Flds Exodus From Short Creek

[Stone holm]

There is a proper protocol for handling these problems that does not trample civil rights. Do I think there were/are problems within the FLDS community? Yes. I also think there is problems within the LDS (Mormon) community and within the Baptist community and within any community you want to name. The problem is that when we allow the civil rights of anyone in any of these communities to be violated(no matter how good intentioned we are) we also destroy the civil liberties of every individual in every one of these communities, including our own. The next time they may be coming for your children and grandchildren because of someones well intentioned concern. There are legitimate ways to solve these problems without destroying the constitution.

Texas and the Baptists stepped beyond these bounds.

Agreed.

[Tacenda]

For those that don't want to trample on freedom of religion, do you look the other way when there is abuse in the cult? I watched a program with two women that escaped the Kingston group from Bountiful, Utah. Both girls were sexually and physically abused since 5 yrs. They finally escaped in their later teens. They described being hungry all the time. In fact one spoke of begging their mom to go by a pick up the food that farmers threw out to the pigs. Their mothers would make nice big meals when their father visited. And the rest of the time they'd get nothing. Oats was like candy to them. These groups are so tight knit that abused women/children aren't seen. Maybe one day, people will break stride with freedom of religion long enough to give freedom of life, liberty and love also.

[thesometimesaint]

If someone is violating the law, and criminal neglect is criminal, then prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. But Congress(any governmental body) can make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The second that you break with the freedom of religion. You invite the very problems you are trying to avoid.

[ERayR]

For those that don't want to trample on freedom of religion, do you look the other way when there is abuse in the cult? I watched a program with two women that escaped the Kingston group from Bountiful, Utah. Both girls were sexually and physically abused since 5 yrs. They finally escaped in their later teens. They described being hungry all the time. In fact one spoke of begging their mom to go by a pick up the food that farmers threw out to the pigs. Their mothers would make nice big meals when their father visited. And the rest of the time they'd get nothing. Oats was like candy to them. These groups are so tight knit that abused women/children aren't seen. Maybe one day, people will break stride with freedom of religion long enough to that freedom of life, liberty and love are good too.

Tacenda the answer is NO and h*** No. The problem with the FLDS fiasco was civil rights were violated. Not just freedom of religion but illegal search and seizure and other illegal procedures. If no civil rights had been violated I would support any legal action. The Baptist involvement is another troubling aspect.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda the answer is NO and h*** No. The problem with the FLDS fiasco was civil rights were violated. Not just freedom of religion but illegal search and seizure and other illegal procedures. If no civil rights had been violated I would support any legal action. The Baptist involvement is another troubling aspect.

Then why is nothing being done ERayR? I know why, because they would have to take several children out of these homes until CFS got it straightened out. And then they would get a public backlash and the cycle continues. These women stated that their mothers abused probably because they were abused and taught a certain way to discipline. One girl saw a baby thrown against a wall. When you have moms watching the other sister wives 20 kids because they're at work all day, stress mounts and soon they're losing it. Also young children babysitting siblings. I guess we just let it be, to hard to watch justice being served and children taken out of abusive homes. The one gal said when she ran from her father she ran into a gas station and that changed her life, she had run away before several times but would be picked up by police and brought back home, but by this gas station clerk calling the police, finally they realized she needed protection. They put her in a youth detention center until she was able to get out on her own. But they did nothing to the parents. When are children going to matter more than adults? When are they going to get rights? I've studied this for many years, if I could take in these lost kids I would in a heart beat. But my husband won't do it.

ETA: To answer Cal below, I have written to the Deseret News to an anchorman that has taken a special interest in the FLDS. And I've called the hotline and spoken with a represtentative that was just about to meet with Mark Shurtleff on a matter, this was a while back. I've also spoken to others on websites. But I better put my time where my mouth is and do some letter writing, thanks for the kick in the pants Cal.

[Calm]

For those that don't want to trample on freedom of religion, do you look the other way when there is abuse in the cult?

Why would you make that assumption? One can surely be for freedom of practice of religion while against abuse. They are not two contradictory things. The point is to respond within the laws on both cases so something can ultimately be done.

And I believe the FLDS raid demonstrated quite well what happens when you overreact in both cases.

[Calm]

And then they would get a public backlash

They got a public backlash because they went about it the wrong way, ended up with huge bad PR and a large debt over it and now are gunshy.

This is why it is so important to do it the right way with care, reason and within the law and not just go with one's gut and emotion.

[Calm]

When are children going to matter more than adults? When are they going to get rights?

If you are concerned about the laws for children, then the thing to do is to go to work to get them changed. Write your various government reps, get involved in your local government, etc.

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

Old Anti-Mormon literature was replete with tall tales about polygamy. Including a story about a woman jumping out of a window in the Salt Lake Temple into the Great Salt Lake. All I can say is I want her on the US Olympic long jump team.

[ERayR]

Then why is nothing being done ERayR? I know why, because they would have to take several children out of these homes until CFS got it straightened out. And then they would get a public backlash and the cycle continues. These women stated that their mothers abused probably because they were abused and taught a certain way to discipline. One girl saw a baby thrown against a wall. When you have moms watching the other sister wives 20 kids because they're at work all day, stress mounts and soon they're losing it. Also young children babysitting siblings. I guess we just let it be, to hard to watch justice being served and children taken out of abusive homes. The one gal said when she ran from her father she ran into a gas station and that changed her life, she had run away before several times but would be picked up by police and brought back home, but by this gas station clerk calling the police, finally they realized she needed protection. They put her in a youth detention center until she was able to get out on her own. But they did nothing to the parents. When are children going to matter more than adults? When are they going to get rights? I've studied this for many years, if I could take in these lost kids I would in a heart beat. But my husband won't do it.

ETA: To answer Cal below, I have written to the Deseret News to an anchorman that has taken a special interest in the FLDS. And I've called the hotline and spoken with a represtentative that was just about to meet with Mark Shurtleff on a matter, this was a while back. I've also spoken to others on websites. But I better put my time where my mouth is and do some letter writing, thanks for the kick in the pants Cal.

I don't know why nothing is being done if that is indeed the case and you are just guessing at the reason. Maybe law enforcement needs to get off their . . . , Maybe they are working on building a case and maybe their resources are overwhelmed with with other crime including other child abuse. I am not the least bit opposed to taking children out of a dangerous environment as long as it is done legally.

How young are the children babysitting siblings? Having raised a dozen kids and observing acquaintances raising their families I can assure you it is not uncommon for the older siblings to babysit the younger ones so if were going to criminalize that then be ready for half your ward to loose their kids.

Scenes such as you describe are not unique to polygamous families. Unfortunately it happens all too often in monogamous families and is much more prevalent when mom is shacking up with boyfriend. Instead of letting your distaste for polygamy limit you do what you can for the rest of the abused kids where ever they are.

[Stone holm]

I don't know why nothing is being done if that is indeed the case and you are just guessing at the reason. Maybe law enforcement needs to get off their . . . , Maybe they are working on building a case and maybe their resources are overwhelmed with with other crime including other child abuse. I am not the least bit opposed to taking children out of a dangerous environment as long as it is done legally.

How young are the children babysitting siblings? Having raised a dozen kids and observing acquaintances raising their families I can assure you it is not uncommon for the older siblings to babysit the younger ones so if were going to criminalize that then be ready for half your ward to loose their kids.

Scenes such as you describe are not unique to polygamous families. Unfortunately it happens all too often in monogamous families and is much more prevalent when mom is shacking up with boyfriend. Instead of letting your distaste for polygamy limit you do what you can for the rest of the abused kids where ever they are.

Am I missing something here? What is wrong with the babysitting arrangements?

[ERayR]

Am I missing something here? What is wrong with the babysitting arrangements?

Read Tacenda's post # 105

[Calm]

ETA: To answer Cal below, I have written to the Deseret News to an anchorman that has taken a special interest in the FLDS. And I've called the hotline and spoken with a represtentative that was just about to meet with Mark Shurtleff on a matter, this was a while back. I've also spoken to others on websites. But I better put my time where my mouth is and do some letter writing, thanks for the kick in the pants Cal.

Bravo, Tacenda. When people are willing to put effort into something, that shows they really care instead of just like standing in judgment of others.

[Calm]

How young are the children babysitting siblings? Having raised a dozen kids and observing acquaintances raising their families I can assure you it is not uncommon for the older siblings to babysit the younger ones so if were going to criminalize that then be ready for half your ward to loose their kids.

My 7 year old grandson and 4 year old granddaughter are quite proud of their babysitting skills of their younger sibling, who is 1 1/4 years. Of course, they are not left alone with her, but they really do help Mom and Grandma in caring for her. She adores them and they entertain her well.

[Tacenda]

Cal, in the interview one of the women said at 6 yrs. old she was making egg on toast for breakfast. So they do start young in caring for siblings. Not that a 6 yr. can't cook, I remember cooking mini pancakes at 5 yrs. but had my mom nearby. I'll just provide sources as we go along if I'm allowed for anyone that wants to speak out about getting them help. I know they also mention that a writer for the Davis County Clipper, a local paper in the Bountiful area, mentioned how they aren't the only ones that have abuse in their families. But these two women thought it funny, better to laugh then cry, because apparently it's rampant in these groups. In fact she mentioned that she asked several young women in the group about their first sexual encounters and all but one of them said they were raped. This isn't the norm. So hopefully I'll do a better job at writing and help get the authorites to do a better job. When a girl runs away over and over again, that should clue them in. But there is the issue that the girls are afraid to tell on the perpetrater for fear they'll get a beating. They also mention how now that they are on the outside it's hard to adjust. Usually in their old world they would have to be on guard with older men, even their uncles were suspect, because they might be their husbands one day. So on the outside they are nervous around older men even if they are a father of a friend or a father of someone. Weird way to live.

EDIT TO ADD: TSS in response to what you said below, did you read everything in this post? Or just the last line? I don't have a problem with them living what they believe as long as no one is being abused. In fact on the "Sister Wives" show with Cody Brown and his 4 wives, I've no problem. He is an awesome husband and father, IMO.

Also, I'm adding, like I mentioned in my post above in bold, some sources for anyone that would like to help. http://helpthechildbrides.com/help.htm and http://holdingouthelp.org/

[thesometimesaint]

Not my choice of ways to live either. But as long as they don't violate the law. Leave them to their belief, no matter how weird we find them.

[Stone holm]

Not my choice of ways to live either. But as long as they don't violate the law. Leave them to their belief, no matter how weird we find them.

I tend to agree.

[Tacenda]

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/53006373/#53006237

 

Here are the NBC Dateline videos of the show with former FLDS member Rebecca Musser.  It mentions Rebecca helping with the investigation of Warren Jeffs after the raid of the YFZ Texas ranch.  Very difficult to watch.  When is something going to stop this evil, when are authorities going stand up to this?  Freedom of religion is not a pass to do evil.

[thesometimesaint]

As long as they don't violate the law(Please lets not go down that well worn path to criminalizing a belief). They are free to believe anything they want.

[rpn]

Oh, I get the anguish for these people.  It is hard to see how they have real choice.   The prophet prevents them from knowing real facts, including what he himself did.  Ms. Musser's observation, "If that is heaven, I choose hell."   is the only reasonable understanding of what Warren Jeffs did, and Ms. Musser is only where she is today because of what she knew as a child before her knowledge of reality was severely limited.    That isn't religious choice.   (Which doesn't mean that I agree the government should be interfering in their lives --- I just think that if the town was required to maintain a real civil government, that did not impose faith, in violation of the Constitution, the lives of all would improve.

[Tacenda]

"Breaking The Faith" on TLC right now. Featuring the FLDS religion. Whoa, maybe there's hope, that more will want change.

[Tacenda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmdN2KxVtU

 

ACTUAL COURT AUDIO THAT THE JURY IN THE WARREN JEFFS TRIAL IN TEXAS HEARD ON CHILD RAPE. PART ONE OF TWO From Western Capital Multimedia USA

 

What's to say this isn't being done at the YFZ Ranch still?  I hope the world hasn't forgotten. 

[ERayR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRmdN2KxVtU

 

ACTUAL COURT AUDIO THAT THE JURY IN THE WARREN JEFFS TRIAL IN TEXAS HEARD ON CHILD RAPE. PART ONE OF TWO From Western Capital Multimedia USA

 

What's to say this isn't being done at the YFZ Ranch still?  I hope the world hasn't forgotten. 

 

It may be but as far as I have seen there is no evidence to indicate it is happening.  Yet there is evidence that it is happening in almost every town and city in the world.  Why don't you get as incensed about that?  What is it about the FLDS that has focused your anger on them and not on the problem of sexual abuse of children in the general community?

[Tacenda]

It may be but as far as I have seen there is no evidence to indicate it is happening. Yet there is evidence that it is happening in almost every town and city in the world. Why don't you get as incensed about that? What is it about the FLDS that has focused your anger on them and not on the problem of sexual abuse of children in the general community?

Maybe because the adults as well as the children are told it is of God. Most people outside these communities, can catch it vs. this closed society, where the adults sit idley by. And if they protest they could very well be killed. Warren had an incinerator put in that was set at exteme temperatures, enough that one could be cremated. This coming from an ex member that was on a polygamy show. It's simply an evil, people are afraid to stop, because of our constitution, though clearly IMO there are laws being broken. No one is varifying birth records or death records that I know of.

[bluebell]

Maybe because the adults as well as the children are told it is of God. Most people outside these communities, can catch it vs. this closed society, where the adults sit idley by. And if they protest they could very well be killed. Warren had an incinerator put in that was set at exteme temperatures, enough that one could be cremated. This coming from an ex member that was on a polygamy show. It's simply an evil, people are afraid to stop, because of our constitution, though clearly IMO there are laws being broken. No one is varifying birth records or death records that I know of.

 

It's good that people are afraid to assume other people are guilty because of the constitution.  Unless you'd be alright with the authorities just taking someone's word for it if they said some horrible things about you or your loved ones, you should be very supportive of people who are interested in safeguarding citizen's rights.

 

As to the FLDS in texas, i would be extremely surprised if the state is not monitoring them extensively (as they should be).  Why do you believe laws are still being broken there?

 

I also believe that much of what happens there is evil, but then again, i belong to a religion who was also called evil by a lot of people, so I'm hesitant to fully endorse anyone being deprived of their rights without real evidence to support that need.