Flds Exodus From Short Creek

[ERayR]

There was also the gal they trotted out in all the talk shows, who just happened to have written an exposé book which always seemed to get mentioned.

Oh yeah I had forgotten about her. Wasn't she Oprah's inspiration and guiding star?

[Tacenda]

CFR. I'm sorry Oprah's veracity is not above reproach. After the whole fiasco was done they found (I think it was) two cases of abuse. Imprisoned, come now, A bit melodramatic. Much hyperbole.

Is it such a bad thing to be sheltered from the outside world just a tad? Again CFR that the girls are being abused. When offered the chance to leave after the raid while being held hostage the older children were offered a chance to leave and they refused. Again all of these hysteric charges were claims made to justify the raid but were sadly lacking in evidence.

Would it be okay with you if your children and grandchildren were seized because they were being prepared to be introduced to those secret temple rituals. After all we know where they come from. Right?

If only 2% of what this article says is happening, should be CFR enough. These people are under Warren Jeffs spell. The Texas law enforcement have their hands tied as long as people think the way you and Stone holm think. I guess it's okay to stop crime everywhere else, but not on this compound. The way the Child and Family Services handled it, was just what they would do with any other suspected abuser and abuse victim, but on a larger scale. If this were to happen in Utah, there'd be LDS who worked for Child and Welfare Agencies that would have handled the case. Pointing out that it was all the Baptists doing is silly.

These women and children and men, have been brainwashed and no one cares. One day they will when all these people end up dead from a mass suicide. They're all still listening to Warren, and he is prophesying the end of the world, sound familiar?

http://www.dailymail...L-children.html

[Calm]

The way the Child and Family Services handled it, was just what they would do with any other suspected abuser and abuse victim, but on a larger scale.

One would hope not.

A report of an outside agency that came in and observed how CFS was handling the situation. They were not impressed, in fact some were horrified:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700225591/Chairman-says-Texas-CPS-workers-mistreated-FLDS.html

"I have worked in domestic violence/sexual abuse programming for over 20 years and have never seen women and children treated this poorly, not to mention their civil rights being disregarded in this manner. It makes us all wonder how safe anyone is who has children."

"For me, on a personal level, the most difficult aspect of the entire experience was the apparent lies being told to the mothers. I myself felt the inconsistency in information when we had been told that special needs children were to be allowed to stay with their mothers and, yet, by that afternoon, that was no longer the case. This left me in a strange position in which I felt compelled to voice the needs of these children and their mothers. This was met with less than enthusiastic response and after I spoke out for the children, I was asked to either leave the bus or be arrested."

"CPS had as their primary focus the sexual abuse that was alleged, rather than the emotional abuse I felt they were creating."

"It was frightening to watch women and children being herded and separated like cattle with no regard for human rights or the needs of the group or individuals. ... If this had happened in another country, our government would have tried to prevent it! Old films of concentration camps came to mind."

[Tacenda]

One would hope not.

A report of an outside agency that came in and observed how CFS was handling the situation. They were not impressed, in fact some were horrified:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700225591/Chairman-says-Texas-CPS-workers-mistreated-FLDS.html

I wish they'd been able to hold them longer, just enough time for them to be deprogramed but alas, the outside world thought it too harsh. Oh, but life in this insane mess is better?

[ERayR]

If only 2% of what this article says is happening, should be CFR enough. These people are under Warren Jeffs spell. The Texas law enforcement have their hands tied as long as people think the way you and Stone holm think. I guess it's okay to stop crime everywhere else, but not on this compound. The way the Child and Family Services handled it, was just what they would do with any other suspected abuser and abuse victim, but on a larger scale. If this were to happen in Utah, there'd be LDS who worked for Child and Welfare Agencies that would have handled the case. Pointing out that it was all the Baptists doing is silly.

These women and children and men, have been brainwashed and no one cares. One day they will when all these people end up dead from a mass suicide. They're all still listening to Warren, and he is prophesying the end of the world, sound familiar?

http://www.dailymail...L-children.html

It is obvious that Texas law enforcement's hands were or are not tied. Warren Jeffs is in jail for the next 100 years he is certainly in no position to imprison anybody..

Tacenda you are getting bad information or else your dislike for their marriage practices is impeding you.

[ERayR]

I wish they'd been able to hold them longer, just enough time for them to be deprogramed but alas, the outside world thought it too harsh. Oh, but life in this insane mess is better?

There is not any evidence that any deprogramming is now needed or that there ever was. Again your dislike for polygamy is distorting your judgement. Read Cal's link.

[Tacenda]

It is obvious that Texas law enforcement's hands were or are not tied. Warren Jeffs is in jail for the next 100 years he is certainly in no position to imprison anybody..

Tacenda you are getting bad information or else your dislike for their marriage practices is impeding you.

Did you even read the article? I think it is you who has been getting bad information.

[Calm]

I wish they'd been able to hold them longer, just enough time for them to be deprogramed but alas, the outside world thought it too harsh. Oh, but life in this insane mess is better?

Right, so much better to be in the abusive situation with Texas CPS than with their mothers who at the very least had brought up by all accounts happy and healthy kids...at least until CPS got a hold of them.

The workers spent several days in San Angelo, some shortly after the April 3 search of the Yearning for Zion Ranch prompted by a sexual abuse complaint, during the chaotic opening of a shelter in the city's coliseum, or in the days leading up to the children's dispersal to foster care facilities across the state later that month.

"The entire MH support staff was 'fired' the second week; we were sent home due to being 'too compassionate,' " one report stated.

http://www.chron.com...-of-1651350.php

Texas CPS apparently does not have a great reputation, wiki reported kids were four times more likely to die while in their care.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Department_of_Family_and_Protective_Services#cite_note-13

[ERayR]

Did you even read the article? I think it is you who has been getting bad information.

Did you read Cal's link? The Daily Mail? One of UK's National Enquirer type. Read today's issue. An article about Kim Kardasian's stripped dress, an article about how an FBI agent listened to Marilyn Monroe die and a Model who is a mom shows off her bikini body. I think I will stick to DesNews.

Edited to add : your link doesn't work so looked up Daily Mail.

[Calm]

Possibly the Baptists Child and Family Services was placed in charge as well as possibly 4 other Baptist sponsored agencies. Supposedly the head of the Texas CPS was Baptist and possibly the main judge as well. (I've come across allegations but haven't looked up references yet)

Found some documentation:

Kevin Dinnin, the president of Baptist Children and Family Services who served as incident commander at the shelter under a contract between his agency and the state

http://www.chron.com/life/houston-belief/article/Mental-health-staff-rips-CPS-over-handling-of-1651350.php

[Tacenda]

Those children were probably having a fun time playing with toys they'd never seen before. The mother's who know better yet allow abuses to occur deserve to be separated.

HELP...no more posts left. ERayR, these children are oblivious to the outside world, in my mind they are way underprivileged, third world country? They live in a 10th world country. If you had watched the full Oprah interview, which btw, is now really hard to find, you would see what I'm talking about. Also, if you would read more about their plight, stories and testimony from those that were either kicked out or fled, maybe you would understand the situation to be quite scary. It's not National Enquirer stuff, it's very real. Look at their leader, they believe he is the mouthpiece for God and will do whatever he says. I just don't understand the lack of compassion here. Civil liberties? They were lucky to have had just a few days of it when the Baptists took them away.

Update, still no posts available for now.....check this out in the Deseret News....these people erect a monument to Jeffs and then tear it down. It shows that Warren has all power, he is going to take these people down. They are his little pawns. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865559317/FLDS-members-build-giant-tower-only-to-tear-it-down.html?pg=all

[ERayR]

Those children were probably having a fun time playing with toys they'd never seen before. The mother's who know better yet allow abuses to occur deserve to be separated.

They were children from polygamous families not under privileged children from a third world country.

[Calm]

Those children were probably having a fun time playing with toys they'd never seen before.

Not once they got sick with an epidemic of chicken pox and respiratory illness due to the poor and overcrowded conditions.

Texas DFPS could have done things so much better resulting in them getting help needed instead of the DFPS trying to wash their hands of the whole thing once the media started coming down on them for their mishandling of the situation. For example, they could have removed only those children in immediate danger or postpuberty, cutting down on the numbers needing to be processed and being able to find decent places for them to stay while the investigation was handled. There were, IIRC, no complaints about physical abuse in the sense of violence so why remove nursing infants and toddlers from their mothers? Why ban a mother from her baby in the hospital even after the doctor requested she be allowed to stay for the baby's good?

As it was, the experience was a horror for children and mothers, hardly an endorsement of the outside world. You want them to want to leave? Then show them the outside world had something to offer them and treat them like human beings and show them respect, not like cattle. All they did was confirm the women's fears by telling them lies and taking their children away after they said they weren't going to and using threats to enforce behaviour, etc.

[Calm]

Did you read Cal's link? The Daily Mail? One of UK's National Enquirer type. Read today's issue. An article about Kim Kardasian's stripped dress, an article about how an FBI agent listened to Marilyn Monroe die and a Model who is a mom shows off her bikini body. I think I will stick to DesNews.

Edited to add : your link doesn't work so looked up Daily Mail.

You missed the article that Elizabeth I was really a man in drag?

[Calm]

Those children were probably having a fun time playing with toys they'd never seen before.

Right, the kid who wandered around crying and begging for someone to hold and rock him while two CPS workers followed behind him taking notes until an older brother finally took him in care obviously was having a great time.

[Calm]

I don't particularly care about Baptist involvement. If it had happened in rural Utah, the majority of workers probably would have been LDS though I am certain the LDS Church would have known better than to donate church transportation (does BYU have buses anyway?) and would have directed any request to the local school district or something.

However, for whatever reasons the workers came in with an agenda that caused them to mistreat the women and children they were supposed to be caring for and by doing so, they have contributed to making it worse, not better. I do not see it as a situation that justified 'action no matter what' and by mainly relying on what was easily found to be a false report, they started out bad and went to worse. It is very unfortunate, there was at least $14 million spent on the legal side of things apparently, that could have gone a good way to providing aid to those who actually wanted to leave and that might have encouraged others to do so if their lives were not the best.

[ERayR]

You missed the article that Elizabeth I was really a man in drag?

Yep I missed that. Sure gives you confidence in their veracity doesn't it?

[ERayR]

Right, the kid who wandered around crying and begging for someone to hold and rock him while two CPS workers followed behind him taking notes until an older brother finally took him in care obviously was having a great time.

Just what children want, to be separated from their mothers. My goodness how much better can it get?

[thesometimesaint]

Those children were probably having a fun time playing with toys they'd never seen before. The mother's who know better yet allow abuses to occur deserve to be separated.

HELP...no more posts left. ERayR, these children are oblivious to the outside world, in my mind they are way underprivileged, third world country? They live in a 10th world country. If you had watched the full Oprah interview, which btw, is now really hard to find, you would see what I'm talking about. Also, if you would read more about their plight, stories and testimony from those that were either kicked out or fled, maybe you would understand the situation to be quite scary. It's not National Enquirer stuff, it's very real. Look at their leader, they believe he is the mouthpiece for God and will do whatever he says. I just don't understand the lack of compassion here. Civil liberties? They were lucky to have had just a few days of it when the Baptists took them away.

Update, still no posts available for now.....check this out in the Deseret News....these people erect a monument to Jeffs and then tear it down. It shows that Warren has all power, he is going to take these people down. They are his little pawns. http://www.deseretne...own.html?pg=all

In this country you can live anyway you like. As long as they provide food, shelter, clothing, generally accepted medical care, and educational opportunities. They can live in the 10th Century for all the state is concerned. We don't have to like let alone believe their religion. I sure don't. But they have every right to it.

[ERayR]

HELP...no more posts left. ERayR, these children are oblivious to the outside world, in my mind they are way underprivileged, third world country? They live in a 10th world country. If you had watched the full Oprah interview, which btw, is now really hard to find, you would see what I'm talking about. Also, if you would read more about their plight, stories and testimony from those that were either kicked out or fled, maybe you would understand the situation to be quite scary. It's not National Enquirer stuff, it's very real. Look at their leader, they believe he is the mouthpiece for God and will do whatever he says. I just don't understand the lack of compassion here. Civil liberties? They were lucky to have had just a few days of it when the Baptists took them away.

Update, still no posts available for now.....check this out in the Deseret News....these people erect a monument to Jeffs and then tear it down. It shows that Warren has all power, he is going to take these people down. They are his little pawns. http://www.deseretne...own.html?pg=all

In this country you can live anyway you like. As long as they provide food, shelter, clothing, generally accepted medical care, and educational opportunities. They can live in the 10th Century for all the state is concerned. We don't have to like let alone believe their religion. I sure don't. But they have every right to it.

TSS is exactly correct. Again Oprah, queen of sensationalism, is hardly a credible source. Especially when she has the author of an expose book as her guest. I do not lack compassion. My compassion lies with those little children taken from their mothers arms and separated for weeks. Stop and think, would you want your children and grandchildren treated that way? It leaves scars, sometimes for life.

[Tacenda]

ERayR & TSS and whomever,

I agree the state of Texas handled it poorly, but I'm looking at the big picture. These people are being led by a dangerous man who sits behind bars and in his mind he has all power and wields it as if it's a game, they don't realize it. The children's parents are so deceived, they don't know reality. They need to be deprogrammed, they are under a spell. That's the bottom line, and then they can choose for themselves, then they can have freedom of religion, when it's them choosing it for themselves, not someone else.

Why do they have an alter that turns to a bed in the their temple? Jeffs used it to abuse the girls, while letting several girls watch, it was tape recorded, where were these mothers then, give me a break. No give these children a break, it's too late for their parents.

EDIT to Add ! To those who commented below, what about Hitler, wasn't he a leader that was almost prophet like in that people believed every word he said, is it a stretch to say it's the same thing? I've read stories of murdered people in the FLDS group. And when they are a law unto themselves, people are helpless. Also, when you're told since infancy that living polygamy is your salvation it's also a mind wash. Is there anything that can be done that won't take rights away that will save generations ahead?

[Stone holm]

ERayR & TSS and whomever,

I agree the state of Texas handled it poorly, but I'm looking at the big picture. These people are being led by a dangerous man who sits behind bars and in his mind he has all power and wields it as if it's a game, they don't realize it. The children's parents are so deceived, they don't know reality. They need to be deprogrammed, they are under a spell. That's the bottom line, and then they can choose for themselves, then they can have freedom of religion, when it's them choosing it for themselves, not someone else.

Why do they have an alter that turns to a bed in the their temple? Jeffs used it to abuse the girls, while letting several girls watch, it was tape recorded, where were these mothers then, give me a break. No give these children a break, it's too late for their parents.

Tacenda, no I think they are looking at the big picture. Whenever we trample over a large group of peoples' civil liberties in order to rectify something that a few people may have perpetrated we are ignoring the big picture and sacrificing important principles that are there to guarantee each of our personal liberties. That is why you are having people acknowledge that Jeffs may have been doing things he should not have done, but the overriding concern is what the government and perhaps some opportunistic religionists did to basic civil liberties and proper protocol.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR & TSS and whomever,

I agree the state of Texas handled it poorly, but I'm looking at the big picture. These people are being led by a dangerous man who sits behind bars and in his mind he has all power and wields it as if it's a game, they don't realize it. The children's parents are so deceived, they don't know reality. They need to be deprogrammed, they are under a spell. That's the bottom line, and then they can choose for themselves, then they can have freedom of religion, when it's them choosing it for themselves, not someone else.

Why do they have an alter that turns to a bed in the their temple? Jeffs used it to abuse the girls, while letting several girls watch, it was tape recorded, where were these mothers then, give me a break. No give these children a break, it's too late for their parents.

The Jews didn't think too highly of Jesus either. Along with any number of the early Apostles, and other members, were considered dangerous. We can not use that broad of a brush to deny the FLDS their rights as parents. If Mr. Jeffs was having sex with underage girls then he needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But not for his, or his followers beliefs. Deprogramming is an absolute violation of freedom of conscience, and is kidnapping. IMNTBHO anyone who would resort to force or the threat of force should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[Calm]

ERayR & TSS and whomever,

I agree the state of Texas handled it poorly, but I'm looking at the big picture.

The big picture includes how to get Jeffs and others who break the laws legally and how to legally convince his followers that this was right. Because they handled it poorly, this possibility was set way behind. It does no good to remove Jeffs if it leaves others still loyal to him in place...and they are more loyal to him now after Texas showed how little they actually cared about the women and children as individuals than before, imo.

[ERayR]

ERayR & TSS and whomever,

I agree the state of Texas handled it poorly, but I'm looking at the big picture. These people are being led by a dangerous man who sits behind bars and in his mind he has all power and wields it as if it's a game, they don't realize it. The children's parents are so deceived, they don't know reality. They need to be deprogrammed, they are under a spell. That's the bottom line, and then they can choose for themselves, then they can have freedom of religion, when it's them choosing it for themselves, not someone else.

Why do they have an alter that turns to a bed in the their temple? Jeffs used it to abuse the girls, while letting several girls watch, it was tape recorded, where were these mothers then, give me a break. No give these children a break, it's too late for their parents.

There is a proper protocol for handling these problems that does not trample civil rights. Do I think there were/are problems within the FLDS community? Yes. I also think there is problems within the LDS (Mormon) community and within the Baptist community and within any community you want to name. The problem is that when we allow the civil rights of anyone in any of these communities to be violated(no matter how good intentioned we are) we also destroy the civil liberties of every individual in every one of these communities, including our own. The next time they may be coming for your children and grandchildren because of someones well intentioned concern. There are legitimate ways to solve these problems without destroying the constitution.

Texas and the Baptists stepped beyond these bounds.