropriate for you to look at my nude wife.I am interested in how you justify a such a double-standard. What makes it appropriate for you to view those women nude but inappropriate for you husband to view those women nude.
bluebell Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 Ah, I see what you are driving at...If my wife or daughter made the decision to post nude photos of themselves in a public arena, then it is appropriate to assume that those pictures are viewable by anyone. The reason I asked why men and boys in my ward would be viewing those pictures is because Mormons, especially Mormon males, have been told not to view nude photos. For Mormon males, it is inappropriate to view such photos, as taught by their priesthood leaders and I would suspect that those men and boys ought to be extra vigilant in avoiding nude photos of any woman, let alone my wife and daughter.I get what you are saying, but it seems like a double standard.I understand that Mormon men are taught not to look at naked pictures of women, but Mormon women are also taught not to post naked pictures of themselves on the internet.So, if it's appropriate for a Mormon woman to go against the teachings of the church in this regard, why would it be inappropriate for a Mormon man to do the same?
bluebell Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 And if he called you a hypocrite would you be upset?He would never speak to me like that, so I would be shocked if that kind of thing came out of his mouth for sure.However, he wouldn't call me a hypocrite because I'm not being hypocritical. The standards that I expect him to abide by are the same that I expect of myself. He's free to look at non pornographic pictures of naked men if he wants to, especially if it serves a specific purpose like gaining knowledge that is pertinent to a discussion he believes is important (just like me looking at non porn pictures of naked women). Was it appropriate for you to look at the pictures?Yep, it was.Do you realize the double standard you are trying to get people to accept?I have set no double standard. But you just posted that it is inappropriate for men to look at those photos.Yes and I agree with myself about that. I agreed with most of what you posted in this thread, but this is just absurd. If it is inappropriate for male to look at nude wife then it is inappropriate for you to look at my nude wife.I think you opinion on this is absurd, so I guess we are even in that.What makes it appropriate for you to view those women nude but inappropriate for you husband to view those women nude.Me being a woman makes it appropriate. Him being a man makes it inappropriate. If we were talking about naked pictures of men, the reverse would apply.No double standard.
The Grimace Posted August 1, 2013 Author Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) I get what you are saying, but it seems like a double standard.I understand that Mormon men are taught not to look at naked pictures of women, but Mormon women are also taught not to post naked pictures of themselves on the internet.So, if it's appropriate for a Mormon woman to go against the teachings of the church in this regard, why would it be inappropriate for a Mormon man to do the same?I dunno. I never made that argument. You asked me about men and boys in my ward, not women. Edited August 1, 2013 by The Grimace
Calm Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) Calmoriah, I saw enough naked males in the MTC to last a lifetime. I do not accept that it is acceptable for a woman to look at pornographic pictures of women but it is not acceptable for a male to do the same. If our bodies are meant to be covered then our nude bodies must not be seen by anyone but our spouse or in the case of medical necessity.The pictures are not pornographic in my view. The idea I gather is that they are meant to be biographic, but I see them as failing in that to some extent due to the overall passive nature of them, the story told by them is very limited and not connected imo all that much for most with their blurbs save as some sort of "here I am"....they are however much like the portraits one often sees, simply the entire body instead of just the face.If someone has that POV...that such is something no one should see, I am not going to argue they are wrong. It is quite possible I am too casual in my own opinion about nude pictures of women. Perhaps I saw too many National Geographic photo of naked women when I was young, but it comes across as the same thing to me and I don't feel awkward about seeing them and I thought 'here I am criticizing, I should give them a chance and look at what they are doing if I choose to do that', however I might have been wrong to do so, I certainly don't need to experience everything before I choose to criticize it after all...I don't know if I would feel the same way about males, I think I would be much more cautious about them....As far as men seeing them....it is not the nudity for me that is at issue, though as I said above perhaps it should be. It is the placing it on the internet with the idea that this is "reclaiming" their bodies for themselves, I find that rationale wrong and I suspect they will be having to endure negative unintended consequences based on my belief. The nudity itself is something a nonissue for me...surprisingly enough now that I think of it...and I was thinking it was everyone's choice how to react to it themselves....and for me this seemed little different than seeing women at the local gym....I guess I see the idea that our bodies are meant to be covered at all times as something more cultural and not actually what we covenant, that one can be chaste and nude at the same time and chaste and seeing nudes...Perhaps I should err on the side of caution in the future, I will think about it.... Edited August 1, 2013 by calmoriah
bluebell Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 I dunno. I never made that argument. You asked me about men and boys in my ward, not women.I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you had said that it was appropriate for theses women (or any mormon woman such as your wife if she chose) to fight perceived objectification by being on this website naked.
Stone holm Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 I get what you are saying, but it seems like a double standard.I understand that Mormon men are taught not to look at naked pictures of women, but Mormon women are also taught not to post naked pictures of themselves on the internet.So, if it's appropriate for a Mormon woman to go against the teachings of the church in this regard, why would it be inappropriate for a Mormon man to do the same?So why is it okay for Mormon women to look at the pictures?
Calm Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) I believe she answered that...it is not a chastity issue in her view and currently mine for men to see men naked and women to see women naked as long as they do not attempt to turn it into something sexual.If you believe that is wrong, perhaps you could provide some documentation from lds.org or something else about why that is so. Edited August 1, 2013 by calmoriah
The Grimace Posted August 1, 2013 Author Posted August 1, 2013 I'm sorry I misunderstood you.I thought you had said that it was appropriate for theses women (or any mormon woman such as your wife if she chose) to fight perceived objectification by being on this website naked.You asked if I felt it was appropriate for my wife/daughter to pose nude. I said it was if they felt that was a necessary step in overcoming a problem they were dealing with.You then asked if it was appropriate for LDS men in my ward to look at those nude pics. I responded LDS men are taught that is a sin.Does that same counsel apply to women? Probably. I've never heard any church leader counsel women not to look at porn. Most of those messages are given in priesthood and are aimed at males.
bluebell Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 So why is it okay for Mormon women to look at the pictures?I've already answered why I personally believe it is generally ok. It's basically the same reason that I believe its ok for women to use the same restroom or locker room as other women and not ok for a man to use the women's restroom or locker room. 1
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