Thinking Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 There has been a lot of talk about infallibility recently so I thought I would ask, "Are the LDS scriptures infallible?"
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 No. Now try asking if the writers were inspired by God to write what they wrote. They were inspired, and yet what they wrote is still not perfect.
Johnnie Cake Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Not only are they NOT infallible...the scriptures are filled with myths, fables and other falsehoods...and a lot of common sense wisdom as well
HairBear Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 The follow-up question would be, do the scriptures claim to be infallible?
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Not only are they NOT infallible...the scriptures are filled with myths, fables and other falsehoods...and a lot of common sense wisdom as wellAnd humor. Don't forget to mention the humor. And if you don't know when to laugh it's not my fault.
thesometimesaint Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 There has been a lot of talk about infallibility recently so I thought I would ask, "Are the LDS scriptures infallible?"No.
KorbenDallas Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 It is very difficult to incoporate all the scriptures say into a cohesive whole. Primarily, for me, I find that I have to discount major portions as man-made in order to reconcile my understanding of a God of infinite love.Of all places, I found a summary of my thoughts regarding scripture in the CofC D&C while I was perusing their website. It made me think of Elder Christophersen's talk on Doctrine that was given about a year ago.God’s nature, as revealed in Jesus Christ and affirmed bythe Holy Spirit, provides the ultimate standard by whichany portion of scripture should be interpreted and applied.—Doctrine and Covenants 163:7bIt is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture isused to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes ofhuman beings. Much physical and emotional violence hasbeen done to some of God’s beloved children through themisuse of scripture. The church is called to confess andrepent of such attitudes and practices.—Doctrine and Covenants 163:7c The rest of the article I read this in was also thought provoking - see p. 18 here (no, I'm not a troller from the CofC, I'm actually a TBM): http://www.heraldhouse.org/files/sampleherald.pdf
CV75 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 There has been a lot of talk about infallibility recently so I thought I would ask, "Are the LDS scriptures infallible?"Only in the right hands.
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 (no, I'm not a troller from the CofC, I'm actually a TBM): http://www.heraldhou...ampleherald.pdf Okay, but do you have your multi-pass and have you found the 5th element yet?
halconero Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Not only are they NOT infallible...the scriptures are filled with myths, fables and other falsehoods...and a lot of common sense wisdom as wellCan something be a myth and a fable and not be a falsehood? There are many instances where possibly/definitely fictitious stories are used to illustrate Gospel principles. The Parables of Christ, the Allegory of the Olive Tree in Jacob, or even parts of Doctrine and Covenants 88, where Joseph Smith compares entering a Kingdom of Glory to laborers working in a field.Brigham Young once expressed the opinion that the creation story in Genesis was a fable and myth, but that didn't stop him from portraying it in the temple as a tool to teach the Plan of Salvation.So to sum up my thoughts. Yes, scripture is infallible. Does it need to be based on actual events for it to teach man the will of God? Nope."Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in." - Hub, Secondhand Lions 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) No, the scriptures aren't infallible, and they never claimed to be. Edited June 25, 2013 by Kenngo1969 1
Stroopwafel Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) First thought coming to mind upon reading the question: the scriptures are not infallible.Now, thinking a bit more about this... What do we mean exactly by infallible? or rather, do we understand what this entails?I'd ask, for those saying that the scriptures are not infallible (that includes myself!): CFR! If the scriptures are indeed fallible, then one would think there would be some instances, i.e., actual verses, where we can say "this particular scripture here is definitely in error".Haven't yet looked up for examples, but from the onset, I'd say it will be hard to find one where everyone will agree it is completely in error. Well, maybe not so hard if it comes from the Bible, as we know it has factual errors and some other quirks and stuff. But from the standard works, well, I'd be curious what passage from the BofM/D&C/PofGP could be considered to actually be "in error". Edited June 25, 2013 by Stroopwafel
Kenngo1969 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 I'm reminded of something Archie Bunker once said (hat tip to Confidential Informant, an erstwhile poster here who put it in his sig line): "I ain't got no respect for no religion where the head guy claims he can't make no mistakes ... Like he's ... What do you call it? ... Inflammable!" 1
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 First thought coming to mind upon reading the question: the scriptures are not infallible.Now, thinking a bit more about this... What do we mean exactly by infallible?And more importantly, for those saying that the scriptures are not infallible (that includes myself!): CFR!So if the scriptures are indeed fallible, then one would think there would be some instances, i.e., actual verses, where we can say "this scriptures here is definitely in error".Haven't yet looked up for examples, but from the onset, I'd say it will be hard to find one where everyone will agree it is completely in error. Well, maybe not so hard if it comes from the Bible, as we know it has factual errors and some other quirks and stuff. But from the standard work, well, I'd be curious what passage from the BofM/D&C/PofGP could be considered in error.One way the scriptures are fallible relates to how they allow people to come to some false ideas, rather than being so clear that everybody who reads them always understands the truth that God and the writer had in their mind. Sometimes to some people it's like: What the heck is this supposed to mean? Thus, the scriptures don't always convey what is true to the person who reads the scriptures so that the reader can correctly understand what is meant.
Stroopwafel Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 One way the scriptures are fallible relates to how they allow people to come to some false ideas, rather than being so clear that everybody who reads them always understands the truth that God and the writer had in their mind. Sometimes to some people it's like: What the heck is this supposed to mean? Thus, the scriptures don't always convey what is true to the person who reads the scriptures so that the reader can correctly understand what is meant.To me this says more about human fallibilty than scripture's. 1
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 To me this says more about human fallibilty than scripture's.Scriptures are a tool and the tool, itself, doesn't always work with everyone. Thus the tool isn't a perfect tool for everyone. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 To me this says more about human fallibilty than scripture's.And scriptures are received, written down, transcribed, interpreted, applied, and so on by ... whom? Oh, that's right! By humans! 1
Freedom Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Some doctrinal foundation needs to be established first, otherwise the discussion will stumble over semantics. Define infallible and provide a scripture reference to back up the definition. Otherwise we might as well ask the question are all scriptures written by right handed scribes. 3
Stroopwafel Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Scriptures are a tool and the tool, itself, doesn't always work with everyone. Thus the tool isn't a perfect tool for everyone.One thing I'd like to note is that comparing scriptures to a tool shifts the focus from the content of scriptures to their purpose. So when we talk about scriptures being fallible, do we mean to say that their content may sometimes be in error, or do we mean that they may fail their purpose?For my part, I had in mind the first instance (the content). However, using your comparison, and supposing that the purpose of scriptures is to bring people to Christ, then what you're saying (from what I understand), is that scriptures may sometimes fail at bringing people to Christ. For instance, someone wishes to come closer to Christ and reads the BofM, but after reading it through (using the tool), he was not brought to Christ. So the tool didn't work with him/her.Actually, that may not be as bad as it may come across, saying that "the BofM sometimes fails at bringing people to Christ". You do have people that study the BofM and yet remain in their ways, whatever they may be.So, granted, the scriptures may fail at their purpose. But what of their actual content? When we say the scriptures are not infallible, I believe it is saying something about their content. When an EV holds that the Bible is infallible, he means it to the letter. So, what of us when we hold that the Bible and the BofM are fallible?
Ahab Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Some doctrinal foundation needs to be established first, otherwise the discussion will stumble over semantics. Define infallible and provide a scripture reference to back up the definition. Otherwise we might as well ask the question are all scriptures written by right handed scribes.I don't know why you didn't go ahead and provide a definition of scripture, yourself, but I'll give you one to chew on.Infallibility refers to not having any weakness or problem, and fallibility refers to having some sort of weakness or problem.Now can you see any weakness or problem with any words that were written by men as they were inspired by God to write them?If knowing God or becoming like God or knowing what God thinks about something was as easy as reading the scriptures, heck, nobody who read them would have any problem understanding God or becoming as perfect as he is, but that's not what we see in this world. Lots of people have conflicting ideas about what the scriptures are saying, and some don't even know God inspired the people who wrote them.
Storm Rider Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 I don't know why you didn't go ahead and provide a definition of scripture, yourself, but I'll give you one to chew on.Infallibility refers to not having any weakness or problem, and fallibility refers to having some sort of weakness or problem.Now can you see any weakness or problem with any words that were written by men as they were inspired by God to write them?If knowing God or becoming like God or knowing what God thinks about something was as easy as reading the scriptures, heck, nobody who read them would have any problem understanding God or becoming as perfect as he is, but that's not what we see in this world. Lots of people have conflicting ideas about what the scriptures are saying, and some don't even know God inspired the people who wrote them.That is a very different definition than the standard definition of biblical infallibility that has been used. It is a new standard. The purpose of scripture is not to remove free agency; their purpose is to guide, inspire, lead those who seek to Christ and to exaltation. It is the reason the savior taught in parables; if they have ears they will hear.
cinepro Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 I'm reminded of something Archie Bunker once said (hat tip to Confidential Informant, an erstwhile poster here who put it in his sig line): "I ain't got no respect for no religion where the head guy claims he can't make no mistakes ... Like he's ... What do you call it? ... Inflammable!" Q: What did the Lord say to Abinadi when he got to heaven?A: "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
Senator Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Q: What did the Lord say to Abinadi when he got to heaven?A: "Well done, my good and faithful servant."Ohhhhhh.........that was bad!!!
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