Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

[Stone holm]

Emotion is not the Spirit and never has been.

True, but it sometimes feels like it to a lot of people, it is usually accompanied by an emmotional reaction.

[ERayR]

The question: Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

Answer: To me mine are superior

[Stone holm]

The question: Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

Answer: To me mine are superior

I suspect most of us Mormons think that our spiritual experiences are superior to those of followers of other faiths -- that is why many find us religiously irritating....sigh. Missionary work is primarily successful if you locate people who are already "dry Mormons" and who are looking. It tends not to be successful, no matter how much praying the otherside does if they are not looking or are already strong in another faith -- does that mean the Lord is selective in who He gives the correct conclusions to? Normally, we pass it off as: 1) they didn't pray, 2) they didn't actually read the B of M, or 3) they were unworthy. We hesitate to conclude that they prayed and didn't get confirmation, because the B of M says they should have gotten confirmation.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Stone holm

[mfbukowski]

But here is a link to a helpful introduction to the Perry Scheme:

http://dl.dropbox.co...erry Scheme.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

That stage 9 absolutely says it all

[ERayR]

I suspect most of us Mormons think that our spiritual experiences are superior to those of followers of other faiths -- that is why many find us religiously irritating....sigh.

Whoa hoss that is not what I said. Read it again. What I said is that to ME my experiences are superior. My experiences are just that, my experiences. They have no validity for others.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I appreciate your opinion and like what you're saying, but would you agree that the Church teaches otherwise? Would not the Church take the position that an Evangelical who believes she has been told by the spirit of God that the Book of Mormon is false has in fact not received that feeling from the spirit of God?

It has been my experience that EV's don't pray that the BoM is true or false, they simply believe that anything other than the Bible is false. Many believe that even to entertain the idea that anything other than the Bible is true is a grievous sin, the same with the Trinity, which states that "if one is to be saved they must think upon the Trinity" (hope I got that right). I once had a lung tumor, the doctors thought it was cancer. My daughter had just left for a mission and I was seated at my computer writing a farewell letter and praying for the right words. A "Spirit of peace" came over me and assured me that no matter what, I would see her again and someday her children (my grandchildren, who now number 4 of hers). All fear was gone and I knew this blessing would come without doubt. It turned out to be sarcoidosis and now I have 7 grandchildren. When I received a testimony of the BoM, it was much earlier at 21. This has lead to all my married children, being married in the Temple and two serving missions. God loves even me, but he will not tell me one truth and someone else another. I have asked many over the years and none have told me they even prayed about the Bible being true, after having had a Spiritual experience they have just assumed it is and as such assuming that anything beyond the Bible false due to sermons making such comments. Thankfully, I asked about the BoM...too many assume that the Bible, BoM, Torah and Koran are true because they grew up being taught so. Being a convert, I did not. I will admit having grown up outside the Church and having read the Bible since a child (my dad was a Baptist Pastor and I preached for a short time to see if it was for me) that is what lead me to the BoM, because I felt the same Spirit as I did while reading the Bible. In addition I had an unbelievable experience when someone gave me a BoM, just from taking it into my hand. Although raised in a different Church, I was born to be LDS. Cuturally I am Baptist, doctrinally I am a Mormon. Hopes this helps.

Wow, just realized it has been 34 years now...joined in (what was then) West Germany and sealed in the Swiss Temple...already had two children then, when they were brought back at 5 and 3, and laid their hands on ours on the alter...there was not a dry eye in the room. We had four couple friends with us and the sisters, including the sister Temple workers were bawling...so was mom and dad, one of the best days of my life!

Edited May 25, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[omni]

I've been watching the new TV series on NatGeo called Polygamy USA about a fundamentalist Mormon community in Centennial Park, AZ. It's interesting to see how much of an emphasis they place on praying and asking God for answers to their questions, must notably whom they should marry. They are following Moroni's promise to pray and ask God if their church is the true church and are receiving spiritual confirmation that it is.

In this community it is customary for the women to ask God who they should marry, not the other way around. One polygamous wife related her story that she had been praying to know who to marry and one day saw her future husband (who was already married to two other women) and at that moment she felt this incredible warmth fill her whole body and she KNEW without a doubt who she was to marry. This is the exact process and response we are taught as Latter-Day Saints to follow, so why did she receive an answer to enter into a polygamous relationship? This isn't an isolated event either, these powerful spiritual experiences are happening to millions of people all over the world every day.

[rpn]

That isn't how the Lord does marriage inspiration. He requires that people make their own decisions and then He confirms them. If He were to tell people to marry X, then who do you think would get the blame if the marriage didn't turn out good? And that would be a stumbling block to solving whatever struggles there are in a marriage.

[rpn]

deleted --- duplicate

Edited May 25, 2013 by rpn

[omni]

So if God confirms you should marry a specific person how is there any less blame than if he told you who to marry? Anyways that aspect is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. This women (and many other women in the community) did exactly as we are taught to do; she prayed to receive an answer to an important question and described receiving a confirmation to her question in the exact same way we do. I wish I had a transcript, but she described receiving a confirmation to her question in a way in which she KNEW, doubting nothing.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know too many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who believe we have the absolute corner on "truth" (whatever and wherever that is). Christ said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." I believe He also said, "Inasmuch as men do good [men of whatever religious stripe, or even of no particular religious stripe], they shall in nowise lose their reward." While I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ because I believe this is where the most good fruit can be found, good fruit is borne by people of every religious stripe, and even by people of good will of no religious stripe. I prefer the approach outlined in this link for resolving questions of "truth" and for determining the standing of each person before God. http://greatgourdini...igious-oneness/

Edited May 25, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

My question is this: How can one know whether these feelings are God testifying that something is true?

By deciding for oneself, which is all anyone can do.

Are there not many other Christians (and other religious people) who themselves feel these feelings about their own leaders, doctrines, etc. and thus believe that they are true?

Yes, there are.

How can we know that our feelings are the correct ones from God and theirs are not?

It not about deciding for others (or judging others), because it about deciding for and judging for oneself (that makes as much sense as my judiging you for asking four questions instead of just the one you said you had). But there is nothing wrong with inviting others to enjoy what you do; they will decide for themselves what to do and feel and believe.

Consequently, should our quest for truth involve a greater focus on investigating the truth claims of religions rather than relying on the universally felt spirit of God?

No. The universally felt Spirit of God rewards everyone’s quest for truth. While we need to find out about the world around us with the faculties and resources we have at hand, it would be inadvisable to substitute investigating truth claims for the Spirit.

Edited May 25, 2013 by CV75

[Storm Rider]

I've been watching the new TV series on NatGeo called Polygamy USA about a fundamentalist Mormon community in Centennial Park, AZ. It's interesting to see how much of an emphasis they place on praying and asking God for answers to their questions, must notably whom they should marry. They are following Moroni's promise to pray and ask God if their church is the true church and are receiving spiritual confirmation that it is.

In this community it is customary for the women to ask God who they should marry, not the other way around. One polygamous wife related her story that she had been praying to know who to marry and one day saw her future husband (who was already married to two other women) and at that moment she felt this incredible warmth fill her whole body and she KNEW without a doubt who she was to marry. This is the exact process and response we are taught as Latter-Day Saints to follow, so why did she receive an answer to enter into a polygamous relationship? This isn't an isolated event either, these powerful spiritual experiences are happening to millions of people all over the world every day.

PI suspect these experiences are occurring because people are praying about things. I am a little perplexed by this thought that we, LDS, think God does not talk to others; where does this come from and how did you/they get it? It is a very foreign concept to me and conflicts with so much of the gospel that I have been taught. I find it strange that there is such a radically different understanding of the simple teachings of the scriptures.

[Storm Rider]

That isn't how the Lord does marriage inspiration. He requires that people make their own decisions and then He confirms them. If He were to tell people to marry X, then who do you think would get the blame if the marriage didn't turn out good? And that would be a stumbling block to solving whatever struggles there are in a marriage.

PI would be hesitant to put parameters around what God will say and what he will not say. The light of truth is constant and if we are seeking his will for us, it is pretty surprising how he will guide us.

[changed]

...I am a little perplexed by this thought that we, LDS, think God does not talk to others; where does this come from and how did you/they get it? It is a very foreign concept to me and conflicts with so much of the gospel that I have been taught. I find it strange that there is such a radically different understanding of the simple teachings of the scriptures.

I agree, of coarse God talks to all of His chidlren - that is the entire point of the Book of Mormon, to show that God talks to more than just the Jewish people...

2 Nephi 29

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

There are more tribes out there than just us.... I look forward to the day when the Mormon church officially recognizes the other lost tribes of Israel.

Edited May 25, 2013 by changed

[omni]

PI suspect these experiences are occurring because people are praying about things. I am a little perplexed by this thought that we, LDS, think God does not talk to others; where does this come from and how did you/they get it? It is a very foreign concept to me and conflicts with so much of the gospel that I have been taught. I find it strange that there is such a radically different understanding of the simple teachings of the scriptures.

It's not that I don't believe God doesn't talk to others, but why would he confirm things that are in direct contradiction to what we teach? In this particular instance it was for this woman to marry a man who was already married to two other women. Im sure this very moment we could find a young man half way around the world who is receiving a confirmation to his prayers that Allah is the one and only true God. If confirmation of the spirit were as reliable as we say it is, I think there would be a lot more LDS in the world and a lot less of the other religions.

[ERayR]

PI would be hesitant to put parameters around what God will say and what he will not say. The light of truth is constant and if we are seeking his will for us, it is pretty surprising how he will guide us.

It is up to us to use that agency that God gives us. The one and only Prince Charming/Snow White thing is a fairy tale.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Emotion is not the Spirit and never has been.

Although felling it is very emotional.

[Calm]

If confirmation of the spirit were as reliable as we say it is, I think there would be a lot more LDS in the world and a lot less of the other religions.

Why?

[Calm]

Although felling it is very emotional.

And physical and mental...and of course spiritual...in fact, any experience---especially intense ones---will most likely involved all four because we don't experience affects, behaviours, cognitions, and spiritual discernments in compartmentalized segments of life. However, if we nurture some of the four and neglect the others, eventually we won't notice the other aspects of our experience as well. Edited May 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Lightbearer]

Mormon truth claims can be examined for their accuracy but the Church teaches that it is by the spirit that one can know the truth of something. This is said to be a feeling of warmth, agreement in your heart and mind, a feeling of peace, etc.

My question is this: How can one know whether these feelings are God testifying that something is true? Are there not many other Christians (and other religious people) who themselves feel these feelings about their own leaders, doctrines, etc. and thus believe that they are true? How can we know that our feelings are the correct ones from God and theirs are not?

(And I'm talking about things that are at odds, like Evangelicals feeling that God has told them through the spirit that the Book of Mormon is false and Mormons obviously feeling that the spirit has told them the opposite).

Consequently, should our quest for truth involve a greater focus on investigating the truth claims of religions rather than relying on the universally felt spirit of God?

As far as I am concerned the Lord is not going to tell anyone that the Book of Mormon is false. Because it is true, I know it beyond any doubt. The reason why others may think they get other answers could be given here:

"Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old. But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble." (Book of Mormon | Jacob 4:13-14)

The Jews desired things they could not understand, so God allowed them to stumble and not see the truth. I think the Lord gives us the desires of our hearts, if we do not desire the truth then we will never find it. There are lots of reasons why people reject the truth, but it stems from our own agency. Also God can reveal the truth but people can harden their hearts against it. Satan has power to influence people with false spirits. So just because someone claims God told them the Book of Mormon is not true does not mean I am required to believe it. All I can answer to is what I know by my expereinces.

[Avatar4321]

I appreciate your opinion and like what you're saying, but would you agree that the Church teaches otherwise? Would not the Church take the position that an Evangelical who believes she has been told by the spirit of God that the Book of Mormon is false has in fact not received that feeling from the spirit of God?

Ask the Lord for yourself. It's only through your own experiences with the Holy Spirit that you will find an answer for your question. Of course, that's only if you really want one.

[Storm Rider]

It's not that I don't believe God doesn't talk to others, but why would he confirm things that are in direct contradiction to what we teach? In this particular instance it was for this woman to marry a man who was already married to two other women. Im sure this very moment we could find a young man half way around the world who is receiving a confirmation to his prayers that Allah is the one and only true God. If confirmation of the spirit were as reliable as we say it is, I think there would be a lot more LDS in the world and a lot less of the other religions.

Possibly, but it would take time and the constant search for truth by all people. I think Allah is God; it is just another name for Heavenly Father and the oneness that is the Godhead. Does God really care about whether we live in polygamy or whether we are strictly monogamous? I suspect that for some it works and for some it does not; the bottom line is that it is not a big deal. Looking at it another way, for LDS the importance of polygamy is rather insignificant when compared to obeying the laws of the land in which we live. If we believe that man has Free Agency first and challenged to find God, it is not surprising that we see such diversification in the world. It is also a testimony about how often man will intercede on behalf of God and create their own teachings, their own beliefs, cultures, customs, rites, etc. God's objective is to guide each of us and give us the degree of truth that we demonstrate we are willing to live. Some cannot live the teachings of the restored Church of Jesus Christ while others willing following. Some take hold of all the truth they can in their own system of belies and are extremely faithful, becoming a holy people. I believe that God acknowledges them as much as he does us and our efforts. In my old age I have come to a point where I believe that God is so much more willing to work with us, have mercy on us; he is saying to us to come unto him. We each do what we can to follow him. We have truths, the truths of exaltation to teach all peoples in all nations. We also can learn so much from others that we must begin in humility to acknowledge their truths that God has given them.

[omni]

Why?

I'm not sure if you ever served a mission, but if you did I'm sure you had many experiences where investigators prayed and never received an answer. There are many members BIC who prayed with real intent and never received an answer, and many more who while losing their faith pleaded with God to know the truth, and never received an answer.

We are promised in Moroni that we will receive a confirmation if we pray with real intent, so why do only some receive it? This observation along with the fact that many others have received spiritual confirmation of things in direct contradiction to what we teach leaves me to believe that it's not as reliable as we are told.

Edited May 26, 2013 by omni

[Stone holm]

I'm not sure if you ever served a mission, but if you did I'm sure you had many experiences where investigators prayed and never received an answer. There are many members BIC who prayed with real intent and never received an answer, and many more who while while losing their faith pleaded with God to know the truth, and never received an answer.

We are promised in Moroni that we will receive a confirmation if we pray with real intent, so why do only some receive it? This observation along with the fact that many others have received spiritual confirmation of things in direct contradiction to what we teach leaves me to believe that it's not as reliable as we are told.

You will never convince certain members of this, the answer will always be do everything you are suppose to be doing and you will receive a confirmation.