Is Mormon Dialogue & Discussion A Safe Place For Future Missionaries?

[Johnnie Cake]

More to come on this subject but I had another lengthy FB conversation with my friend Peter the young African 18 year old contemplating serving a mission. During our conversation I felt bad I hadn't gotten his permission prior to sharing our conversation here in a now prematurely closed thread.

So today I told him about those threads and to my relief he was extremely gracious and glad that I had posted his story. I also invited him to visit this site and read both threads which he did to great amusement.

One of his funny comments to me was..."what they don't think we have satellites in Africa? That's weird". I assured him that most of those that post here are not so dense as that poster and that most of it came from skepticism due to their belief that he doesnt actually exist. To which he also chuckled.

But one thing he did discover by coming to md&d was access to subjects I had planed not to expose him to. Namely the existence of futuremissionary.com

But now as I look through the current subjects trending here I wonder if this site like future missionary.com is safe for anyone preparing for a mission.

Had the church prepared these young men and women as many here believe they do...even subjects discussed here would be met with a shrug and a yawn...but the reality is, at least to me, quite different. These subjects are not taught or discussed and come as quite a shock to those who have not been exposed

At least that's how I see it...

Edited June 24, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[The Nehor]

One of his funny comments to me was...what they don't think we have satellites in Africa? That's weird. I assured me that most of those that post here are not so dense and that most of it came from skepticism that he actually existed. To which he also chuckled.

Still smarting about that beatdown huh? LOL.

[Calm]

One of his funny comments to me was...what they don't think we have satellites in Africa?

No, it's more that we think nonAmericans are smart enough to want to avoid watching channels like Lifetime.

(I apologize to those who enjoy Lifetime, but since I try to avoid chick flicks and emotionally manipulative movies and shows I find it hard to understand those who are fond of it.)

Edited June 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

As to the safety of this site, there have been a number of posters who have gone on missions and continue strong in the faith, but I assume just like the rest of church members some would find this board uncomfortable and even disturbing.

I don't remember this board (as in moderators) ever claiming to be a haven for those asking questions or having a faith crisis even if some posters have stated it's helped them. I am wondering why this is even necessary to discuss. I would think this is something that would be obvious to anyone who has hung around longer than a few threads.

Edited June 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[DonBradley]

Hi Johnnie Cake,

To your question--unlike FutureMissionary.com, MD&D doesn't bill itself as a missionary prep site. It also doesn't have creator-provided negative content about the Church. Rather, it has user-provided content that is both positive and negative.

So, it seems odd to me to compare them. It's apples and oranges.

In previous posts you've said that you left the Church and that life became "amazing" after that. So, I'm uncertain why you seem concerned that the Church is not, from your view, adequately preparing missionaries by exposing them to difficult issues.

If you are concerned about that, and for your 18 year old African friend's degree of preparation, you would do well to refer him to informed fellow saints, who could discuss these issues with him within a perspective of faith. Having studied church history intensively since I was 17, and having left the Church and returned, I, for instance, would be happy to talk to him or anyone else in his position.

Don

[Questing Beast]

Isn't MDDB as close to "inoculation" as exists on the Net? I think the balance of TBM to skeptic to non believer and non Mormon participation here is pretty close to ideal. That means it is going to expose topics of controversy to previously unaware participants, while offering the standard Mormon and apologist take on all issues, while also exploring the critical and skeptical aspects quite thoroughly. Any missionary going forth after engaging here will be better prepared in the field. Imho, of course....

[Johnnie Cake]

Hi Johnnie Cake,

To your question--unlike FutureMissionary.com, MD&D doesn't bill itself as a missionary prep site. It also doesn't have creator-provided negative content about the Church. Rather, it has user-provided content that is both positive and negative.

So, it seems odd to me to compare them. It's apples and oranges.

In previous posts you've said that you left the Church and that life became "amazing" after that. So, I'm uncertain why you seem concerned that the Church is not, from your view, adequately preparing missionaries by exposing them to difficult issues.

If you are concerned about that, and for your 18 year old African friend's degree of preparation, you would do well to refer him to informed fellow saints, who could discuss these issues with him within a perspective of faith. Having studied church history intensively since I was 17, and having left the Church and returned, I, for instance, would be happy to talk to him or anyone else in his position.

Don

Don,

Peter is now aware of md&d, he may chose to post here or he may not, I really don't know. That's up to him.

I'm quite aware of your journey and while I don't share your conclusions will ask Peter if he would be ok with me sharing his email address with you.

If you would be ok with that.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[RadioFreeDeath]

I came here previous to serving my mission and it was a wonderful help. It wasn't missionary prep really (No one asked those anti-mormon questions to me on my mission), but it did help me to realize there were smart people asking difficult questions about the church and that there were smart people who had answers to those challenges. In that sense it helped me strengthen my resolve that being in the church was the right place.

[BlueDreams]

I was on this board for 6 or so years before serving a mission. Most of the issues mentioned simply didn't come up, but it didn't hurt either and the idea of seeking out answers for myself was a well established pattern for my life by then. I would say it's not a bad place to be....but I would also state that it shouldn't be expected to really prepare on for a mission. It's not its purpose and it simply doesn't satisfy it. The greatest preparation is nothing really new: study the scriptures, serve those around you, and gain a better relationship with the Lord.

With luv,

BD

[BCSpace]

But now as I look through the current subjects trending here I wonder if this site like future missionary.com is safe for anyone preparing for a mission.

If they have a strong upbringing in the Church and parents knowledgeable on spme of the issues yes. From there they should proceed directly to bashing on the side which is the best way to learn the scriptures vis a vis LDS doctrine imho. If for example, he or she only came into activity a year ago because the parents were recently brought back into activity and recently married civilly so as not to be living in sin, as is a recent case in my Stake, probably not.

[Stargazer]

I just concluded a marvelous Sunday, practically bathed in the Spirit all day. Inspiring and informative Sunday School and Priesthood lessons, and a very uplifting home teaching visit (me being the home teacher). I really feel sad for Johnnie Cake and others who have lost all this. My own spirit has been buoyed up and I can say that, without unequivocation, the Church is true, Christ is really our Savior, and our Father is definitely in heaven.

And I come to this place and actually find more of the same! Admittedly my mission prep days are long in the past (I'm 61, so that gives you an idea), but I don't fear anything that is posted here. Of course, I'm not a callow youth any longer. Perhaps this place could prove to be a downer for some. But even struggling members like Tacenda has found this to be uplifting at times.

I hope your friend does end up posting here. I even believe he exists!

[BCSpace]

So what did you think of the World Wide Training today?

[Storm Rider]

I typically don't deal well with a non-Mormon actively participating in teaching prospective members, missionaries, etc. about the Church or, better said, sharing the beauties of the gospel. I still get a big yawn about the criticism of the Church not preparing members well enough. OK, so LDS have a reputation about knowing the scriptures; loving God, and striving to follow his teachings; we provide seminary for four years to better know the scriptures and we offer a missionary prep course; further, we strive to teach members to pray, to come to a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ. However, this does not seem to be adequate preparation for our sincere, only-well-meaning, sincere critics. Then there are those with new found friends a world away and they are concerned about what this poor soul is exposed to about the restored Church of Jesus Christ. I can understand that it is impossible to say, "Friend, have you talked about your concerns to an actual member? or the more mundane, "You may need to talk to your Bishop" or even, "Maybe you should pray about this". No, that is not what is done, but it is to show astonishment that all the things he has ever heard are "real" and there is no other answer, "Isn't that shocking?", but gosh, you are my good, new-found, friend. At this point I typically need to clean off my shoes from that projectile vomiting episode I go through with these type of things. It is just a visceral reaction to both hypocrisy and deceit. Here is the deal, the LDS Church and its members have nothing to fear from an in-depth investigation of scriptures or history. Faith and Reason are eternal companions and they should never be separated by a disciple of Christ. The key is to never let Reason overpower Faith or vice-versa. What we do have to fear are those wolves in sheep clothing that do everything but lead people to Christ. That is the reason we send people into the world, to preach Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. I am sure God appreciates your benevolent actions with "Peter, the poor disillusioned African", but really it is farcical to bring this bit of story up here. What do you expect us to do? I think this little bit of fantasy has worn out any welcome I can provide. I need to return to real life and real people with real problems.

[Gohan]

Meh, I started posting here three years before my mission, and I turned out all right...I think... O_o

Edited June 24, 2013 by Gohan

[Hamba Tuhan]

But now as I look through the current subjects trending here I wonder if this site like future missionary.com is safe for anyone preparing for a mission.

You are a funny man. It would appear that you genuinely believe that information is the problem, not deception cloaked by an intentional misuse of information.

[Tacenda]

Stormrider, I told my bishop, through email, my problem with finding info concerning JS' s polygamy. And got nothing back, naughta, zilch. He hasn't invited me to discuss my problem. He glossed right over, won't even address it. So how can you say all one of us needs to do is go to a member or the bishop, it is apparently taboo.

Something came up today that concerns me, a neighbor told my husband after church that his son that went to all 4 yrs. of seminary will not get a diploma. Apparently he had an interview with our current bishop and expressed disbelief in the church and now gets nothing to show for those 4 years. My neighbor told my husband that his wife has been up nights worrying over it. Is nonbelief enough to keep you from receiving that seminary diploma? How many missionaries go out without a testimony? Most likely many.

[Robert F. Smith]

Isn't MDDB as close to "inoculation" as exists on the Net? I think the balance of TBM to skeptic to non believer and non Mormon participation here is pretty close to ideal. That means it is going to expose topics of controversy to previously unaware participants, while offering the standard Mormon and apologist take on all issues, while also exploring the critical and skeptical aspects quite thoroughly. Any missionary going forth after engaging here will be better prepared in the field. Imho, of course....

BlueDreams said:

I was on this board for 6 or so years before serving a mission. Most of the issues mentioned simply didn't come up, but it didn't hurt either and the idea of seeking out answers for myself was a well established pattern for my life by then. I would say it's not a bad place to be....but I would also state that it shouldn't be expected to really prepare on for a mission. It's not its purpose and it simply doesn't satisfy it. The greatest preparation is nothing really new: study the scriptures, serve those around you, and gain a better relationship with the Lord.

With luv,

BD

Of the two of you, BD seems to have the much clearer and more accurate sense of perspective. I don't see any Mormon & anti-Mormon balance, but many shades of grey -- often very poorly informed, though well-intentioned. This is a discussion board, not an innoculation clinic. Some, like inquiringmind, come here with excellent and sincere questions, others come with a chip on their shoulder, perhaps to settle an old score. Not always, but sometimes, the truth (or something like it) is found in the course of the discussion. Of course that is the whole point of a discussion (if we think like Socrates or John Stuart Mill).

[Robert F. Smith]

Stormrider, I told my bishop, through email, my problem with finding info concerning JS' s polygamy. And got nothing back, naughta, zilch. He hasn't invited me to discuss my problem. He glossed right over, won't even address it. So how can you say all one of us needs to do is go to a member or the bishop, it is apparently taboo.

More likely he fears entrapment via email. You need only call him or his exec secretary and schedule a personal interview. What is said in his office should stay in his office.

........................................... How many missionaries go out without a testimony? Most likely many.

On what basis, Tacenda, did you reach that conclusion? I would say that the vast majority go with a testimony -- a more youthful one than they will return with. Maturity doesn't happen overnite, does it?

[Nevo]

Something came up today that concerns me, a neighbor told my husband after church that his son that went to all 4 yrs. of seminary will not get a diploma. Apparently he had an interview with our current bishop and expressed disbelief in the church and now gets nothing to show for those 4 years. My neighbor told my husband that his wife has been up nights worrying over it. Is nonbelief enough to keep you from receiving that seminary diploma?

That's too bad. The Seminaries & Institutes policy manual stipulates that there be a "worthiness clearance" prior to graduation. I suppose it is up to the bishop as to how worthiness is defined, but I wouldn't think that non-belief by itself would ordinarily render someone ineligible for seminary graduation—after all, even non-members can graduate from seminary.

Here's the wording of the policy:

"A worthiness clearance from the student’s bishop is required for all certificates except course completion. A list of students eligible to be honored with graduation diplomas or certificates of achievement at the seminary graduation exercises should be sent to bishops in advance of the printing of graduation programs. This allows bishops time to determine worthiness and, if necessary, work with students to resolve any concerns. Those not of our faith may also be cleared for worthiness by the bishops of the wards where they live or attend seminary, or by the clergy of their own faith. To maintain confidentiality, worthiness clearance information from bishops should only be given to stake presidents and not to S&I personnel. If a bishop requests additional time beyond seminary graduation to resolve worthiness issues, the diploma or certificate should be given to the bishop. It could then be awarded privately by the bishop when appropriate."

Now, that said, disbelief isn't the same thing non-belief. There is a difference between not knowing if the Church is true and actively believing that the Church is not true and is based on a fraud. If your neighbor's son expressed the latter view, I can see why the bishop may have withheld his recommendation.

[Stone holm]

Never understood the big deal about seminary graduation.

[Garden Girl]

Stormrider, I told my bishop, through email, my problem with finding info concerning JS' s polygamy. And got nothing back, naughta, zilch. He hasn't invited me to discuss my problem. He glossed right over, won't even address it. So how can you say all one of us needs to do is go to a member or the bishop, it is apparently taboo.

Hello Tacenda...

With all due respect, once again you go over the top... "It is apparently taboo" is over the top... I agree with Robert F. Smith that you need to make an appointment to have a personal meeting with the bishop... tell him how you really need him to help you with your concerns and then express yourself to him... If you've done so before, do so again.

Incidentally, how do you know he "glossed right over" your email... that he "won't even address it." Did he even get your email... how many other emails did he receive... perhaps he missed it...

From my own experience, and sending emails to my bishop... there was one that I didn't get an answer to... so I fired off another to him asking why... he sent a reply that he'd been gone and emails had piled up and he hadn't yet had time to respond, and then went on to address my concern and invited me to make an appointment if I wanted to talk further. In no way did I ever consider that it was "taboo" to bring up my concern to him...

You do have a way of jumping to conclusions, taking the most negative view (It is apparently taboo) when that is not actually the case at all...

Having said all that... let me say I should probably soften my words as I in no way mean to sound harsh... really... and I have only the best wishes for you... you know that...

GG

[Hamba Tuhan]

And got nothing back, naughta, zilch. He hasn't invited me to discuss my problem. He glossed right over, won't even address it

If I sent an email to my bishop and he didn't respond, I would assume that he didn't get the email.

How many missionaries go out without a testimony? Most likely many.

Only those who are willing to lie

• first to their bishops in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their stake presidents in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their bishops, again, in a temple recommend interview
  
• and then to their stake presidents, again, in a temple recommend interview.
  

Maybe you know youth very different to the ones I know, but ours wouldn't even take the first step of dishonesty outlined above, let alone just keep lying all the way through.

[Stone holm]

If I sent an email to my bishop and he didn't respond, I would assume that he didn't get the email.

Only those who are willing to lie

• first to their bishops in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their stake presidents in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their bishops, again, in a temple recommend interview
  
• and then to their stake presidents, again, in a temple recommend interview.
  

Maybe you know youth very different to the ones I know, but ours wouldn't even take the first step of dishonesty outlined above, let alone just keep lying all the way through.

Well you could make that assumption if it makes you feel better, I always encourage assumptions that make you feel better about leadership even if they might be unwarranted. Nothing wrong with the benefit of the doubt.

[Calm]

So how can you say all one of us needs to do is go to a member or the bishop, it is apparently taboo.

Depends on the bishop. I know of several who are quite willing to engage in discussion with those questioning, including if they don't know and have to do some research to find out stuff.

[Calm]

Never understood the big deal about seminary graduation.

I believe it is a big deal if you want to go to BYU or another church school.