Pre-Adamites?

[thesometimesaint]

That would be fine if they were looking at all the evidence. Both sides dismiss evidence out of hand(hoaxes) without any investigation. A pox on both their houses and shame on them for claiming impartial and honest investigation.

I think we can both agree that there are differing levels of what constitutes evidence. IE; If I reach down and hold up a rock we both can agree it is a rock, even if we don't agree on much of anything else about it. OTOH If I were to claim it is really evidence for an invisible giant flying spaghetti monster from the planet Zoobegone. You'd rightly question that evidence, if not my sanity.

Believe my I'm not mocking the evidence. It is still evidence, but what is it evidence of?

[Stone holm]

I expect a lively discussion from/on both sides. I am willing/do accept religious arguments. What I can't accept is imposition of one side over the other. Science so far has the better arguments when it comes to the Natural world. I look forward to the better arguments from the Faith/Religious side of the argument.

I don't think we can always say that, Science goes from certain types of observable phenomenon and religion goes from certain types of revealed truths. Both are valuable. Science can cause us to take a hard look at what we are accepting as revealed truth and that for the most part has been going on over the decades and you see a development in some cases away from prior religious beliefs. Science, however, has not of recent been quite so willing to look at religious beliefs and see if by chance they have gotten something wrong -- of course that may depend on the scientific area you are talking about, I think physics is probably more likely to not dismiss religious belief as say biology. The resistance of biology I think is due in part to the rather vicious and demeaning attacks that some religions made on biologists -- which is odd, because the real debate wasn't triggered so much by Darwin initially, as it was by geologists who were coming up with questions about the origin of rocks, etc.

[Calm]

Supernatural means pertaining to God.

But not only that:

su·per·nat·u·ral ....

adjective

1.

of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law orphenomena; abnormal.

2.

of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.

3.

of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.

4.

of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

noun

5.

a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin;that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.

6.

behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.

7.

direct influence or action of a deity on earthly affairs.

8.

the supernatural.

a.

supernatural beings, behavior, and occurrences collectively.

b.

supernatural forces and the supernatural plane of existence: a deep fear of the supernatural.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/supernatural?s=t

[ERayR]

I think we can both agree that there are differing levels of what constitutes evidence. IE; If I reach down and hold up a rock we both can agree it is a rock, even if we don't agree on much of anything else about it. OTOH If I were to claim it is really evidence for an invisible giant flying spaghetti monster from the planet Zoobegone. You'd rightly question that evidence, if not my sanity.

Believe my I'm not mocking the evidence. It is still evidence, but what is it evidence of?

An anomalous artifact in 300,000,000 year old strata should merit some investigation and not a quick "It is an obvious hoax". Believe me both sides of this are guilty as charged. I am not rejecting the principle of natural selection. I just think it has been extrapolated beyond the bounds of its validity.

[Stone holm]

But not only that:

http://dictionary.re...upernatural?s=t

Whether it be supranatural or supernatural -- I tend not to see a dichotomy with natural other than the latter hasn't quite come up with an explanation for the former. Everything is natural, God works within natural laws, He just understands them better than we do and knows how to manipulate and control them better than we do.

[thesometimesaint]

At this vantage point nobody can really prove anything, however, as with most issues of this nature you can go through and assess which explanations are the least problematic. They may not be right -- it may be for example that God sped up the processing time for turning fossilized vegetation into coal and did a lot of things which would then make the truth exactly as it is described in Genesis. I don't think any Mormon who has done much reading of the early prophets of the restoration are likely to go very far down that route. It doesn't seem that it is really necessary to cling to the young Earth concept. What I am proposing here isn't so much an answer -- I don't think we are ever likely to have "the answer" until after we croak and get a chance to discuss it with actual participants -- so what I am proposing is trying to develop a way of looking at these issues. That way is to say " Okay the logic of our leaders have suggested explanations x, y, and z. Z doesn't really seem to flow logically with our other teachings. X and Y do flow logically. X doesn't require us to make major structural changes to our scientific understandings, Y requires us to suspend a huge number of scientific laws and understandings -- thus we would tend to lean towards X as the best explanation that fits with science and with our religion.

Of course something may always come along an upset the applecart, namely a major scientific breakthrough, or a major theological course correction. Evolution, except possibly as to Adam and Eve, seems to be a major quagmire when it comes to our religion because you have Prophets going every which way on the issue, sometimes with great gusto. Plus there is always that cultural thing wherein you were brought up to summarily dismiss evolution as an insidiously evil doctrine, or you are brought up to summarily dismiss revelations regarding creation as superstitious fables. I think if you can cut through those two cultural positions, then you can have some rational discussion. You might even be able to get people to take a serious look at some of the coal anomalies that ERay has brought up and figure out what the heck could have resulted in those occurring.

I'm not an Atheist so I don't have stake in the outcome per say. I'm comfortable with a very old earth and with the Children of God inheriting the bodies of the children of men when all was ready for them to do so. Any other hominids or even Homo Sapiens Sapiens before that time were not the Children of God.

I don't dismiss either, at least not when put into the right context. The evidence so far presented is that those anomalies are consistent with hoaxes. Do they warrant further investigation? The best answer is maybe. More substantiating evidence must be presented to even make a case for further investigation. IE; If I were to burn hydrogen in the presents of oxygen, and a miniature flying pink elephant popped out. Would that be evidence for those results or that I was either doing something incredibly wrong in my experiment, or was trying to carry off a hoax?

[ERayR]

I'm not an Atheist so I don't have stake in the outcome per say. I'm comfortable with a very old earth and with the Children of God inheriting the bodies of the children of men when all was ready for them to do so. Any other hominids or even Homo Sapiens Sapiens before that time were not the Children of God.

I don't dismiss either, at least not when put into the right context. The evidence so far presented is that those anomalies are consistent with hoaxes. Do they warrant further investigation? The best answer is maybe. More substantiating evidence must be presented to even make a case for further investigation. IE; If I were to burn hydrogen in the presents of oxygen, and a miniature flying pink elephant popped out. Would that be evidence for those results or that I was either doing something incredibly wrong in my experiment, or was trying to carry off a hoax?

TSS your wildly ridiculous examples are not helping matters. They are patronizing and smack of dismissal. Comparing flying pink elephants to real anomalies is a form of ridicule. If this is to remain a serious discussion I would expect better of you.

Thanks

Edited June 11, 2013 by ERayR

[thesometimesaint]

Whether it be supranatural or supernatural -- I tend not to see a dichotomy with natural other than the latter hasn't quite come up with an explanation for the former. Everything is natural, God works within natural laws, He just understands them better than we do and knows how to manipulate and control them better than we do.

It maybe that God does work within unknown natural laws. In that area I exceed the limits of my ignorance.

[Stone holm]

TSS you wildly ridiculous examples are not helping matters. They are patronizing and smack of dismissal. Comparing flying pink elephants to real anomalies is a form of ridicule. If this is to remain a serious discussion I would accept better of you.

Thanks

I agree that was over the top. I do admit to a certain skepticism about the bell in the coal, but I am in no position to judge and it appears there may have been other anomalies. I am not sure the coal anomalies really shed much light on the hominids though as I don't think we see any evidence that the early hominids were refining aluminum or casting bells of that quality, although I had a brother who was an exceptionally avid collector of arrowheads and such and he always reported that the better points were actually not American Indian in origin, but from time periods before that. But I don't think we associate the making of bronze with Neanderthal and earlier hominids.

[Stone holm]

It maybe that God does work within unknown natural laws. In that area I exceed the limits of my ignorance.

I think that is the most logical conclusion from the way Mormonism views and understands Deity.

[thesometimesaint]

TSS you wildly ridiculous examples are not helping matters. They are patronizing and smack of dismissal. Comparing flying pink elephants to real anomalies is a form of ridicule. If this is to remain a serious discussion I would accept better of you.

Thanks

Heck if anything other than water popped out. It would still be the results of either my doing something wrong or a deliberate hoax. .

Is it any more ridiculous than claiming that an anomalous finding that a manufactured piece of metal in 300 million year old coal is evidence of ancient aliens and/or that Evolution is wrong? If all evidence is of equal value I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[ERayR]

Heck if anything other than water popped out. It would still be the results of either my doing something wrong or a deliberate hoax. .

Is it any more ridiculous than claiming that an anomalous finding that a manufactured piece of metal in 300 million year old coal is evidence of ancient aliens and/or that Evolution is wrong? If all evidence is of equal value I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

The question is what is it evidence of? If it were just one that would be one thing but when you find anomalies of numerous kinds from all over then they deserve more than a summary dismisil and a snide remark about pink elephants. You know I have never endorsed ancient aliens but that faction is at least asking the questions and are not running around with blinders on.

Now I have a bridge to sell you. Nobody knows how it got there. It just evolved.

[Stone holm]

They were not descendants of Adam but part of the fifth day of creation.

Does that help.

Possibly, but there appear to have been quite a few of them in various sizes shapes and configurations, some like the Neanderthal were fairly advanced and it has been strongly argued that they interbred at some point with the descendants of Adam since Europeans appear to have some of the Neanderthal genes -- were they roaming around in the Garden with Adam?

[Questing Beast]

No, they lived in the land of Nod....

[Stone holm]

No, they lived in the land of Nod....

Thought that was after the Garden of Eden, Cain wasn't in the Garden of Eden and didn't get banished to the land of Nod until after he did Abel in.

[Questing Beast]

Yes, and the "Neanderthals" were there, in "Nod", the whole time, before, during and after the Garden of Eden....

[Lightbearer]

What is the logical or doctrinal basis for the idea that the entire Earth was in a paradisical state prior to the fall as opposed to just the Garden of Eden and that there was no death outside the Garden of Eden. I assume then that your unmortal Adam and Eve were vegetarians? I don't believe that 5-7 were ever in contention. I have no issue with the idea of Adam being the first man -- that is why i tried to refer to the others as Hominids. My first question should be taken as a request for you to expand on your opinion, not as a pesky CFR. The second question arises from the "no death" assertion that you made which I assume you meant to apply to animals as well.

Sorry I was late getting back to this but to answer your question the entire earth being in a paradisical state prior to the fall is implied by the accounts of the creation and also the Article of Faith already mentioned about this earth being renewed to receive it's paradisical state. The no death applying to animals is infered from the concept that all things were created spiritual before they were naturally upon the earth (all things have spirits) what was the mechanism for death to enter the scene if not for the fall? I mean did Christ only atone for the "40 acers" that was the garden of eden? Also the scripture mentions animals in the garden, where these different than the rest of the worlds animals? As for being vegetarians, yes while they were in the state known as the garden before the fall yes it only speaks of them partaking of the fruits of the garden. The only reference to dead animals were after the fall when God gave them "coats of skins" and also required them to offer sacrifice and burnt offerings (this of course was after the fall. For more information I suggest the following Ensign article by Elder Bruce R McConkie: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/06/christ-and-the-creation?lang=eng I quote from it here:

("Christ and the Creation" By Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Ensign June 1982

"The Lord expects us to believe and understand the true doctrine of the Creation—the creation of this earth, of man, and of all forms of life. Indeed, as we shall see, an understanding of the doctrine of creation is essential to salvation. Unless and until we gain a true view of the creation of all things we cannot hope to gain that fulness of eternal reward which otherwise would be ours.

God himself, the Father of us all, ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby his spirit children might advance and progress and become like him. It is the gospel of God, the plan of Eternal Elohim, the system that saves and exalts, and it consists of three things. These three are the very pillars of eternity itself. They are the most important events that ever have or will occur in all eternity. They are the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement.

Before we can even begin to understand the temporal creation of all things, we must know how and in what manner these three eternal verities—the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement—are inseparably woven together to form one plan of salvation. No one of them stands alone; each of them ties into the other two; and without a knowledge of all of them, it is not possible to know the truth about any one of them.

Be it known, then, that salvation is in Christ and comes because of his atoning sacrifice. The Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ is the heart and core and center of revealed religion. It ransoms men from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam. All men will be resurrected because our blessed Lord himself died and rose again, becoming thus the firstfruits of them that slept.

And further: Christ died to save sinners. He took upon himself the sins of all men on conditions of repentance. Eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God, is available because of what Christ did in Gethsemane and at Golgotha. He is both the resurrection and the life. Immortality and eternal life are the children of the Atonement. There is no language or power of expression given to man which can set forth the glory and wonder and infinite import of the ransoming power of the great Redeemer.

But, be it remembered, the Atonement came because of the Fall. Christ paid the ransom for Adam’s transgression. If there had been no Fall, there would be no Atonement with its consequent immortality and eternal life. Thus, just as surely as salvation comes because of the Atonement, so also salvation comes because of the Fall.

Mortality and procreation and death all had their beginnings with the Fall. The tests and trials of a mortal probation began when our first parents were cast out of their Edenic home. “Because that Adam fell, we are,” Enoch said, “and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.” (Moses 6:48.) One of the most profound doctrinal declarations ever made fell from the lips of mother Eve. She said: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.” (Moses 5:11.)

And be it also remembered that the Fall was made possible because an infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change, and thus was introduced the type and kind of existence needed to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation.

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus, existence came from God; death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ. And thus, in Lehi’s precise and eloquent language, all men are in “a state of probation” because of the Fall. And “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.” He was then in a state of physical immortality; meaning he would have lived forever because there was as yet no death. “And they [our first parents] would have had no children”; they would have been denied the experiences of a mortal probation and a mortal death; and it is out of these two things—out of death and the tests of mortality—that eternal life comes. But—thanks be to God—“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” (2 Ne. 2:21–26.)

Knowing all these things about the plan of salvation, we are in a position to consider the creation of this earth, of man, and of all forms of life. Knowing that the Creation is the father of the Fall, and that the Fall made possible the Atonement, and that salvation itself comes because of the Atonement, we are in a position to put the revealed knowledge about the Creation in a proper perspective.

Our analysis properly begins with the frank recital that our knowledge about the Creation is limited. We do not know the how and why and when of all things. Our finite limitations are such that we could not comprehend them if they were revealed to us in all their glory, fulness, and perfection. What has been revealed is that portion of the Lord’s eternal word which we must believe and understand if we are to envision the truth about the Fall and the Atonement and thus become heirs of salvation. This is all we are obligated to know in our day.

In a future day the Lord will expect more of his Saints in this regard than he does of us. “When the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things,” our latter-day revelations tell us—“Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof.” (D&C 101:32–33.) Pending that Millennial day it is our responsibility to believe and accept that portion of the truth about the Creation that has been dispensed to us in our dispensation.

Christ is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds so numerous that they cannot be numbered by man. As to his infinite and eternal creative and redemptive enterprises the divine word attests: “And worlds without number have I created,” saith the Father, “and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. … But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” As to all of the other worlds of the Lord’s creating we know only that it is his work and his glory “to bring to pass”—through the Redeemer—“the immortality and eternal life” of all their inhabitants. (Moses 1:33, 35, 39.)

In what is probably the most glorious vision given to mortals in this dispensation, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw “the Son, on the right hand of the Father,” and “heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:20, 23–24.) Christ is thus the Creator and the Redeemer. By him the worlds were made, and through his infinite atonement the inhabitants of those worlds are adopted into the divine family as heirs with himself. It was of this vision and of this provision whereby the Saints become the sons of God by faith that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote:

And I heard a great voice bearing record from heav’n,

He’s the Saviour and Only Begotten of God; By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,

Even all that careen in the heavens so broad.

Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,

Are sav’d by the very same Saviour of ours;

And, of course, are begotten God’s daughters and sons

By the very same truths and the very same powers.

(Millennial Star, vol. 4, pp. 49–55; cited in Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 66.)

That the infinite and eternal nature of creation and redemption are beyond mortal comprehension we are frank to admit. We are grateful that the Lord has given us this glimpse of everlasting truth relative to his unending labors; it is a brief view from his eternal perspective. But this earth and all that thereon is are our concern. It is the truths about “our creation,” as it were, that will chart the course for us in our enduring efforts to gain eternal life.

Let us then, with Abraham, gaze upon the great host of “noble and great ones” in premortal existence. “Among them” stands one “like unto God.” He is the great Jehovah, the Firstborn of the Father. We hear him say “unto those who were with him,” unto Michael and a great host of valiant souls: “We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell.” (Abr. 3:22, 24.)

And as we gaze and hear and ponder, our minds are enlightened and our understanding reaches to heaven. Truly Christ is the Creator of the future abode of the spirit children of the Father. But he does not work alone. The Creation is an organized venture; each of the other noble and great spirits plays his part. And the earth is created from matter that already exists. Truly the elements are eternal, and to create is to organize.

As the work goes forward we see the fulfillment of that which God spake to Moses in the Ten Commandments: “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.” (Ex. 20:11.) It is of the creative events that took place on each of these “days” that we shall now speak.

But first, what is a day? It is a specified time period; it is an age, an eon, a division of eternity; it is the time between two identifiable events. And each day, of whatever length, has the duration needed for its purposes. One measuring rod is the time required for a celestial body to turn once on its axis. For instance, Abraham says that according to “the Lord’s time” a day is “one thousand years” long. This is “one revolution … of Kolob,” he says, and it is after the Lord’s “manner of reckoning.” (Abr. 3:4.)

There is no revealed recitation specifying that each of the “six days” involved in the Creation was of the same duration. Our three accounts of the Creation are the Mosaic, the Abrahamic, and the one presented in the temples. Each of these stems back to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Mosaic and Abrahamic accounts place the creative events on the same successive days. We shall follow these scriptural recitations in our analysis. The temple account, for reasons that are apparent to those familiar with its teachings, has a different division of events. It seems clear that the “six days” are one continuing period and that there is no one place where the dividing lines between the successive events must of necessity be placed.

The Mosaic and the temple accounts set forth the temporal or physical creation, the actual organization of element or matter into tangible form. They are not accounts of the spirit creation. Abraham gives a blueprint as it were of the Creation. He tells the plans of the holy beings who wrought the creative work. After reciting the events of the “six days” he says: “And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth.” (Abr. 5:3.)

Then he says they performed as they had planned, which means we can, by merely changing the verb tenses and without doing violence to the sense and meaning, also consider the Abrahamic account as one of the actual creation.

The First Day—Elohim, Jehovah, Michael, a host of noble and great ones—all these played their parts. “The Gods” created the atmospheric heavens and the temporal earth. It was “without form, and void”; as yet it could serve no useful purpose with respect to the salvation of man. It was “empty and desolate”; life could not yet exist on its surface; it was not yet a fit abiding place for those sons of God who shouted for joy at the prospect of a mortal probation. The “waters” of the great “deep” were present, and “darkness reigned” until the divine decree: “Let there be light.” The light and the darkness were then “divided,” the one being called “Day” and the other “Night.” Clearly our planet was thus formed as a revolving orb and placed in its relationship to our sun. (See Moses 2:1–5; Abr. 4:1–5.)

The Second Day—On this day “the waters” were “divided” between the surface of the earth and the atmospheric heavens that surround it. A “firmament” or an “expanse” called “Heaven” was created to divide “the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse.” Thus, as the creative events unfold, provision seems to be made for clouds and rain and storms to give life to that which will yet grow and dwell upon the earth. (See Moses 2:6–8; Abr. 4:6–8.)

The Third Day—This is the day when life began. In it “the waters under the heaven” were “gathered together unto one place,” and the “dry land” appeared. The dry land was called “Earth,” and the assembled waters became “the Sea.” This is the day in which “the Gods organized the earth to bring forth” grass and herbs and plants and trees; and it is the day in which vegetation in all its varied forms actually came forth from the seeds planted by the Creators. This is the day when the decree went forth that grass, herbs, and trees could each grow only from “its own seed,” and that each could in turn bring forth only after its own “kind.” And thus the bounds of the plant and vegetable kingdoms were set by the hands of those by whom each varied plant and tree was made. (See Moses 2:9–13; Abr. 4:9–13.)

The Fourth Day—After seeds in all their varieties had been planted on the earth; after these had sprouted and grown; after each variety was prepared to bring forth fruit and seed after its own kind—the Creators organized all things in such a way as to make their earthly garden a productive and beautiful place. They then “organized the lights in the expanse of the heaven” so there would be “seasons” and a way of measuring “days” and “years.” We have no way of knowing what changes then took place in either the atmospheric or the sidereal heavens, but during this period the sun, moon, and stars assumed the relationship to the earth that now is theirs. At least the light of each of them began to shine through the lifting hazes that enshrouded the newly created earth so they could play their parts with reference to life in all its forms as it soon would be upon the new orb. (See Moses 2:14–19; Abr. 4:14–19.)

The Fifth Day—Next came fish and fowl and “every living creature” whose abode is “the waters.” Their Creators placed them on the newly organized earth, and they were given the command: “Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the sea; and let fowl multiply in the earth.” This command—as with a similar decree given to man and applicable to all animal life—they could not then keep, but they soon would be able to do so. Appended to this command to multiply was the heaven-sent restriction that the creatures in the waters could only bring forth “after their kind,” and that “every winged fowl” could only bring forth “after his kind.” There was no provision for evolvement or change from one species to another. (See Moses 2:20–23; Abr. 4:20–23.)

The Sixth Day—The crowning day of creation is at hand. In its early hours, the great Creators “made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything which creepeth upon the earth after his kind.” And the same procreative restrictions applied to them that apply to all forms of life; they too are to reproduce only after their kind.

All that we have recited is now accomplished, but what of man? Is man found upon the earth? He is not. And so “the Gods,” having so counseled among themselves, said: “Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness. … So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.” They then did as they had counseled, and the most glorious of all the creative acts was accomplished. Man is the crowning creature to step forth according to the divine will. He is in the image and likeness of the Eternal Elohim, and to him is given “dominion” over all things. And, then, finally, that his purposes shall roll everlastingly onward, God blesses the “male and female” whom he has created and commands them: “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” As the “sixth day” closes, the Creators, viewing their creative labors with satisfaction, see that “all things” which they have “made “are “very good.” (See Moses 2:24–31; Abr. 4:24–31.)

Such is the revealed account of the creation of all things. Our summary has combined elements from the Mosaic, the Abrahamic, and the temple accounts. At this point in the Mosaic record the scripture says: “Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.” The Lord then rests on the “seventh day.” (See Moses 3:1–3.)

Having come this far in our analysis of the Creation, we are led to ask: Why did the Lord give us these revealed accounts of the Creation? What purposes do they serve? How does the knowledge in them help us to work out our salvation or to center our affection in Him whose we are and by whom all things were made?

It is self-evident that we have received no useless and unneeded revelations. All that the Lord does has a purpose and serves a need. He expects us to treasure up his word, to ponder in our hearts its deep and hidden meanings, and to understand its full import. Those who have done so know that the revealed accounts of the Creation are designed to accomplish two great purposes. Their general purpose is to enable us to understand the nature of our mortal probation, a probation in which all men are being tried and tested “to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.” (Abr. 3:25.) Their specific purpose is to enable us to understand the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, which infinite and eternal Atonement is the very foundation upon which revealed religion rests.

It is only fair to say that a mere recitation of what took place during the “six days” and of the Lord’s resting on the “seventh day” do not of themselves set forth with clarity the purposes of the creation accounts. And so the Lord, as recorded in chapter 3 of the Mosaic account, proceeds to explain the purpose and nature of the Creation. He comments about the Creation. He reveals some facts and principles without which we cannot envision what the true doctrine of the Creation is. His statements are interpolative; they are inserted in the historical account to give us its true depth and meaning and import. They are not chronological recitations, but are commentary about what he had already set forth in its sequential order.

The Lord introduces his commentary about the Creation by saying that the events of the “six days,” which he has just recited, “are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth.” (Moses 3:4.) Thus, all things have been created; the work is finished; the account is revealed; but it can only be understood if some added truths are set forth. These deal with the premortal existence of all things and with the paradisiacal nature of the earth and of all created things when they first came from their Creator’s hand. Both of these concepts are interwoven in the same sentences, and in some instances the words used have a dual meaning and apply to both the premortal life and the paradisiacal creation.

And so the Lord says that he created “every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. … And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them.” (Moses 3:5.) Clearly he is speaking of the premortal existence of all things. This earth, all men, animals, fish, fowls, plants, all things—all lived first as spirit entities. Their home was heaven, and the earth was created to be the place where they could take upon themselves mortality.

“For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.” Apply these words to the spirit creation, if you will, and they will be true in such a context. But they have a much more pointed and important meaning. They are followed by the statement: “For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth; … and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.” (Moses 3:5–6.) The Lord is here telling us about the events of which he has spoken, about the events of the “six days,” about the account of the physical or tangible or temporal creation set forth in chapter 2 of Moses. He says the things so made were “spiritually” created and were not “naturally upon the face of the earth,” for the reasons quoted.

At this point we must insert a statement from our tenth article of faith: “We believe … that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.”[A of F 1:10] That is to say, when the earth was first created it was in a paradisiacal state, an Edenic state, a state in which there was no death. And when the Lord comes again, and the Millennial era is ushered in, the earth will return to its paradisiacal state and be renewed. It will be made new again; it will become a new heaven and a new earth whereon dwelleth righteousness. In that day, “there shall be no sorrow because there is no death” as we know it. (D&C 101:29.)

Thus we learn that the initial creation was paradisiacal; death and mortality had not yet entered the world. There was no mortal flesh upon the earth for any form of life. The Creation was past, but mortality as we know it lay ahead. All things had been created in a state of paradisiacal immortality. It was of this day that Lehi said: “And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.” (2 Ne. 2:22.) If there is no death, all things of necessity must continue to live everlastingly and without end.

Continuing the divine commentary about the Creation, we read: “And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.” (Moses 3:7.) How filled with meaning are these words! The physical body of Adam is made from the dust of this earth, the very earth to which the Gods came down to form him. His “spirit” enters his body, as Abraham expresses it. (See Abr. 5:7.) Man becomes a living, immortal soul; body and spirit are joined together. He has been created “spiritually,” as all things were because there is as yet no mortality. Then comes the Fall; Adam falls; mortality and procreation and death commence. Fallen man is mortal; he has mortal flesh; he is “the first flesh upon the earth.” And the effects of his fall pass upon all created things. They fall in that they too become mortal. Death enters the world; mortality reigns; procreation commences; and the Lord’s great and eternal purposes roll onward.

Thus, “all things” were created as spirit entities in heaven; then “all things” were created in a paradisiacal state upon the earth; that is, “spiritually were they created,” for there was as yet no death. They had spiritual bodies made of the elements of the earth as distinguished from the mortal bodies they would receive after the Fall when death would enter the scheme of things. Natural bodies are subject to the natural death; spiritual bodies, being paradisiacal in nature, are not subject to death. Hence the need for a fall and the mortality and death that grows out of it.

Thus, as the interpolative exposition in the divine word explains, “I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed.” (Moses 3:8.) Adam, our father, dwelt in the Garden of Eden. He was the first man of all men in the day of his creation, and he became the first flesh of all flesh through the Fall. Because of the Fall “all things” changed from their spiritual state to a natural state. And thus we read: “And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it.” (Moses 3:9; italics added.)

There is no evolving from one species to another in any of this. The account is speaking of “every tree” and of “all things.” Considering them as one collective unit, the account continues: “It remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food.” (Moses 3:9.)

The Lord’s commentary about the Creation also says: “Out of the ground I, the Lord God, formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; … and they were also living souls; for I, God, breathed into them the breath of life.” (Moses 3:19.) It also says, speaking figuratively, that Eve was formed from Adam’s rib. And in that primeval day, when neither death nor the probationary experiences of mortality had entered the world, “they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (See Moses 3:21–25.)

As to the Fall itself we are told that the Lord planted “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” in the midst of the garden. (Moses 3:9.) To Adam and Eve the command came: “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Moses 3:16–17.) Again the account is speaking figuratively. What is meant by partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that our first parents complied with whatever laws were involved so that their bodies would change from their state of paradisiacal immortality to a state of natural mortality.

Moses 4 gives the actual account of the Fall. Adam and Eve partake of the forbidden fruit and the earth is cursed and begins to bring forth thorns and thistles; that is, the earth falls to its present natural state. Eve is identified as “the mother of all living” (Moses 4:26); and she and Adam begin to have “sons and daughters” (Moses 5:3).

Thus, man is created in such a way that he can fall. He falls and brings mortality and procreation and death into being so that he can be redeemed by the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. And he is ransomed from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam so that he can have immortality and eternal life. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement are bound together as one.

These revealed verities about the creation of all things run counter to many of the speculations and theoretical postulates of the world. They are, however, what the inspired word sets forth, and we are duty bound to accept them. We are frank to admit that our knowledge of the creation of the universe, of this earth, of man, and of all living things is meager—perhaps almost miniscule—as compared to what there is to learn. But the Lord has revealed to us as much about the mystery of creation as is necessary for us in our probationary estate.

He has revealed to us the basic verities which enable us to understand the true doctrine of creation. This doctrine is that the Lord Jesus Christ is both the Creator and the Redeemer of this earth and all that on it is, save only man. It is that the Lord God himself, the Father of us all, came down and created man, male and female, in his own image and likeness. It is that the earth and all else were created in a paradisiacal state so there could be a fall. It is that the Great Creator became the Redeemer so he could ransom men from the effects of the Fall, thereby bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is that the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement are the three pillars of eternity. It is that all who accept him as both the Creator and the Redeemer have power to become joint-heirs with him and thereby inherit all that his Father hath.

Truly Christ is both the Creator and the Redeemer, as is portrayed by the marble reproduction of Thorvaldsen’s Christus that stands in the rotunda of the visitors’ center on Temple Square. There we see the Creator in majestic marble standing in the midst of eternity. On the domed ceiling and the encircling walls are paintings of the sidereal heavens with their endless orbs, all moving through an organized cosmos. And as we gaze upon what the hand of mere man has made, our minds are opened to see in a limited manner the miracle of creation.

There we also see the nail marks in those blessed hands, the hands that healed and blessed, and also in the feet that trod the dusty lanes of that earth which his hands had made. We see the gash in his pierced side from whence came the blood and water as a sign that the Atonement had been wrought. And our minds are opened, again in a limited manner, to see the miracle of redemption.

And as we ponder upon the wonder of it all, our gaze and thoughts dwell upon the beatific face and we feel the beckoning power of the outstretched arms. And the marvel in marble seems to breathe the breath of life and say: “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6.) “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matt. 11:28.) Come unto me and ye shall be saved. Come, inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world for all who accept me as the Creator and Redeemer. Come, be one with me; I am thy God."

Sorry for quoting the entire thing, I realize it is lengthy and I also include the link so people can read it at the original source. I hope this article helps to clarify my position.

[cdowis]

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

..

Thus, “all things” were created as spirit entities in heaven; then “all things” were created in a paradisiacal state upon the earth; that is, “spiritually were they created,” for there was as yet no death. They had spiritual bodies made of the elements of the earth as distinguished from the mortal bodies they would receive after the Fall when death would enter the scheme of things

A few observations:

1. I will say this carefully.

This has the look and feel similar to those statements regarding the BOM geography. An opinion expressed as if it were doctrine.

2. He expresses the interesting idea that the "spiritual creation" involved the joining both of spirit and the natural elements. I have always understood there were two separate creations, the spiritual and the physical.

Anyway, the proposal that death existed prior to the sixth day of creation is a working hypothesis, to reconcile the physical evidence with the scriptural record.

[Flyonthewall]

I think we can both agree that there are differing levels of what constitutes evidence. IE; If I reach down and hold up a rock we both can agree it is a rock, even if we don't agree on much of anything else about it. OTOH If I were to claim it is really evidence for an invisible giant flying spaghetti monster from the planet Zoobegone. You'd rightly question that evidence, if not my sanity.

Believe my I'm not mocking the evidence. It is still evidence, but what is it evidence of?

Unless, of course, invisible flying spaghetti monsters from the planet Zoobegone poop rocks...

[Stone holm]

A few observations:

1. I will say this carefully.

This has the look and feel similar to those statements regarding the BOM geography. An opinion expressed as if it were doctrine.

2. He expresses the interesting idea that the "spiritual creation" involved the joining both of spirit and the natural elements. I have always understood there were two separate creations, the spiritual and the physical.

Anyway, the proposal that death existed prior to the sixth day of creation is a working hypothesis, to reconcile the physical evidence with the scriptural record.

I agree. BRM, in my opinion, sometimes took sound teaching and drew opinionated implications therefrom which might or might not be correct. We aren't dealing with the Spiritual Creation here. The number of days involved in the Physical Creation provides enough fodder for its own topic and someone should open it. Nor is it a very strong argument that the use of the word "renewed" or even the word "restored" necessarily means that the whole Earth had to have been originally Terrestrial which is in the same way inconsistent with the description of a specific location for a garden and the verbiage about being driven out. Plus the idea of death being suspended on the whole planet really does violence to the physical evidence.

[SamIam]

I agree. BRM, in my opinion, sometimes took sound teaching and drew opinionated implications therefrom which might or might not be correct. We aren't dealing with the Spiritual Creation here. The number of days involved in the Physical Creation provides enough fodder for its own topic and someone should open it. Nor is it a very strong argument that the use of the word "renewed" or even the word "restored" necessarily means that the whole Earth had to have been originally Terrestrial which is in the same way inconsistent with the description of a specific location for a garden and the verbiage about being driven out. Plus the idea of death being suspended on the whole planet really does violence to the physical evidence.

Clearly your opinion....It doesn't make sense to me to take a topic of which we have so little understanding and then try to trash compactor it until we make it small enough to fit under the extremely limited view of man's knowledge which could be radically different in 20 to 30 years from what it is now.

Edited June 12, 2013 by SamIam

[thesometimesaint]

I agree. BRM, in my opinion, sometimes took sound teaching and drew opinionated implications therefrom which might or might not be correct. We aren't dealing with the Spiritual Creation here. The number of days involved in the Physical Creation provides enough fodder for its own topic and someone should open it. Nor is it a very strong argument that the use of the word "renewed" or even the word "restored" necessarily means that the whole Earth had to have been originally Terrestrial which is in the same way inconsistent with the description of a specific location for a garden and the verbiage about being driven out. Plus the idea of death being suspended on the whole planet really does violence to the physical evidence.

Agreed. Eden was in the East of where A&E were created. At least according to Scripture.

[Closet Doubter]

I think that the advent of Adam and Eve were much earlier than six thousand years ago. I also think that Adam and Eve were not primitive beings climbing from the primordial ooze.

This is the great advantage of belonging to a church led by a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. We don't have to guess and wonder at things like this. We can look to the Prophet for guidance and learn from the Lord what the truth is and then know of a sureity what is the truth - - - or not.

[Stone holm]

I discussed this topic and the various comments in the thread with my Ultimate Earthly Authority today, and she seems to agree about a conclusion that i have come to. No matter how hard I try to keep the issue of evolution out of the discussion -- and it is not necessary to discuss whether Adam and Eve were descendants of cave men, in order to discuss who these hominids were and where they came from -- it becomes impossible to keep the evolution issue at bay, and the whole discussion gets characterized as an assault on religious belief. That suggests to me that there is a modern cultural issue in play here on both sides of the issue. If you are on the pro-Science side you immediately discount any discussion which involves considering Adam and Eve as historical specific individuals, which in my mind, outside the Temple expediencies which are clearly explained, is very difficult to deny. On the fundamentalist side you immediately discount any discussion which questioning a very simplistic view of creation as being something just short of blasphemous, even though various GAs from time to time have done just that. Are we bringing a bunch of cultural baggage to the table? And if so, what impact does that have on trying to puzzle out mysteries such as accounting for non-human hominid bones. Why is it considered putting a topic through a "trash compactor" in order to understand possibilities? Is there some religious imperative which requires us to take a position which maximizes the conflict between religious belief and science? Is it completely wrong to seek possible common ground, or at least to avoid deliberately throwing sand in the gears? Why do we have to put scientists and believers constantly in a confrontational mode? Is that a cultural defense mechanism of some kind?

[Stone holm]

This is the great advantage of belonging to a church led by a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. We don't have to guess and wonder at things like this. We can look to the Prophet for guidance and learn from the Lord what the truth is and then know of a sureity what is the truth - - - or not.

The great advantage of the Church is that we believe in modern prophet, seers and revelators, the great disadvantage of the Church is that we have believed in modern prophets, seers, and revelators for a fairly lengthy period of time now. It is the great conundrum.