Is Mormon Dialogue & Discussion A Safe Place For Future Missionaries?

[Tacenda]

Hello Tacenda...

With all due respect, once again you go over the top... "It is apparently taboo" is over the top... I agree with Robert F. Smith that you need to make an appointment to have a personal meeting with the bishop... tell him how you really need him to help you with your concerns and then express yourself to him... If you've done so before, do so again.

Incidentally, how do you know he "glossed right over" your email... that he "won't even address it." Did he even get your email... how many other emails did he receive... perhaps he missed it...

From my own experience, and sending emails to my bishop... there was one that I didn't get an answer to... so I fired off another to him asking why... he sent a reply that he'd been gone and emails had piled up and he hadn't yet had time to respond, and then went on to address my concern and invited me to make an appointment if I wanted to talk further. In no way did I ever consider that it was "taboo" to bring up my concern to him...

You do have a way of jumping to conclusions, taking the most negative view (It is apparently taboo) when that is not actually the case at all...

Having said all that... let me say I should probably soften my words as I in no way mean to sound harsh... really... and I have only the best wishes for you... you know that...

GG

It's a wake-up call GG, sound as harsh as you need. It never entered my mind that he might not have received my email. He is now my SP, so he is super busy. Besides, why bother anyone in the ward when I have this ward, I mean board.

You are derailing again and have been removed again. If you have a personal issue start your own topic in social hall.

[Stone holm]

I believe it is a big deal if you want to go to BYU or another church school.

Is it required now? My three eldest didn't graduate and they all got in.

[Calm]

It's a wake-up call GG, sound as harsh as you need. It never entered my mind that he might not have received my email. He is now my SP, so he is super busy. Besides, why bother anyone in the ward when I have this ward, I mean board.

There is also a possibility that he read it and meant to reply to it after some thought and then something happened to drive it out of his mind. Even important things can be forgotten if not given the right conditions to set in the brain. Happens to me all the time....that is why I go back over my emails from time to time, but then I don't get too many and I would assume a bishop doesn't have the luxury....and since he hopefully isn't so prone to forgetting as I am so probably doesn't feel the need to do so.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Nothing wrong with the benefit of the doubt.

Many things right with it, too. I'm grateful members of my ward give me the benefit of the doubt all the time. Sometimes I'm so busy at work that my emails pile up for a couple of weeks before I get to them, and sometimes I never do, hoping that essential communication will be repeated. A couple of months ago the university decided to migrate my email account to the 'cloud'; they told me I'd be without service overnight, but it turned out to be 20 days without email. Last week, our music director texted me to ask if I'd got her recommendations for music for yesterday's ward conference. I told her I had and had approved them. She pointed out that I hadn't approved anything, so I checked, and I hadn't. I had a distinct memory of writing a reply email, but apparently I'd done it in my head. Considering that I went to work Monday morning and worked straight through til 2am Wednesday morning, I guess hallucinatory emails are not out of the question. Yep, I'm very glad for my ward members giving me the benefit of the doubt ... especially if they think it might be 'unwarranted'.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

Is it required now? My three eldest didn't graduate and they all got in.

I don't think it is required, but it is counted towards acceptance:

Each application is then reviewed and evaluated according to the following elements: seminary attendance, service, leadership, personal essays, individual talents, creativity, AP/IB courses taken, unique or special circumstances, and other factors showing a student’s ability to strengthen the BYU community.

College Prep Checklist

• Live the standards of the LDS Church
  
• Attend and graduate from LDS seminary
  
• Enroll in quality coursework (recommendations)
  
  • Four years of mathematics
    
  • Four years of English
    
  • Two to three years of laboratory science
    
  • Two years of history or government
    
  • Two or more years of foreign language
    

  [*]Take ACT/SAT in junior year and again the fall of senior year

  [*]Get involved with extracurricular activities

  [*]Keep in mind the cost—save money!

• 
  

http://saas.byu.edu/tools/b4byu/sites/b4/?new-freshman/acceptance-criteria2/

[Calm]

I had a distinct memory of writing a reply email, but apparent I'd done it in my head.

I tend to rehearse most things in my head before writing them and often before saying them or I may imagine a conversation that would take place if I had the chance....and then I remember these things as if I've already had done them. Very, very disturbing when I find out I hadn't at times....and my kids and husband get a bit annoyed about it too so I've had to make sure I hold only myself accountable for these conversations and let all of them off the hook.

[Stone holm]

I don't think it is required, but it is counted towards acceptance:

• 
  

http://saas.byu.edu/tools/b4byu/sites/b4/?new-freshman/acceptance-criteria2/

If he is a Mormon and makes that admission he will flunk the separate ecclesiastical interview for admission anyway. Good grades, college prep, good test scores and a clean ecclesiastical interview will normally get you in. Only, one of my three eldest actually stayed there until he graduated. The other two were so sick of the place they transferred out after their first year, and I didn't have the heart to force the next four to go there at least one year. It is a great place for a kid to find a Mormon spouse though.

[Robert F. Smith]

If I sent an email to my bishop and he didn't respond, I would assume that he didn't get the email.

Only those who are willing to lie

• first to their bishops in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their stake presidents in a missionary application interview
  
• then to their bishops, again, in a temple recommend interview
  
• and then to their stake presidents, again, in a temple recommend interview.
  

Maybe you know youth very different to the ones I know, but ours wouldn't even take the first step of dishonesty outlined above, let alone just keep lying all the way through.

There are rare instances of this actually happening. A well-known case is that of Mark Hofmann, whom many consider to be a sociopath. He rec'd his enowments, went on his mission to England, returned and married in the temple, etc., all while disbelieving and engaging in criminal activities (forgery), ending with murder, for which he remains in the Utah State Prison system.

[crixus]

As to the question in the Op Ed, I can think of several notable apologists who eventually left the Church after a healthy stint in apologetics (Chris Tolworthy, Kerry Shirts, Kevin Graham, Paul Osborne, Mike Reed, etc), after trying for years to defend the Church on various fronts. I don't know of any missionaries who have gone through this after visiting the board, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Avatar4321]

Best place for future missionaries will be reading the scriptures.

[why me]

It's a wake-up call GG, sound as harsh as you need. It never entered my mind that he might not have received my email. He is now my SP, so he is super busy. Besides, why bother anyone in the ward when I have this ward, I mean board.

She did bring up a good point. You did sound a little negative about your experience. But now you have a different way to look at your experience, one that is just a little more positive.

[Kenngo1969]

I came here previous to serving my mission and it was a wonderful help. It wasn't missionary prep really (No one asked those anti-mormon questions to me on my mission), but it did help me to realize there were smart people asking difficult questions about the church and that there were smart people who had answers to those challenges. In that sense it helped me strengthen my resolve that being in the church was the right place.

Holy Crap! No one asked you any anti-Mormon questions?! Sounds like a really boring mission! (Just kidding, of course! Thank you for your service. )

[Kenngo1969]

Depends on the bishop. I know of several who are quite willing to engage in discussion with those questioning, including if they don't know and have to do some research to find out stuff.

But Cal, if they do that, they'll have no choice but to leave the Church! Is that what you want?! What, are you some kind of MA&DB Double-Agent or something! (Avoid doing any research on the Church's foundational claims at all costs! That's what I say! )

[Kenngo1969]

Meh, I started posting here three years before my mission, and I turned out all right...I think... O_o

Isn't the jury still out on that one Gohan?! I mean, the inevitable result of hanging out too much in this corner of cyberspace is that you'll simply be compelled to leave the Church of Jesus Christ: you'll have no choice!

[Scott Lloyd]

If he is a Mormon and makes that admission he will flunk the separate ecclesiastical interview for admission anyway. Good grades, college prep, good test scores and a clean ecclesiastical interview will normally get you in.

Competition is very keen these days. A lot of people are applying who have all those qualifications plus seminary attendance. It may not be a requirement, but I'm confident it does give you the edge, all other things being equal.

Only, one of my three eldest actually stayed there until he graduated. The other two were so sick of the place they transferred out after their first year, and I didn't have the heart to force the next four to go there at least one year.

With all the people who are longing to enroll but can't, it strikes me as inappropriate to force one to go who doesn't already see the value in it or who generally has a bad attitude about it. Tithing - including the widow's mite - subsidizes the education of everyone who enrolls there.

It is a great place for a kid to find a Mormon spouse though.

It's valuable for things beyond that.

I suppose it's like a lot of other things, though: You get out of it what you expect to find in it.

Incidentally, not everybody finds their Mormon spouse there; I didn't.

[Kenngo1969]

As to the question in the Op Ed...

What, are we in the newspaper now? Or was your spell-check or grammar-check being just a little too overzealous with your post?

I can think of several notable apologists who eventually left the Church after a healthy stint in apologetics (Chris Tolworthy, Kerry Shirts, Kevin Graham, Paul Osborne, Mike Reed, etc), after trying for years to defend the Church on various fronts. I don't know of any missionaries who have gone through this after visiting the board, but it wouldn't surprise me.

As long as we're playing "Apologist-vs-Critic" Poker ™ , I'll see your Tolworthy, Shirts, Graham, Osborne, and Reed, and raise you a Don Bradley! (I'm sure there are others on "my" side, although this game of "AVC ™ Poker" might be pretty pointless: who says, after deciding one way or another, that anyone would (1) announce their (dis-)belief, or (2) stick around after so deciding? I can think of one notable exception to the first rule, however: there was a poster who went by the name of Moxy. He came to one of this Board's predecessors sometime back a skeptic; had a remarkable experience, the details of which he didn't disclose; announced his change of heart in his last post; and rode off into the sunset, never to be heard from again. (Whoever heard of something like that happening, right? MA&DB is like smack: try it once, and you're hooked! It's like the Eagles' Hotel California: "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!"

P.S.: Deciding to stay and deciding to leave are complicated processes. This Board may have been a factor in such processes for some, but those processes are so complicated that I don't see how any single thing could be the determining factor.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

Depends on the bishop. I know of several who are quite willing to engage in discussion with those questioning, including if they don't know and have to do some research to find out stuff.

I can think of at least four ex-bishops here on the board -- Rongo, mfbukowski, Bernard Gui and Dan Peterson (and one current one on this very thread, Hamba Tuhan) who fit this description.

ETA:

Since writing this, I have thought of Scott Gordon and, if I recall correctly, Greg Smith.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

I don't think it is required, but it is counted towards acceptance:

• 
  

http://saas.byu.edu/tools/b4byu/sites/b4/?new-freshman/acceptance-criteria2/

I have found over the years that youth in the Church often get really bad, or no counselling with regards to college. For a poor kid, the chances of him or her making enough money at a part time job in high school to make a meaningful dent in the cost of college is pretty slim although BYU is a very good deal. The time spent attempting to do so would be better spent developing a résumé for college in extracurriculars.

[Johnnie Cake]

I typically don't deal well with a non-Mormon actively participating in teaching prospective members, missionaries, etc. about the Church or, better said, sharing the beauties of the gospel. I still get a big yawn about the criticism of the Church not preparing members well enough. OK, so LDS have a reputation about knowing the scriptures; loving God, and striving to follow his teachings; we provide seminary for four years to better know the scriptures and we offer a missionary prep course; further, we strive to teach members to pray, to come to a personal relationship with our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ. However, this does not seem to be adequate preparation for our sincere, only-well-meaning, sincere critics. Then there are those with new found friends a world away and they are concerned about what this poor soul is exposed to about the restored Church of Jesus Christ. I can understand that it is impossible to say, "Friend, have you talked about your concerns to an actual member? or the more mundane, "You may need to talk to your Bishop" or even, "Maybe you should pray about this". No, that is not what is done, but it is to show astonishment that all the things he has ever heard are "real" and there is no other answer, "Isn't that shocking?", but gosh, you are my good, new-found, friend. At this point I typically need to clean off my shoes from that projectile vomiting episode I go through with these type of things. It is just a visceral reaction to both hypocrisy and deceit. Here is the deal, the LDS Church and its members have nothing to fear from an in-depth investigation of scriptures or history. Faith and Reason are eternal companions and they should never be separated by a disciple of Christ. The key is to never let Reason overpower Faith or vice-versa. What we do have to fear are those wolves in sheep clothing that do everything but lead people to Christ. That is the reason we send people into the world, to preach Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. I am sure God appreciates your benevolent actions with "Peter, the poor disillusioned African", but really it is farcical to bring this bit of story up here. What do you expect us to do? I think this little bit of fantasy has worn out any welcome I can provide. I need to return to real life and real people with real problems.

Storm Rider, I don't know if you followed the 2 previous threads on this...but Peter did contact both his bishop and stake president...both told him that the information he discovered (the 140 years of church created justifications for the priesthood ban) was anti-mormon lies. He merely asked me if this was the case...I told him the truth that no these things were not anti mormon lies that church authorities had indeed made these statements to explain away and justify the ban..I have subsequently directed him here

Edited June 24, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Hamba Tuhan]

I can think of at least four ex-bishops here on the board -- Rongo, mfbukowski, Bernard Gui and Dan Peterson (and one current one on this very thread, Hamba Tuhan) who fit this description.

Just to clarify, I'm not a bishop, but I do currently serve as first counsellor in our bishopric. And yes, I'd be more than happy to talk to a ward member about any kind of concern. I even make 'house calls'. Just last night I picked a ward member up at his request, drove him partway up a hillside above our valley, and let him unload a whole raft of concerns (though related to the dysfunction in his family).

Edited June 24, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Johnnie Cake]

MA&DB is like smack: try it once, and you're hooked! It's like the Eagles' Hotel California: "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!"

.

Ummmm...but you can get kicked out and banned

[Johnnie Cake]

I can think of at least four ex-bishops here on the board -- Rongo, mfbukowski, Bernard Gui and Dan Peterson (and one current one on this very thread, Hamba Tuhan) who fit this description.

ETA:

Since writing this, I have thought of Scott Gordon and, if I recall correctly, Greg Smith.

You forgot to to mention me...J/K I was never bishop...only high councilor and member of a bishopric

Edited June 24, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[Hamilton Porter]

Three dumb questions, you're outta there!

[The Nehor]

Storm Rider, I don't know if you followed the 2 previous threads on this...but Peter did contact both his bishop and stake president...both told him that the information he discovered (the 140 years of church created justifications for the priesthood ban) was anti-mormon lies. He merely asked me if this was the case...I told him the truth that no these things were not anti mormon lies that church authorities had indeed made these statements to explain away and justify the ban..I have subsequently directed him here

Yes, and I expect we will soon hear you tragically recounting how he came here, was shocked and hurt, and that our foolishness resulted in him giving up his mission and leaving the Church.

Assuming one buys your story in the first place.

[Stone holm]

I have found over the years that youth in the Church often get really bad, or no counselling with regards to college. For a poor kid, the chances of him or her making enough money at a part time job in high school to make a meaningful dent in the cost of college is pretty slim although BYU is a very good deal. The time spent attempting to do so would be better spent developing a résumé for college in extracurriculars.

I have also run in the nonsense of people putting so much emphasis on Church activities including making Eagle and graduating from seminary thinking that those will land them scholarships. In my experience graduating from seminary has about zero impact on scholarships, while they yak about Eagle scholarships they are very few and tend to be too small to worry about. Making Eagle is important if they are considering making a bid for a military academy which are even better deals than BYU but much, much harder to get into. Our family simply could not have afforded to get everyone through college without scholarships, fortunately my eldest made a bid for the Air Force Academy and we got really good advice as to how to put together resumes for college which all of the rest of the kids built on, and they all all got into really good schools. My heart aches to have watched members with really smart kids get next to nothing in the way of scholarships because they were paying too much attention to the wrong people who really had no clue what they were talking about.