Pre-Adamites?

[CV75]

In another thread, the idea is brought up (to me anyway): what does it take to be human, or the perfect human? I think it is a very fine point, taught by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young:

“There is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or in the world to come; I care not what the theories of men are. We have the testimony of God that will raise us up, and he has the power to do it. If anyone supposes that any part of our bodies, that is, the fundamental parts thereof, ever goes into another body, he is mistaken” (Joseph Smith, HC, 5:339).

“Man’s body may be buried in the ocean, it may be eaten by wild beasts, or it may be burned to ashes, they may be scattered to the four winds, yet the particles of which it is composed will not be incorporated into any form of vegetable or animal life, to become a component part of their structure…at the sound of the trumpet of God every particle of our physical structures necessary to make our tabernacles perfect will be assembled, to be rejoined with the spirit, every man in his order. Not one particle will be lost” (Brigham Young, in Elders’ Journal, 1 (1875) 153 in Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews: Gospel Scholars Series, 518-19).

I'm thinking the "fundamental principle" or "parts" govern "every particle of our physical structures necessary to make our tabernacles perfect." It thus posseses agency, and of course its ability to effectuate the perfection of a person's body, spirit and soul are not fully manifested until after the resurrection, and relates to how much glory the spirit can bring into the body (D&C 88:28). I'm also thinking the human body is ultimately comprised of the particles (elements) we are permitted to bring together as part of our eternal inheritance.

[thesometimesaint]

In another thread, the idea is brought up (to me anyway): what does it take to be human, or the perfect human? I think it is a very fine point, taught by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young:

“There is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or in the world to come; I care not what the theories of men are. We have the testimony of God that will raise us up, and he has the power to do it. If anyone supposes that any part of our bodies, that is, the fundamental parts thereof, ever goes into another body, he is mistaken” (Joseph Smith, HC, 5:339).

“Man’s body may be buried in the ocean, it may be eaten by wild beasts, or it may be burned to ashes, they may be scattered to the four winds, yet the particles of which it is composed will not be incorporated into any form of vegetable or animal life, to become a component part of their structure…at the sound of the trumpet of God every particle of our physical structures necessary to make our tabernacles perfect will be assembled, to be rejoined with the spirit, every man in his order. Not one particle will be lost” (Brigham Young, in Elders’ Journal, 1 (1875) 153 in Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews: Gospel Scholars Series, 518-19).

I'm thinking the "fundamental principle" or "parts" govern "every particle of our physical structures necessary to make our tabernacles perfect." It thus posseses agency, and of course its ability to effectuate the perfection of a person's body, spirit and soul are not fully manifested until after the resurrection, and relates to how much glory the spirit can bring into the body (D&C 88:28). I'm also thinking the human body is ultimately comprised of the particles (elements) we are permitted to bring together as part of our eternal inheritance.

I don't know what essential parts means. But every other of my parts have come from the plants and animals I have eaten.

[cinepro]

But if you were to include it, then I think you would clearly lean towards the notion that the Garden was a separate discrete location on the Earth and that you could walk out of the Garden and find yourself in a Telestial World.

So, you are theorizing a Telestial creation, with God creating a Telestial world with mortal animals and humanoids?

That leads to the logical question of why we even needed a "Fall" then. If God already had a Telestial world with Telestial animals and humanoids, then there was nothing to "Fall" into. He could have just started putting spirit bodies into the humanoids (just as He does now) and everything would have gotten going without the need a Transgression, a tree, and a temptation.

You can certainly theorize this, but it's not compatible with LDS doctrine on the subject.

4. A paradisical earth was created and immortal, paradisical bodies were prepared for Adam and Eve, the first of all of God’s spirit sons and daughters to come to this earth.

http://www.lds.org/m...-moses?lang=eng

The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Immortality and the possibility of eternal life were provided by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement were planned long before the actual work of the Creation began.

The Creation

Edited June 13, 2013 by cinepro

[CV75]

I don't know what essential parts means. But every other of my parts have come from the plants and animals I have eaten.

Yes, same here. Some people even have parts that are donated by other people (and even pigs and cows, in the case of heart valves and insulin), or that are synthetic or manipulated or incorporated genetically. So it has to be something very unique, fundamental and "untouchable" / "unusable" / "off limits" to any other life form; the rest of our body parts are "add-ons."

Plus, I think JS and BY are talking about the resurrection anyway, where no aspect of this fundamental part / particle would still get incorporated into another resurrected life form.

[cdowis]

So, you are theorizing a Telestial creation, with God creating a Telestial world with mortal animals and humanoids?

Yes. That was the first five days of creation.

That leads to the logical question of why we even needed a "Fall" then. If God already had a Telestial world with Telestial animals and humanoids, then there was nothing to "Fall" into. He could have just started putting spirit bodies into the humanoids (just as He does now) and everything would have gotten going without the need a Transgression, a tree, and a temptation.

The terrestial creation was part of the sixth day of creation, where Adam and Eve were created, and there was the (terrestrial) Garden of Eden. It was during this period that the Plan was introduced and implemented in stages. The Plan was not in effect prior to this creation day.

You can certainly theorize this, but it's not compatible with LDS doctrine on the subject.

Again, it is a working theory, and may even contradict our understanding of the scriptures. But we have already found new interpretations of scripture (e.g. BOM geography) based on physical facts and discoveries. We now have physical facts and discoveries which apparently contradict our interpretation of the creation. We have to tip-toe around Jacob's condemnation of polygamy.

Edited June 13, 2013 by cdowis

[SamIam]

I don't know what essential parts means. But every other of my parts have come from the plants and animals I have eaten.

Sometimes I see respones to a question that cause me anguish for the irreverant and undermining impact they have on others who may simply side with something which many sound rational in its way but is simply sophistry in reality. Some do not have an answer and so they fall back to a "science" priority for truth without even appealing to the effort to search out what has been said on the subject from a theological perspective. Then sadly after someone provides potential guidance they will still adamently defend a weaker opinion over better considerations.

To illustrate the rational consideration of this subject from a theological comparison to what some state in random replies and how it applies in the sense of a spiritually more exact, more significant, more correct, more prudent, more inspired, more elevating and powerful effort I provide this quote from Brigham Young.

"My position is, which I declare to the Latter-day Saints, it is beyond the power of man, without revelation from God, with all his science to know whether these particles that compose our bodies go into other creatures to form a component part of their bodies, or whether they merely pass into the already organized body to resuscitate it and contribute to its sustenance. I declare to the Latter-day Saints, and to all living upon the earth who have intelligence to understand that the particles that comprise the component parts of our bodies will never enter into other bodies to form the elements of their bodies, but these very identical particles that now compose our bodies will be resurrected and come together by the power of the trump of God and will re-unite and form the body—excepting the blood, which will not be necessary to our existence in an immortal state, and then be prepared to receive the spirit, preparatory to their exaltation."

Would not the particles that compose the body of our Savior, according to their intelligence, oppose the idea of becoming a part of any other body but His? Again: Would not the Saints, who are faithful in magnifying the Priesthood of the Son of God, object to the particles which now compose their bodies, and which they have sanctified through obedience to that Priesthood, entering into and forming parts of other bodies than their own-bodies which their spirits had not possessed and of which they knew nothing in this life?

Although some may think that the substances of which our bodies are composed are borrowed for our use during this mortal existence, it is not so, neither will they be thrown off at death, never to be restored; and though in the resurrection the bodies of the righteous will be raised immortal and free from all corruption, they will be none the less tangible or perceptible to the touch of those who are permitted to handle them. (The Resurrection-A Discourse by Brigham Young, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, at the General Conference, October 8th 1875)

Clarity that embraces the scientific and makes it meaningful for a theologically superior perspective. Thank you Brigham Young.

[mfbukowski]

Well this topic is pretty dogma oriented and Joseph Smith did emphasize the importance of getting a correct understanding of the nature of God.

Yes. That's because the sectarians get caught up in this Neoplatonic stuff which turns him into vague metaphysical essences which make no sense.

He has a body like ours, is glorified and infinitely above us, yet our father who cares about us.

THAT is the "nature" of God that everyone else gets wrong.

[mfbukowski]

My own reaction...

[mfbukowski]

Yes, heaven forbid one actually takes the time to listen to what others believe once one has reached that ultimate point of enlightenment...

I wonder if he holds the same disdain as you do for such things...why are you even here on this board?

+1 Edited June 13, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Stone holm]

So, you are theorizing a Telestial creation, with God creating a Telestial world with mortal animals and humanoids?

That leads to the logical question of why we even needed a "Fall" then. If God already had a Telestial world with Telestial animals and humanoids, then there was nothing to "Fall" into. He could have just started putting spirit bodies into the humanoids (just as He does now) and everything would have gotten going without the need a Transgression, a tree, and a temptation.

You can certainly theorize this, but it's not compatible with LDS doctrine on the subject.

Or Fall out of, as in being ejected from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world (Telestial World). Whether you have a Terrestrial Garden or a Terrestrial Planet, doesn't matter you still have Adam falling out of an unmortal status into mortality. I believe that we can assume that Heavenly Father or Christ are going to be creating Telestial worlds somewhere for the Telestial to go to. Bear in mind, that we fudge things a bit when we describe this world as a Telestial world -- a Terrestial Kingdom is still a kingdom of glory which is apparently better than the mortal world that we live in. So when I speculated about a Paradiasical Garden of Terrestial like status on a Telestial Planet, that wasn't really correct. The Garden is apparently some kind of special incubator where the original pair get sent to make the decision to leap into mortality on behalf of themselves and their descendants. This world is a temporary mortal world, not the more static type of world that a Telestial or Terrestrial Kinddom is like.

[Rivers]

They were not descendants of Adam but part of the fifth day of creation.

Does that help.

Are they ancestors of Adam?

[Rivers]

Duplicate

Edited June 14, 2013 by Rivers

[Stone holm]

Are they ancestors of Adam?

I think cdowis is saying they were neither ancestors or descendants of Adam but part of the animal creation.

[Ahab]

I believe we will always be progressing, but there is a point at which we do know about God.

John 17: 3

And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Which could be understood to mean we will be spending our eternal life that we might (have the possibility) of knowing them.

Right now I'd say I know some things about them, and since that's usually what we mean when we say we know someone, in a sense I can say I know them. But I don't know all about them right now, and considering how long they have lived and all they have done, it's pretty hard to imagine that I might someday know everything there is to know about them and all they have done.

I just might have the possibilty of knowing them that well eventually, though, if I can spend enough time communicating with them, but I think it would take quite a while, and not only would I be trying to learn all about what they have done but all that they're doing as eternity goes on and on. It's really something to think that it just might possibly happen, someday.

[Stone holm]

Which could be understood to mean we will be spending our eternal life that we might (have the possibility) of knowing them.

Right now I'd say I know some things about them, and since that's usually what we mean when we say we know someone, in a sense I can say I know them. But I don't know all about them right now, and considering how long they have lived and all they have done, it's pretty hard to imagine that I might someday know everything there is to know about them and all they have done.

I just might have the possibilty of knowing them that well eventually, though, if I can spend enough time communicating with them, but I think it would take quite a while, and not only would I be trying to learn all about what they have done but all that they're doing as eternity goes on and on. It's really something to think that it just might possibly happen, someday.

Well, yes and no. We will know more about God, but He is eternally progressing as well so that means He is changing and I suspect that we never quite catch up unless He goes on an extended holiday or something...

[cinepro]

Or Fall out of, as in being ejected from the Garden of Eden into the lone and dreary world (Telestial World). Whether you have a Terrestrial Garden or a Terrestrial Planet, doesn't matter you still have Adam falling out of an unmortal status into mortality.

Just so I'm clear, suppose Adam and Eve had never "Fallen". How would the world look different than it does today?

[Questing Beast]

I believe we will always be progressing, but there is a point at which we do know about God.

John 17: 3

And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

We already know about God. If what Mormonism asserts, we know GtF intimately. And we will have learned all we needed to know about him in mortality to add to that prior knowledge. But if GtF is not responsible for existence in the first place, then that Infinite Cause will never be known in total by finite beings, no matter how immortal....

[Stone holm]

Just so I'm clear, suppose Adam and Eve had never "Fallen". How would the world look different than it does today?

If Adam and Eve still had not eaten the fruit, then there are two options --

Global Garden of Eden -- the entire planet would be in some kind of paradaisical suspended time limbo, if we take some commentators on this thread as correct, I guess they along with all of the animals would have remained immortal and ate fruit and vegetables.

Garden of Eden as a Paradaisical Garden -- the Garden would still be in its unmortal state, and whatever was going on outside of the Garden would have continued to go on possibly being periodically eradicated, geology and paleontology show that the Earth went through several near complete extinction events, there was at least one before the dinosaur age, then the dinosaur age, there was a big mammal age, etc. etc. If the ancestors of the Neanderthal had been outside the garden, my guess is that the Neanderthal would be at the top of the pyramid. If as has been suggested all the hominids were created as part of the garden, then I guess then a pair or so of them would have been wandering around in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

The Global Garden of Eden to my mind is very difficult to square with what we know about the Earth -- not saying that science trumps religion, the fundamentalists might be right, but my money is on the Garden of Eden being just that a really big garden or valley.

[Stone holm]

We already know about God. If what Mormonism asserts, we know GtF intimately. And we will have learned all we needed to know about him in mortality to add to that prior knowledge. But if GtF is not responsible for existence in the first place, then that Infinite Cause will never be known in total by finite beings, no matter how immortal....

Well, I think that is the implication of Eliza Snow's hymn "Hie Unto Kolob.." except we are supposed to all get hand held Urim and Thummim and the Earth when Celestialized is suppose to become one gigantic Urim and Thummim, so supposedly we can see back through eternal history, so maybe we can eventually figure that stuff out. Or perhaps, we will be in the same place as Jodi Foster in "Contact" where the person who meets her just tells her he doesn't know who created the pathways because they are long gone.

[thesometimesaint]

We already know about God. If what Mormonism asserts, we know GtF intimately. And we will have learned all we needed to know about him in mortality to add to that prior knowledge. But if GtF is not responsible for existence in the first place, then that Infinite Cause will never be known in total by finite beings, no matter how immortal....

I know just a few things about God. I hope to know many more, before I can know God.

[cdowis]

Let me go on with my heretical theory. The five days of creation was the prelude to the sixth day -- some have suggested that there was a crudeness, unfinished element through these creation periods ("God saw that he was obeyed"). The sixth period was the finishing stage, where it all came together for Adam's benefit. It was at this stage that the Plan was implemented, while the previous days were prelude to that event.

The sixth day was an Event, unlike any of the previous days. The previous days were merely staging a staging for the sixth day. It was here, at this time, that the Garden of Eden, and the earth was transformed into a paradise.

I am probably mistaken, but it is an interesting concept. Others have hinted at this, but here it all is with the icing on top. It "fixes" alot of issues.

Edited June 14, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

Let me go on with my heretical theory. The five days of creation was the prelude to the sixth day -- some have suggested that there was a crudeness, unfinished element through these creation periods ("God saw that he was obeyed"). The sixth period was the finishing stage, where it all came together for Adam's benefit. It was at this stage that the Plan was implemented, while the previous days were prelude to that event.

The sixth day was an Event, unlike any of the previous days. The previous days were merely staging a staging for the sixth day. It was here, at this time, that the Garden of Eden, and the earth was transformed into a paradise.

I am probably mistaken, but it is an interesting concept. Others have hinted at this, but here it all is with the icing on top. It "fixes" alot of issues.

IIRC The Garden was eastward in Eden.

[cdowis]

IIRC The Garden was eastward in Eden.

Yep, there was a territory/land called Eden, and the Garden was there. It goes back to the question about Adam and Eve being cast out -- that there was some boundary between the Garden and..... some other place. They crossed that boundary.

It gets abit dicey. I'm still working on whether the gates of heaven swing open or slide open.

Edited June 14, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

Which ever way they open the opening is big enough to let all those whom want to to enter.

[cinepro]

If Adam and Eve still had not eaten the fruit, then there are two options --

Global Garden of Eden -- the entire planet would be in some kind of paradaisical suspended time limbo, if we take some commentators on this thread as correct, I guess they along with all of the animals would have remained immortal and ate fruit and vegetables.

Garden of Eden as a Paradaisical Garden -- the Garden would still be in its unmortal state, and whatever was going on outside of the Garden would have continued to go on possibly being periodically eradicated, geology and paleontology show that the Earth went through several near complete extinction events, there was at least one before the dinosaur age, then the dinosaur age, there was a big mammal age, etc. etc. If the ancestors of the Neanderthal had been outside the garden, my guess is that the Neanderthal would be at the top of the pyramid. If as has been suggested all the hominids were created as part of the garden, then I guess then a pair or so of them would have been wandering around in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

The Global Garden of Eden to my mind is very difficult to square with what we know about the Earth -- not saying that science trumps religion, the fundamentalists might be right, but my money is on the Garden of Eden being just that a really big garden or valley.

While the first option is obviously absurd from a scientific point of view, it is definitely the one taught by the Church.

The second option might sound more scientific, but it still begs the question of where we should see Adam and Eve interjected into the fossil record.

Not to mention that the Church still teaches that the Fall was about 6,000 years ago...

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/student-resources/ot/old-testament-times-at-a-glance-chart_eng.pdf

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/09/old-testament-chronology-chart?lang=eng