Flds Exodus From Short Creek

[Robert F. Smith]

“‘Fundamentalist’ Mormons Leaving Utah-Arizona Settlements,” Intelligence Report, #150 (Summer 2013), 11, online at http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2013/summer/-fundamentalist-mormons-leaving-utah-#.Ua-NCkCTj-Y .

[The Nehor]

Now do they wander in the desert for 40 years?

[Avatar4321]

An interesting development. I would hope that they would repent and come to the true fold.

[Calm]

I love how they just throw in the irrelevant to the topic "racist" as a descriptor.

[Scott Lloyd]

I love how they just throw in the irrelevant to the topic "racist" as a descriptor.

Hardly surprising, given that it's the Southern Poverty Law Center (a civil rights self-interest group) that published the piece on its own website and not a typical news media outlet.

The SPLC has the FLDS Church on its list of hate groups, hence its particular interest in monitoring and reporting on the FLDS Church.

[Stone holm]

I can't help feel a little sorry for this persecuted group, probably unwarranted, but it just looks like a group trying to find a place to be left alone. They are probably doing some things which are morally reprehensible, but it really is hard to sort out how much is truth and how much sensationalist reporting. The one woman was hawking her exposé book just somehow didn't come off as being very convincing. And the way that raid was conducted had a terrible aroma.

[EllenMaksoud]

I can't help feel a little sorry for this persecuted group, probably unwarranted, but it just looks like a group trying to find a place to be left alone. They are probably doing some things which are morally reprehensible, but it really is hard to sort out how much is truth and how much sensationalist reporting. The one woman was hawking her exposé book just somehow didn't come off as being very convincing. And the way that raid was conducted had a terrible aroma.

I am not sure why they would call them racist unless they are just looking for some more lurid language. I actually don't believe that Polygamy would have really come out as an issue had he not wed very young girls. That makes him a pedophile to me. I think that if they had regulated family size, and kept it so no one got hurt, it would have passed unnoticed.

Muslims practice polygamy in the US, and no one says a word.

[Tacenda]

I am not sure why they would call them racist unless they are just looking for some more lurid language. I actually don't believe that Polygamy would have really come out as an issue had he not wed very young girls. That makes him a pedophile to me. I think that if they had regulated family size, and kept it so no one got hurt, it would have passed unnoticed.

Muslims practice polygamy in the US, and no one says a word.

Ellen, how young is too young in your opinion?

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen, how young is too young in your opinion?

They could choose to obey civil law, just sayin. 18 years old is generally young enough. I was married at 16 and that is far too young. The age difference is important too. Generally I think a maximum of 20 years is the absolute maximum. I'd prefer 10 years. And NO I do not think ANY religious authority has the right to offset that.

I just read and found out that New Hampshire is age 13. Perhaps a hold over from colonial times?

[Garden Girl]

I can't help feel a little sorry for this persecuted group, probably unwarranted, but it just looks like a group trying to find a place to be left alone. They are probably doing some things which are morally reprehensible, but it really is hard to sort out how much is truth and how much sensationalist reporting.

Ya think??

I watched a program this morning, part of the "Our America" series on OWN tv by a really good investigative reporter I've seen before (I think her name is Lisa Ling), which focused on some young people (and a few adults) who have recently escaped the Colorado City FLDS... they literally had to "escape," particularly the young girls... the young boys were kicked out of CC as mid- to late teens who literally had to fend for themselves. Several have joined up to find jobs and share apartments.

A mother of one of the girls finally gathered up the rest of her children and escaped (one a 14 year old daughter who was set to be married off to an older man).

The boys and girls interviewed are now in school or working, and amazed at all they didn't know about the outside world generally, and various specific subjects like math, science, history, etc... the smaller children learning to play games for the first time, like softball...

The reporter does not try to sensationalize her stories. Rather, she objectively gathers and reports facts as she interviews people...

GG

[Robert F. Smith]

I am not sure why they would call them racist unless they are just looking for some more lurid language. I actually don't believe that Polygamy would have really come out as an issue had he not wed very young girls. That makes him a pedophile to me. I think that if they had regulated family size, and kept it so no one got hurt, it would have passed unnoticed.

Muslims practice polygamy in the US, and no one says a word.

Muslims? What evidence do you have of that?

Several years ago, the Attorney General of Utah sat down with some polygamist leaders and they reached an agreement that there would be no more early teen marriages. Unfortunately, the FLDS did not deign to comply with that new norm. Warren Jeffs chose to establish a dictatorial regime and to punish any who challenged him -- quite aside from his pedophilia. Most polygamist groups are voluntary.

[EllenMaksoud]

Muslims? What evidence do you have of that?

Several years ago, the Attorney General of Utah sat down with some polygamist leaders and they reached an agreement that there would be no more early teen marriages. Unfortunately, the FLDS did not deign to comply with that new norm. Warren Jeffs chose to establish a dictatorial regime and to punish any who challenged him -- quite aside from his pedophilia. Most polygamist groups are voluntary.

http://theislamawareness.blogspot.com/2013/04/what-kind-of-woman-is-willing-to-share.html

When I was Muslim, I heard of it fairly regularly. Keep in mind that normally Muslim weddings are done by the Imam in his office; no dresses, brides maids, best men, music (It is Haraam), and not done through the government at all. So, they pretty much do as they wish. However, I have not met any woman who wanted it to happen. It was shoved down her throat.

[BlueDreams]

I am not sure why they would call them racist unless they are just looking for some more lurid language.

It's probably tied to the fact that they wrote a piece a few years back about them that highlighted their racist teachings among other things and for the fact that they list them as a hate group.

I can't help feel a little sorry for this persecuted group, probably unwarranted, but it just looks like a group trying to find a place to be left alone. They are probably doing some things which are morally reprehensible, but it really is hard to sort out how much is truth and how much sensationalist reporting. The one woman was hawking her exposé book just somehow didn't come off as being very convincing. And the way that raid was conducted had a terrible aroma.

Yes, the raid was seriously poorly handled....and the book that I think your talking about sounds a little excessive. I tend to believe people's stories until proven otherwise, but some of her accounts (what I've heard of them, at least) sound like more of the problem of being in a dysfunction family than a dysfunctional religious. I'm usually skeptical....but it's the many many many other reports that are leaking out or coming out, especially lately, that's leading to more and more skepticism. They're a group that wants to be left alone, but they're also a group that is doing things that are morally questionable at best as well. Doing such lends credence to the fact that they probably shouldn't be left entirely to their desires.

With luv,

BD

[thesometimesaint]

Personally as long as it is between consenting adults(over 18 years old), as long as I don't have to pay for it. I don't give a rats behind how many wives, or husbands someone has.

[Stone holm]

Personally as long as it is between consenting adults(over 18 years old), as long as I don't have to pay for it. I don't give a rats behind how many wives, or husbands someone has.

I tend to agree with this philosophy. I wonder to what extent the problem with some polygamist communities is the fact that they have to be somewhat covert because of the legal and social pressure. I wonder if otherwise some of the misbehaviour with minors, welfare fraud, and overreaching leadership might wane. I guess I was just shocked with the way the raid was handled and the way the one "escapee" was blatantly hawking her book. The way the raid was handled was just unseemly.

[rpn]

I think the SLC discussion is old news and doesn't fairly discuss what we know. In the last few months it has been reported that FLDS has excommunicated many families, perhaps so many that it no longer has the power to control the communities and physically drive out people who disagree in Short Creek. Further, the governments of those towns have been accused of misconduct, including significant surveillance of all areas of the town, except that of homes for Warren Jeff's family.

A second church has gotten bigger, though not without fear and repercussion, and the leader of that faction, who won a huge settlement against flds and warren jeffs, just got the warren jeffs compound at auction, in partial judgment.

All of the places identified in the SLC report already had congregations of flds. So it isn't like new areas are being settled.

Yes it is a hard time for those who've been kicked out and those who have been required to do extraordinary things to "prove" their continuing fealty to Jeffs. And of course there is physical disruption because of that. But it could also be groups deciding they need to go someone further away from the easy access to Jeff's orders.

[ERayR]

I can't help feel a little sorry for this persecuted group, probably unwarranted, but it just looks like a group trying to find a place to be left alone. They are probably doing some things which are morally reprehensible, but it really is hard to sort out how much is truth and how much sensationalist reporting. The one woman was hawking her exposé book just somehow didn't come off as being very convincing. And the way that raid was conducted had a terrible aroma.

When the Baptist buses came rolling up behind the police cars it took on a whole new aura.

[ERayR]

I think the SLC discussion is old news and doesn't fairly discuss what we know. In the last few months it has been reported that FLDS has excommunicated many families, perhaps so many that it no longer has the power to control the communities and physically drive out people who disagree in Short Creek. Further, the governments of those towns have been accused of misconduct, including significant surveillance of all areas of the town, except that of homes for Warren Jeff's family.

A second church has gotten bigger, though not without fear and repercussion, and the leader of that faction, who won a huge settlement against flds and warren jeffs, just got the warren jeffs compound at auction, in partial judgment.

All of the places identified in the SLC report already had congregations of flds. So it isn't like new areas are being settled.

Yes it is a hard time for those who've been kicked out and those who have been required to do extraordinary things to "prove" their continuing fealty to Jeffs. And of course there is physical disruption because of that. But it could also be groups deciding they need to go someone further away from the easy access to Jeff's orders.

Is this substantiated or is it just more rumor?

[thesometimesaint]

I tend to agree with this philosophy. I wonder to what extent the problem with some polygamist communities is the fact that they have to be somewhat covert because of the legal and social pressure. I wonder if otherwise some of the misbehaviour with minors, welfare fraud, and overreaching leadership might wane. I guess I was just shocked with the way the raid was handled and the way the one "escapee" was blatantly hawking her book. The way the raid was handled was just unseemly.

Of course anytime it involves minors or innocent third parties(welfare fraud) then the State has vested interest in curtailing such misbehavior's. I don't know what you mean by "overreaching leadership" perhaps you could elaborate. She hasn't/won't make any money off of me for her book. We need to be very careful when we interfere with anyone's religious practices to make sure that we really are protecting the innocent, and prosecuting the guilty, for crimes and not just beliefs. However strange we may personally believe they are.

[Garden Girl]

Personally as long as it is between consenting adults(over 18 years old), as long as I don't have to pay for it. I don't give a rats behind how many wives, or husbands someone has.

Hello TSS...

The trouble is... a good many if not most of these girls being given in marriage are under 18... many 14 - 16 and married off to older men (meaning in their 40's, which isn't that old except in the context of taking young girls as brides... yet some men are in 50's and 60's). That, and the oppressive nature of their lifestyle... plus the kicking out of boys in their teens... puts a little different aspect to it than just "consenting adults." How many of the young girls really consent personally to marrying an older man... or are simply obeying whatever adult is responsible for them. How many are really thrilled about marrying a man 40 - 60 years old?

The special that Lisa Ling did on polygamy centered on the Colorado City group, and they were still marrying under 18 girls to older men.

GG

[Scott Lloyd]

It's probably tied to the fact that they wrote a piece a few years back about them that highlighted their racist teachings among other things and for the fact that they list them as a hate group.

This is undoubtedly the case. But it goes beyond that. The SPLC is also fixated on "homophobia," and Jeffs and his group are pretty harsh in their condemnation of homosexuality.

[Stone holm]

When the Baptist buses came rolling up behind the police cars it took on a whole new aura.

Yeah that was one of the things that really turned me off. Plus, what they did, as I understand it, was they separated the mothers from their children and interrogated both -- and I have witnessed interrogations like that which would have involved a lot of pressure on the kids to rat out their parents, and lots of pressure on the mothers to give testimony with the veiled threat that if they didn't cooperate their kids would be taken away from them and put in foster homes -- which would have looked pretty sinister given they were loaded up on buses belonging to hostile religious organizations. I suspect there were some serious screw ups in the interrogations given the speed with which the Courts restored the kids to the mothers. There was a raid in Vermont on a commune where the kids were raised more or less communally -- when the dust settled on that botched endeavor the State wound up having to give a formal apology and I think possibly pay damages. The stigma against groups raising children in anything other than the traditional nuclear family manner is pretty strong and it can result in some really not savvy thinking when it comes to civil liberties. I suspect in this case there were good reasons for a limited raid, it is just doubtfull that there were good reasons for in essence detaining the entire community and separating children from their families. Sometimes people in authority get carried away when they disagree about how kids are being raised.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yeah that was one of the things that really turned me off. Plus, what they did, as I understand it, was they separated the mothers from their children and interrogated both -- and I have witnessed interrogations like that which would have involved a lot of pressure on the kids to rat out their parents, and lots of pressure on the mothers to give testimony with the veiled threat that if they didn't cooperate their kids would be taken away from them and put in foster homes -- which would have looked pretty sinister given they were loaded up on buses belonging to hostile religious organizations. I suspect there were some serious screw ups in the interrogations given the speed with which the Courts restored the kids to the mothers. There was a raid in Vermont on a commune where the kids were raised more or less communally -- when the dust settled on that botched endeavor the State wound up having to give a formal apology and I think possibly pay damages. The stigma against groups raising children in anything other than the traditional nuclear family manner is pretty strong and it can result in some really not savvy thinking when it comes to civil liberties. I suspect in this case there were good reasons for a limited raid, it is just doubtfull that there were good reasons for in essence detaining the entire community and separating children from their families. Sometimes people in authority get carried away when they disagree about how kids are being raised.

I pretty much agree with this.

I have no great love for the FLDS Church, but the disregard for civil liberties shown by the authorities in Texas was quite alarming to me.

[Stone holm]

I pretty much agree with this.

I have no great love for the FLDS Church, but the disregard for civil liberties shown by the authorities in Texas was quite alarming to me.

I don't know enough about the FLDS Church to judge, have never lived anywhere near any active polygamist groups. I just have a tendency to defend groups that appear to be under attack, and have never had much use for ex-whatevers who got out and try to make money selling expose of their former faith. I guess if the saying, "They can leave the Church, but they can't leave the Church alone" shouldn't just apply to views of people who leave our Church.

[rpn]

Well, I've read multiple accounts in mainline press, but that doesn't guarantee reliability, I suppose.