Pre-Adamites?

[Questing Beast]

The "fall" is taught in LDS doctrine as a voluntary, planned thing. That means that, "scientifically", you could have evolution at work on Earth for millions of years, before the first "man" is taken off of it, "educated" or prepared, and then sent back in an upgraded, immortalized state. Meanwhile, "mankind" has continued to evolve on Earth. The Garden is created and "Adam and Eve" are placed in it by GtF, as planned, and then the "fall" happens, as planned, and here we are, c. six thousand years later. It all fits. No problem that I can see. Especially when we remember that "it is (all) figurative where the man and woman are concerned"....

[cinepro]

The "fall" is taught in LDS doctrine as a voluntary, planned thing. That means that, "scientifically", you could have evolution at work on Earth for millions of years, before the first "man" is taken off of it, "educated" or prepared, and then sent back in an upgraded, immortalized state. Meanwhile, "mankind" has continued to evolve on Earth. The Garden is created and "Adam and Eve" are placed in it by GtF, as planned, and then the "fall" happens, as planned, and here we are, c. six thousand years later. It all fits. No problem that I can see. Especially when we remember that "it is (all) figurative where the man and woman are concerned"....

Since the effects of the fall extended in scope to all animals on the planet, not just Adam and Eve, it doesn't "fit" at all.

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 6:48).

http://www.lds.org/s...ng=eng&letter=d

After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

http://www.lds.org/s...ng=eng&letter=f

As for whether or not the Church will ever accept an "allegorical" fall...

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the Fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man.

http://www.lds.org/s...ng=eng&letter=f

Edited June 14, 2013 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

The "fall" is taught in LDS doctrine as a voluntary, planned thing. That means that, "scientifically", you could have evolution at work on Earth for millions of years, before the first "man" is taken off of it, "educated" or prepared, and then sent back in an upgraded, immortalized state. Meanwhile, "mankind" has continued to evolve on Earth. The Garden is created and "Adam and Eve" are placed in it by GtF, as planned, and then the "fall" happens, as planned, and here we are, c. six thousand years later. It all fits. No problem that I can see. Especially when we remember that "it is (all) figurative where the man and woman are concerned"....

Not exactly as I see it, but this theory certainly works and covers all the necessary bases, it seems.

[mfbukowski]

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the Fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man.

This dictionary provides a concise collection of definitions and explanations of Bible topics. It is based primarily on the biblical text, supplemented by information from the other standard works. A variety of doctrinal, cultural, and historical subjects are treated, and a short summary is included for each book of the Bible. Many of the entries draw on the work of Bible scholars and are subject to reevaluation as new research or revelation comes to light. This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth.

http://www.lds.org/s...res/bd?lang=eng

Emphasis added

Edited June 14, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Questing Beast]

Not exactly as I see it, but this theory certainly works and covers all the necessary bases, it seems.

Can, but only if the "Garden" is a specific place that was upgraded to immortality, and the animal life within it as well. That is the "earth/world", or even the "whole earth/world", from a specific pov: that being: "earth/world" means a place or location, extensive in size, and all that is being referred to or spoken of. Scriptural use of the term "earth/world" or even "whole earth/world" makes this obvious. E.g. "that all the world should be taxed" hardly included Asians or the many unknown tribes of Africa, much less the American hemisphere....

Edited June 14, 2013 by Questing Beast

[mfbukowski]

Can, but only if the "Garden" is a specific place that was upgraded to immortality, and the animal life within it as well. That is the "earth/world", or even the "whole earth/world", from a specific pov: that being: "earth/world" means a place or location, extensive in size, and all that is being referred to or spoken of. Scriptural use of the term "earth/world" or even "whole earth/world" makes this obvious. E.g. "that all the world should be taxed" hardly included Asians or the many unknown tribes of Africa, much less the American hemisphere....

You forgot the Wonderful World of Disney.

Just google "the world of" and see the number of hits you get. 13 BILLION if I read all those zeros correctly.

I think it can be safely said that you are justified in interpreting the word that way.

[cinepro]

http://www.lds.org/s...res/bd?lang=eng

Emphasis added

Those quotes only summarize what has been taught consistently and clearly by the scriptures, Prophets and Apostles, and by the Church in official articles and curriculum over the past 180+ years.

These alternate "limited Eden"/ allegorical creation theories are interesting and creative, but since this is a "Mormon" discussion board, I only thought it appropriate that someone should actually introduce what the Church teaches on these subjects.

[Stone holm]

Those quotes only summarize what has been taught consistently and clearly by the scriptures, Prophets and Apostles, and by the Church in official articles and curriculum over the past 180+ years.

These alternate "limited Eden"/ allegorical creation theories are interesting and creative, but since this is a "Mormon" discussion board, I only thought it appropriate that someone should actually introduce what the Church teaches on these subjects.

So you believe that it is crystal clear doctrine that the Garden of Eden meant the entire Earth?

[ERayR]

So you believe that it is crystal clear doctrine that the Garden of Eden meant the entire Earth?

Those advocating the whole earth garden just where did God usher Adam and Eve to when he removed them from the garden?

[Stone holm]

Those advocating the whole earth garden just where did God usher Adam and Eve to when he removed them from the garden?

I agree that is a problem. I think they are drawing unintended implications about statements which are merely meaning to say that the millenium would be similar to the garden.

[Rivers]

Let me go on with my heretical theory. The five days of creation was the prelude to the sixth day -- some have suggested that there was a crudeness, unfinished element through these creation periods ("God saw that he was obeyed"). The sixth period was the finishing stage, where it all came together for Adam's benefit. It was at this stage that the Plan was implemented, while the previous days were prelude to that event.

The sixth day was an Event, unlike any of the previous days. The previous days were merely staging a staging for the sixth day. It was here, at this time, that the Garden of Eden, and the earth was transformed into a paradise.

I am probably mistaken, but it is an interesting concept. Others have hinted at this, but here it all is with the icing on top. It "fixes" alot of issues.

I like this theory. It makes sense to me that the Earth was tranformed into a garden state in the same way that the earth will be transformed at the millenium.

[Ahab]

So you believe that it is crystal clear doctrine that the Garden of Eden meant the entire Earth?

Let him think what he wants. It's pretty clear that the garden was in Eden, or more specifically, eastward in Eden.

[Stone holm]

I like this theory. It makes sense to me that the Earth was tranformed into a garden state in the same way that the earth will be transformed at the millenium.

I have never heard that theory before, I have heard the theory which suggests that the six days were actually the spiritual creations and everything was created on the seventh.

[Johnnie Cake]

I love to read how believers create all kinds of imaginary scenerios (that are completely unsupported by evidence) to allow for them to accommodate the realities of pre-6,000 year old humans so they can cling to their Adam myths

[Ahab]

I love to read how believers create all kinds of imaginary scenerios (that are completely unsupported by evidence) to allow for them to accommodate the realities of pre-6,000 year old humans so they can cling to their Adam myths

Your paradigm and ours are not mutually exclusive. You're just not seeing all the connections.

[mfbukowski]

Those quotes only summarize what has been taught consistently and clearly by the scriptures, Prophets and Apostles, and by the Church in official articles and curriculum over the past 180+ years.

These alternate "limited Eden"/ allegorical creation theories are interesting and creative, but since this is a "Mormon" discussion board, I only thought it appropriate that someone should actually introduce what the Church teaches on these subjects.

I believe every word the church teaches. I can see simply that there are other interpretations to the words and you cannot.

[mfbukowski]

I love to read how believers create all kinds of imaginary scenerios (that are completely unsupported by evidence) to allow for them to accommodate the realities of pre-6,000 year old humans so they can cling to their Adam myths

No, it is just that you have a dogmatic amd quite limited view of what constitutes "evidence".

I rather also enjoy the myths of quantum mechanics, don't you?

[canard78]

IIRC The Garden was eastward in Eden.

Wrong direction. It was Westward about 40 miles from 'Adam's Altar' IIRC

I'm surprised this hasn't been cited by the 'limited garden' theorists. 'Adam's Altar' is, after all an incredible historical artefact that survived through 6,000+ years (even though the Book of Mormon's stone box disappeared within about 100).

Or it's a campfire story.

[ERayR]

I love to read how believers create all kinds of imaginary scenerios (that are completely unsupported by evidence) to allow for them to accommodate the realities of pre-6,000 year old humans so they can cling to their Adam myths

Did you have a substantive point or are you just tossing bombs?

[Ahab]

Wrong direction. It was Westward about 40 miles from 'Adam's Altar' IIRC

I'm surprised this hasn't been cited by the 'limited garden' theorists. 'Adam's Altar' is, after all an incredible historical artefact that survived through 6,000+ years (even though the Book of Mormon's stone box disappeared within about 100).

Or it's a campfire story.

S'more, please.

[ERayR]

Wrong direction. It was Westward about 40 miles from 'Adam's Altar' IIRC

I'm surprised this hasn't been cited by the 'limited garden' theorists. 'Adam's Altar' is, after all an incredible historical artefact that survived through 6,000+ years (even though the Book of Mormon's stone box disappeared within about 100).

Or it's a campfire story.

It's really irrelevant.

[Kevin Christensen]

Those quotes only summarize what has been taught consistently and clearly by the scriptures, Prophets and Apostles, and by the Church in official articles and curriculum over the past 180+ years.

These alternate "limited Eden"/ allegorical creation theories are interesting and creative, but since this is a "Mormon" discussion board, I only thought it appropriate that someone should actually introduce what the Church teaches on these subjects.

Yes. Someone should introduce what the "Church" as a whole, and not just in part, actually teaches on these subjects, with all the variety, trends and schools of thought that actually exist in the past and present, as a realistic guide as to what exists to guide us towards the future.

http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/lds-science-quotes.pdf

http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-talmage.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[canard78]

It's really irrelevant.

So we're talking about 'where and what was the Garden of Eden' and the fact that a prophet pinpoints its location is 'irrelevant?'

Is that because he was only speaking figuratively, that the pile of stones is not really the location of where they sacrificed on leaving Eden?

Wilford Woodruff said:

"Again President Young said Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson Co Missouri, & when Adam was driven out of the garden of Eden He went about 40 miles to the Place which we Named Adam Ondi Ahman, & there built an Altar of Stone & offered Sacrifice. That Altar remains to this day. I saw it as Adam left it as did many others, & through all the revolutions of the world that Altar had not been disturbed. Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled & was translated it was where the gulf of Mexico now is. It left that gulf a body of water."

Wilford Woodruff, Waiting for Word’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, ed. by Susan Staker, 1993, p. 305, March 30, 1873

[ERayR]

So we're talking about 'where and what was the Garden of Eden' and the fact that a prophet pinpoints its location is 'irrelevant?'

Is that because he was only speaking figuratively, that the pile of stones is not really the location of where they sacrificed on leaving Eden?

Wilford Woodruff said:

Even if you could visit the house that Adam and Eve lived in while in the garden how would that make the principles and ordinance of the gospel any more valid? How would it improve the atonement of Jesus Christ?

[tagriffy]

So we're talking about 'where and what was the Garden of Eden' and the fact that a prophet pinpoints its location is 'irrelevant?'

Is that because he was only speaking figuratively, that the pile of stones is not really the location of where they sacrificed on leaving Eden?

Wilford Woodruff said:

There is a story that Elder James E. Talmage tested the rocks of Adam's altar and concluded they were made of fossiliferous material.