Flds Exodus From Short Creek

[blackstrap]

First of all,there are few if any wards/stakes with their own buses. I suppose we could organize a convoy of RVs.

[BlueDreams]

The Baptist Church could have politely declined to participate. I am sure the authorities could have rounded up enough buses that were government owned(school districts). Somebody in an influential position in the Baptist Church was involved.

FLDS were not all that new to town but probably did not mingle in the community.

They did use government vehicles as well. The first pic I looked up has a school bus front and center. Though I view this a largely botched and poor execution of any form of laws, I just don't think the baptist bus is a fair criticism. They wouldn't have any real reason for law enforcement not to use their vehicles...especially for a case that looked like there were concerns of sexual/child abuse (however contrived the claims were at first...though according to wikipedia, there were a number actually prosecuted and sentenced. Which I didn't know). The place is very isolated....I've been pretty close to it (my grandma lives in junction, 1.5 hrs away from it....where that is, that's close. The closest "big" town (with about 90k people) is still over an hour away....The town, eldorado...still 20 minutes away from it, has around 1600 residents. They used what was convenient.

And the place had been purcased by the FLDS all of 5 years prior....in that area, that's very new indeed.

With luv,

BD

[EllenMaksoud]

I have talked with Mormons from St George and they say that people from the FLDS were fairly frequent visitors to the stores there.

[ERayR]

They did use government vehicles as well. The first pic I looked up has a school bus front and center. Though I view this a largely botched and poor execution of any form of laws, I just don't think the baptist bus is a fair criticism. They wouldn't have any real reason for law enforcement not to use their vehicles...especially for a case that looked like there were concerns of sexual/child abuse (however contrived the claims were at first...though according to wikipedia, there were a number actually prosecuted and sentenced. Which I didn't know). The place is very isolated....I've been pretty close to it (my grandma lives in junction, 1.5 hrs away from it....where that is, that's close. The closest "big" town (with about 90k people) is still over an hour away....The town, eldorado...still 20 minutes away from it, has around 1600 residents. They used what was convenient.

And the place had been purcased by the FLDS all of 5 years prior....in that area, that's very new indeed.

With luv,

BD

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/04/texas.ranch/#cnnSTCVideo

I could not find any pictures of school buses but I do remember a picture of a typical school bus but it too was a Baptist bus.

[BlueDreams]

dup

[BlueDreams]

http://www.cnn.com/2...ch/#cnnSTCVideo

I could not find any pictures of school buses but I do remember a picture of a typical school bus but it too was a Baptist bus.

I'll take your word for it then...I can't read the side of the bus and I can't find another pic. But the story right after the one you mentioned is fairly what I'd expect from a small town in TX (under polygamist ranch raid. They had reached a balance, but it wasn't exactly a warm embrace. The people did not mix and the way they set themselves (with gaurds, a tower, security, locked gates, and minimal contact with the outside community, etc) would lead just about any community into suspicion and fears about their new neighbors.

It's not like I'm super fond of baptists in TX to begin with. I did not have the best of experiences with them as a teen. I'm aware that even with mainstream mormons they're not known for their accuracy or, frankly, charity towards us. But simply using buses from a local church is not enough. It wasn't all that news worthy, because, knowing TX, it's not that strange. Especially considering where they're at in TX (middle of nowhere).

I have talked with Mormons from St George and they say that people from the FLDS were fairly frequent visitors to the stores there.

Wouldn't surprise me. I remember an account of people in the town mentioning something like that. But from what I remember, and what I'd expect considering, they largely stayed away and minimized association with anyone from the outside. But that's still overall fairly isolated.

With luv,

BD

[EllenMaksoud]

I'll take your word for it then...I can't read the side of the bus and I can't find another pic. But the story right after the one you mentioned is fairly what I'd expect from a small town in TX (under polygamist ranch raid. They had reached a balance, but it wasn't exactly a warm embrace. The people did not mix and the way they set themselves (with gaurds, a tower, security, locked gates, and minimal contact with the outside community, etc) would lead just about any community into suspicion and fears about their new neighbors.

It's not like I'm super fond of baptists in TX to begin with. I did not have the best of experiences with them as a teen. I'm aware that even with mainstream mormons they're not known for their accuracy or, frankly, charity towards us. But simply using buses from a local church is not enough. It wasn't all that news worthy, because, knowing TX, it's not that strange. Especially considering where they're at in TX (middle of nowhere).

Wouldn't surprise me. I remember an account of people in the town mentioning something like that. But from what I remember, and what I'd expect considering, they largely stayed away and minimized association with anyone from the outside. But that's still overall fairly isolated.

With luv,

BD

I have absolute sympathy for the women and children. The men, I would put a tracking collar on them and require them to report weekly to monitor their activities. There would be no marriages with a more than 20 Year spread, and there would be no kicking the boys out. Part of this I can understand as I was once in such a bad place that I would have done it just so I would not be alone.

[Stone holm]

I have absolute sympathy for the women and children. The men, I would put a tracking collar on them and require them to report weekly to monitor their activities. There would be no marriages with a more than 20 Year spread, and there would be no kicking the boys out. Part of this I can understand as I was once in such a bad place that I would have done it just so I would not be alone.

Yeah, what I found repugnant was the way they herded up the women and children. Really the sole reason for that appears to have been to intimidate those two groups into ratting on the men, and I am about 90% certain they used very lightly veiled threats of loss of their children on the women in order to put together a bigger case. I can see no legitimate reason for detaining the women and children and no charges had been filed against them.

[EllenMaksoud]

Yeah, what I found repugnant was the way they herded up the women and children. Really the sole reason for that appears to have been to intimidate those two groups into ratting on the men, and I am about 90% certain they used very lightly veiled threats of loss of their children on the women in order to put together a bigger case. I can see no legitimate reason for detaining the women and children and no charges had been filed against them.

Well, I have no big love for CSD people. They put me in a very bad place when I tried to escape the abuse and ********. Back in the early 60's they could do that with out getting sued.

[Stone holm]

Well, I have no big love for CSD people. They put me in a very bad place when I tried to escape the abuse and ********. Back in the early 60's they could do that with out getting sued.

"CSD" is that Child Services Department? If so I would agree.

[ERayR]

I'll take your word for it then...I can't read the side of the bus and I can't find another pic.

With luv,

BD

I am just going from memory but somewhere in my memory is that big yellow bus with Baptist written on the side. Seems much harder to find pictures now than at the onset of this fiasco.

[Stone holm]

I am just going from memory but somewhere in my memory is that big yellow bus with Baptist written on the side. Seems much harder to find pictures now than at the onset of this fiasco.

There may have been school buses, but I distinctly remember the church buses and there were a lot of them, and as I recall there was more line crossings than just transportation which made the whole operation smell.

[ERayR]

There may have been school buses, but I distinctly remember the church buses and there were a lot of them, and as I recall there was more line crossings than just transportation which made the whole operation smell.

As I am now near ancient status my memory might be suspect but I have a memory of the side of a big yellow buss that said xxx Baptist xxx School.

[Tacenda]

As I am now near ancient status my memory might be suspect but I have a memory of the side of a big yellow buss that said xxx Baptist xxx School.

Despite it all being handled so poorly, I'm grateful to the girl that made the false report. And it getting the ball rolling. Who knows, Warren Jeffs could be out of prison by now.

[ERayR]

Despite it all being handled so poorly, I'm grateful to the girl that made the false report. And it getting the ball rolling. Who knows, Warren Jeffs could be out of prison by now.

Grateful for a demonstration of how to shred civil liberties over a lie? With just a little investigation they could have found the lie. They could then have gotten to any real problem on an individual basis without shredding the constitution and traumatizing almost 200 kids.

[Stone holm]

Grateful for a demonstration of how to shred civil liberties over a lie? With just a little investigation they could have found the lie. They could then have gotten to any real problem on an individual basis without shredding the constitution and traumatizing almost 200 kids.

Agreed!

[Tacenda]

Grateful for a demonstration of how to shred civil liberties over a lie? With just a little investigation they could have found the lie. They could then have gotten to any real problem on an individual basis without shredding the constitution and traumatizing almost 200 kids.

True, but those kids are being abused as we speak. Something needs to be done now. We all sit by and watch. Girls are still being abused and the children are sheltered from the outside world in the most extreme way. The FLDS in Utah and Colorado atleast aren't on a compound where it's harder to escape. I think there are crimes being done on innocent children and you're worried about civil liberties. Shame on you people. Check it out, watch their interview with Oprah Winfrey when she went to TX. I'm on my phone so unable to link. Those children are growing up to continue the propagation with no hope of a life out outside compound. This happening on US soil? They're imprisoned, and you are worried about some Baptist group? Where were the mormons? Where are the mormons now, in Utah? Is anyone listening?

[Stone holm]

True, but those kids are being abused as we speak. Something needs to be done now. We all sit by and watch. Girls are still being abused and the children are sheltered from the outside world in the most extreme way. The FLDS in Utah and Colorado atleast aren't on a compound where it's harder to escape. I think there are crimes being done on innocent children and you're worried about civil liberties. Shame on you people. Check it out, watch their interview with Oprah Winfrey when she went to TX. I'm on my phone so unable to link. Those children are growing up to continue the propagation with no hope of a life out outside compound. This happening on US soil? They're imprisoned, and you are worried about some Baptist group? Where were the mormons? Where are the mormons now, in Utah? Is anyone listening?

One of the greatest motivators for do gooders and those who would destroy civil liberties, inter meddle with parental rights, and destroy lives is to assert child abuse once somebody claims that you turn a whirlwind loose that is hard to contain.

[BlueDreams]

There may have been school buses, but I distinctly remember the church buses and there were a lot of them, and as I recall there was more line crossings than just transportation which made the whole operation smell.

As I am now near ancient status my memory might be suspect but I have a memory of the side of a big yellow buss that said xxx Baptist xxx School.

I remember being glued to the tv/web during this (I'm big into anything strange on a social/psychological level). There was plenty that I found wrong about it, I simply don't remember this being one of those points.

[Stone holm]

I remember being glued to the tv/web during this (I'm big into anything strange on a social/psychological level). There was plenty that I found wrong about it, I simply don't remember this being one of those points.

I was trying to remember seemed like there were some other unseemly involvements of the local evangelicals, but its been too long ago for this ancient brain to bring them forth. Where were they initially detained and interrogated, and why was it necessary to bus anybody in the first place?

[Calm]

I was trying to remember seemed like there were some other unseemly involvements of the local evangelicals, but its been too long ago for this ancient brain to bring them forth. Where were they initially detained and interrogated, and why was it necessary to bus anybody in the first place?

It never made sense to me why they just didn't remove the men instead of the women and children (especially since it was the men accused of the abuse) unless they were hoping that once away from familiar surroundings the women would be more likely to want to leave for good.

[Stone holm]

It never made sense to me why they just didn't remove the men instead of the women and children (especially since it was the men accused of the abuse) unless they were hoping that once away from familiar surroundings the women would be more likely to want to leave for good.

Oh it makes perfect sense if you understand how these witch hunts work. You take the women and children offsite so they are intimidated, then you separate the women and the children and then you do a form of suggestive interrogation which to the women implies either you give us something to use against your husband or you will lose your children, and you work the children to implant in their minds that its a good thing to see who can come up with the wildest incriminating tale about your parents -- the latter works best if you have them in small therapy circles, etc. They worke this until they get enough down in the form of affidavits to nail somebody or as many people as possible.

[Calm]

I was trying to remember seemed like there were some other unseemly involvements of the local evangelicals, but its been too long ago for this ancient brain to bring them forth. Where were they initially detained and interrogated, and why was it necessary to bus anybody in the first place?

Possibly the Baptists Child and Family Services was placed in charge as well as possibly 4 other Baptist sponsored agencies. Supposedly the head of the Texas CPS was Baptist and possibly the main judge as well. (I've come across allegations but haven't looked up references yet)

[ERayR]

True, but those kids are being abused as we speak. Something needs to be done now. We all sit by and watch. Girls are still being abused and the children are sheltered from the outside world in the most extreme way. The FLDS in Utah and Colorado atleast aren't on a compound where it's harder to escape. I think there are crimes being done on innocent children and you're worried about civil liberties. Shame on you people. Check it out, watch their interview with Oprah Winfrey when she went to TX. I'm on my phone so unable to link. Those children are growing up to continue the propagation with no hope of a life out outside compound. This happening on US soil? They're imprisoned, and you are worried about some Baptist group? Where were the mormons? Where are the mormons now, in Utah? Is anyone listening?

CFR. I'm sorry Oprah's veracity is not above reproach. After the whole fiasco was done they found (I think it was) two cases of abuse. Imprisoned, come now, A bit melodramatic. Much hyperbole.

Is it such a bad thing to be sheltered from the outside world just a tad? Again CFR that the girls are being abused. When offered the chance to leave after the raid while being held hostage the older children were offered a chance to leave and they refused. Again all of these hysteric charges were claims made to justify the raid but were sadly lacking in evidence.

Would it be okay with you if your children and grandchildren were seized because they were being prepared to be introduced to those secret temple rituals. After all we know where they come from. Right?

[Stone holm]

CFR. I'm sorry Oprah's veracity is not above reproach. After the whole fiasco was done they found (I think it was) two cases of abuse. Imprisoned, come now, A bit melodramatic. Much hyperbole.

Is it such a bad thing to be sheltered from the outside world just a tad? Again CFR that the girls are being abused. When offered the chance to leave after the raid while being held hostage the older children were offered a chance to leave and they refused. Again all of these hysteric charges were claims made to justify the raid but were sadly lacking in evidence.

Would it be okay with you if your children and grandchildren were seized because they were being prepared to be introduced to those secret temple rituals. After all we know where they come from. Right?

There was also the gal they trotted out in all the talk shows, who just happened to have written an exposé book which always seemed to get mentioned.