Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

[CurrentlyAlive]

I've been watching the new TV series on NatGeo called Polygamy USA about a fundamentalist Mormon community in Centennial Park, AZ. It's interesting to see how much of an emphasis they place on praying and asking God for answers to their questions, must notably whom they should marry. They are following Moroni's promise to pray and ask God if their church is the true church and are receiving spiritual confirmation that it is.

...One polygamous wife related her story that she had been praying to know who to marry and one day saw her future husband (who was already married to two other women) and at that moment she felt this incredible warmth fill her whole body and she KNEW without a doubt who she was to marry... This isn't an isolated event either, these powerful spiritual experiences are happening to millions of people all over the world every day.

Do you know if there is any way I can see this episode now? Is it online, or will it be aired again? I've been trying to understand spiritual experiences of other faiths, and this would be really awesome to see!

Thank you!

[omni]

Do you know if there is any way I can see this episode now? Is it online, or will it be aired again? I've been trying to understand spiritual experiences of other faiths, and this would be really awesome to see!

Thank you!

I would look on the NatGeo website or Hulu for previous episodes. It's on Tuesday nights and often TV series will replay previous episodes so I would check the schedule. The episode I was referencing was the second one I believe, but in just about every one they talk about the importance of praying to God and getting a response to your questions, specifically that of who you are to marry. It's interesting to see how similar they are to us, with a few obvious exceptions of course.

[Stone holm]

No, it isn't obvious. A lot of Christians believe in Biblical inerrancy, and they already "know" the Bible is true. There has to be some Ground Truth for them to start from; some axiomatic foundation. Why would one ask a question they already know the answer to? Suggesting such a thing to them is like asking them to tempt God. How do they know the Bible is true? Why should it be the starting point? Some of them think it stands to reason, others find it reliable and trustworthy. All of them recognize the voice of God in it, and in any case, for them it is the "standard of standards." The Bible itself says to ask God for truth, so in the end, it means to trust in the Bible. So, by following that advice, they would already be presuming the truth of the Bible anyway, which they already do in following other Biblical precepts to good effect. So I suppose when a Mormon tells them that they might "test" God about the Bible itself, it's probably a little bit offensive. The Bible is the First Cause of all reason; it's fundamental, and is therefore the beginning of epistemology. Following the Bible's advice and asking God to discover the truth of the Bible is begging the question and rather audacious. They simply accept it on the grounds I have explained.

This doesn't mean that other Christian churches do not apply the injunction to ask God for further knowledge and truth, or that they don't get the guidance of the Holy Ghost. They do it, and He confirms their faith and sets them in their paths.

But, for us Mormons, praying and asking the truth of things is axiomatic. That's where we begin. That's part of our story, and is possibly one of the things that allows us to say that "Ours is the only church that has ___________." Of course, Chesterton said the same of the Catholic church, only he filled in that blank with other things that he felt were important.

I suppose the intent of the OP was to discover if there is a provably "superior" way to fill in that blank. Yes there is, but it's an individual matter. As Akbar the Great once observed, it is unjustified to assert the truth of one religion over another. This is true, for in doing so we say that one subjective experience is superior to another. That, naturally, cannot be known.

The real answer to the question, "are our spiritual experiences superior?", is, "Yes. To us they are, because only we have our experiences." And anyone who has such an experience is justified in claiming that very same answer regardless of whether or not his or her experience appears to lead to a different conclusion than the experience of another. What greater witness can you have than from God? But if we presume to assert superiority by comparing our experiences to those of others, we can't do it. It doesn't matter if once one was a Catholic and now one is a Mormon (or vice-versa). The fact of conversion doesn't make anybody an authority on comparative spirituality except in their own, personal sphere. There are converts who go in all directions.

When speaking of "spiritual experiences" it would be good to realise that humanity does not even have a consensus on the meaning of the phrase, therefore to try to grade them or rank them is impossible.

[TruthSeeker2013]

That's great!

No problem there- it was just that you STILL asked this, as if you learned nothing in the thread:

So I was confused.

He gave two links- I was talking about the second one, which essentially says that as one grows intellectually, one becomes more tolerant of ambiguity. http://dl.dropboxuse...erry Scheme.pdf

I finally got some time away from work and was able to read the two links. Great stuff! I have to admit that the http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100469/Perry%20Scheme.pdf Perry Scheme stuff pretty much went over my head. I consider myself a pretty smart guy but nowhere near that smart! Haha. The other link was also great, and much more understandable for me I especially loved all the scripture references about different ways one can feel the spirit. Thanks Kevin!

[TruthSeeker2013]

I don't mean to complicate things for you even more, but have you ever felt the spirit in a setting in which you shouldn't have? Since my mission I've felt the spirit more outside of church or the temple than I have inside them. I've felt it watching replays of John Stockton hitting a last second three to send the Jazz to the '97 NBA finals, reading non spiritual books, and a number of movies. In fact one of the times I've felt it strongest came at a very poignant moment in a rated "R" movie (hey wait a second, that's not supposed to happen!). Was the spirit I felt on my mission just a natural process of my body releasing endorphins, or was it a manifestation from God? Still trying to figure it out...

I have. While on my mission I made it a point to visit many other religious congregations to build better relationships and also to explore what others were teaching. I had very strong spiritual experiences in a Sikh gurdwara (probably the strongest spiritual experience of the different religious ceremonies I attended) and Jehovah Witnesses' church. I felt somewhat of a spiritual experience in a Pentecostal church but not none in the Catholic masses I attended. I have felt similar spiritual experience feelings while reading great books, having something finally click in my secular studies, and watching certain films. I, too, have questioned whether it was a purely chemical reaction in my body or something involving God. I'm undecided but have HOPE that God was involved and that's why I had these feelings, no matter the situation.

[TruthSeeker2013]

I wonder sometimes if individuals have roles to play in this Creation that for some reason are best played out outside the Church. What causes me to wonder about that is all the wonderful ethical people who adamantly refuse or reject the Church but in many ways conduct themselves in a superior manner to members. However, such thoughts seem a bit heretical, and I am sure my ultimate Earhly Authority would disagree. She would insist that everyone needs to be in the Church reading every Ensign Article, etc etc.

In case you missed it in one of these thread I made the observation that this earth life experience is not a pass/fail but rather a sifting and sorting. Not everybody can be an every article Ensign reader.

Beautiful thoughts. I love the idea of big tent Mormonism (which includes even those who aren't Mormon!).

[TruthSeeker2013]

No, it isn't obvious. A lot of Christians believe in Biblical inerrancy, and they already "know" the Bible is true. There has to be some Ground Truth for them to start from; some axiomatic foundation. Why would one ask a question they already know the answer to? Suggesting such a thing to them is like asking them to tempt God. How do they know the Bible is true? Why should it be the starting point? Some of them think it stands to reason, others find it reliable and trustworthy. All of them recognize the voice of God in it, and in any case, for them it is the "standard of standards." The Bible itself says to ask God for truth, so in the end, it means to trust in the Bible. So, by following that advice, they would already be presuming the truth of the Bible anyway, which they already do in following other Biblical precepts to good effect. So I suppose when a Mormon tells them that they might "test" God about the Bible itself, it's probably a little bit offensive. The Bible is the First Cause of all reason; it's fundamental, and is therefore the beginning of epistemology. Following the Bible's advice and asking God to discover the truth of the Bible is begging the question and rather audacious. They simply accept it on the grounds I have explained.

This doesn't mean that other Christian churches do not apply the injunction to ask God for further knowledge and truth, or that they don't get the guidance of the Holy Ghost. They do it, and He confirms their faith and sets them in their paths.

But, for us Mormons, praying and asking the truth of things is axiomatic. That's where we begin. That's part of our story, and is possibly one of the things that allows us to say that "Ours is the only church that has ___________." Of course, Chesterton said the same of the Catholic church, only he filled in that blank with other things that he felt were important.

I suppose the intent of the OP was to discover if there is a provably "superior" way to fill in that blank. Yes there is, but it's an individual matter. As Akbar the Great once observed, it is unjustified to assert the truth of one religion over another. This is true, for in doing so we say that one subjective experience is superior to another. That, naturally, cannot be known.

The real answer to the question, "are our spiritual experiences superior?", is, "Yes. To us they are, because only we have our experiences." And anyone who has such an experience is justified in claiming that very same answer regardless of whether or not his or her experience appears to lead to a different conclusion than the experience of another. What greater witness can you have than from God? But if we presume to assert superiority by comparing our experiences to those of others, we can't do it. It doesn't matter if once one was a Catholic and now one is a Mormon (or vice-versa). The fact of conversion doesn't make anybody an authority on comparative spirituality except in their own, personal sphere. There are converts who go in all directions.

Just for the record, my intent actually wasn't to explore whether it could be proved that our experiences were superior, of course they can't as they are not measurable. My intent was to explore how we are to approach the spiritual experiences of others when they appear to be contradictory to our own spiritual experiences. Are they wrong and we're right? Are their spiritual experiences just chemical reactions they are experiencing in their bodies devoid of God's hand? Are ours? How do we know? Are they mislead or untruthful, are we? Just pointing out what my intent was.

Oh, and I think there have been some fantastic answers in this thread to my question, by the way. Lots to think about.

Edited June 1, 2013 by TruthSeeker2013

[Tacenda]

It Matters What We Believe a poem by Sophia Lyon Fahs

Some beliefs are like walled gardens. They encourage exclusiveness, and the feeling of being especially privileged.

Other beliefs are expansive and lead the way into wider and deeper sympathies.

Some beliefs are like shadows, clouding children's days with fears of unknown calamities.

Other beliefs are like sunshine, blessing children with the warmth of happiness.

Some beliefs are divisive, separating the saved for the unsaved, friends from the enemies.

Other beliefs are bonds in a world community, where sincere differences beautify the pattern.

Some beliefs are like blinders, shutting off the power to choose one's own direction.

Other beliefs are like gateways opening wide vistas for exploration.

Some beliefs weaken a person's self-hood. They blight the growth of resourcefulness.

Other beliefs nurture self-confidence and enrich the feeling of personal worth.

Some beliefs are rigid, like the body of death, impotent in a changing world.

Other beliefs are pliable, like the young sapling, ever growing with the upward thrust of life.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

mfb, I found a pdf you might find interesting....at least the very opening (and it is on topic more or less):

In 1892 I was again appointed, under President Wilford Woodruff, to preside over the Southern States Mission. It was during that period of time that I found God; as my father said: God answered my prayers, and isn't that a pretty good evidence that God lives? My testimony was fixed and fast, and what I knew I learned by obedience and through suffering.

I take the position that knowledge cannot be knowledge without experience, so that what I know through the influence of the Holy Ghost--for I have heard that still, small voice--I know to my perfect satisfaction. There is no question of a doubt in my mind as to the truth of this work, and any time in my life that I can be convinced that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, then I will question the truth of this work. But Joseph Smith to me is a prophet, and there is hardly a Kimball living in the flesh today--of the first generation--notwithstanding we were very young when our father died, that did not have burned into his soul as a child that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the living God: that Brigham Young was his successor; that he too was a great prophet.

http://emp.byui.edu/jexj/new/talks/talks/JGK%20GiftProphecy.pdf

[ERayR]

mfb, I found a pdf you might find interesting....at least the very opening (and it is on topic more or less):

http://emp.byui.edu/...iftProphecy.pdf

It is so right, when one gets that testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that his successors are also called of God then one can get the priorities straight. Joseph nor his successors were not perfect men but what is important is to know they were and are called of God.

[mfbukowski]

mfb, I found a pdf you might find interesting....at least the very opening (and it is on topic more or less):

http://emp.byui.edu/...iftProphecy.pdf

It's great- thanks

It's no accident that what has been called "American Philosophy" is the philosophy of experience.

Pragmatism

Perhaps the most influential school of thought that is uniquely American is pragmatism. It began in the late nineteenth century in the United States with Charles Sanders Peirce, William James, and John Dewey. Pragmatism begins with the idea that belief is that upon which one is willing to act. It holds that a proposition's meaning is the consequent form of conduct or practice that would be implied by accepting the proposition as true.^[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_philosophy#Pragmatism

It is engrained in the way Americans think, and is just part of the culture, and the very air we breathe.

[pmccombs1]

Are their spiritual experiences just chemical reactions they are experiencing in their bodies devoid of God's hand? Are ours? How do we know? Are they mislead or untruthful, are we? Just pointing out what my intent was.

Those are all possibilities. Since there is no way to know, I suppose we shouldn't worry about it too much, only so far as will make us humble when it comes to dealing with the experiences and beliefs of others.

[ERayR]

Are their spiritual experiences just chemical reactions they are experiencing in their bodies devoid of God's hand? Are ours? How do we know? Are they mislead or untruthful, are we? Just pointing out what my intent was.

Oh, and I think there have been some fantastic answers in this thread to my question, by the way. Lots to think about.

They are whatever we choose to make them.

[inquiringmind]

Those are all possibilities. Since there is no way to know, I suppose we shouldn't worry about it too much, only so far as will make us humble when it comes to dealing with the experiences and beliefs of others.

I know someone who says he has a constant, literal, physical manifestation of G-d's presence.

He says it's a physical sensation of wamth or burning (without pain) around his head, neck, and shoulders.

Has anyone here ever experienced anything like that, or known anyone inside or outside of the church that has?

He doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

[Stone holm]

I know someone who says he has a constant, literal, physical manifestation of G-d's presence.

He says it's a physical sensation of wamth or burning (without pain) around his head, neck, and shoulders.

Has anyone here ever experienced anything like that, or known anyone inside or outside of the church that has?

He doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

Hard to say. Would be handy though up here in Vermont in the winter.

[Calm]

He says it's a physical sensation of wamth or burning (without pain) around his head, neck, and shoulders.

I know of people experiencing such sensations in other parts of their body so I assume that it would be possible for that area. I have it in my feet and hands, though it's never been consistent over days (just hours) and at times now it increases to pain or shifts to feeling cold (the diagnosis is idiopathic peripheral neuropathy). Even given that there may be physical reasons for such sensations, doesn't mean it isn't what he says it is. How else would God interact with us than with what is already there in our body...thus sensations can mean multiple things, including the presence of the Spirit imo.

How does he explain how and why he is receiving such? (Just curious, not challenging.)

Edited June 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

I know of people experiencing such sensations in other parts of their body so I assume that it would be possible for that area. I have it in my feet and hands, though it's never been consistent over days (just hours) and at times now it increases to pain or shifts to feeling cold (the diagnosis is idiopathic peripheral neuropathy). Even given that there may be physical reasons for such sensations, doesn't mean it isn't what he says it is. How else would God interact with us than with what is already there in our body...thus sensations can mean multiple things, including the presence of the Spirit imo.

How does he explain how and why he is receiving such? (Just curious, not challenging.)

He says he's born again.

[Calm]

He says he's born again.

And the purpose of such a spiritual connection? What does he see it as? Just to comfort him? Did he ask for it?

[inquiringmind]

And the purpose of such a spiritual connection? What does he see it as? Just to comfort him? Did he ask for it?

He says he sinned, and he's workinghis way back into G-d's favor, and he takes this as a sign that he's moving in the right direction.

[Stone holm]

He says he sinned, and he's workinghis way back into G-d's favor, and he takes this as a sign that he's moving in the right direction.

If it works for him, who are we to judge.

[inquiringmind]

If it works for him, who are we to judge.

I was answering calmoriah's questions.

I didn't ask anyone to judge him.

I asked if anyone here has experienced anything like the kind of constant, literal, physical sensation of warmth or burning (without pain) around the head, neck, and shoulders.

He says it's something like sunbathing on a summer's day with your lower body in the shade, and he says this is with him all the time, every waking moment of every day (regardless of the weather.)

Has anyone here had this experience, or known anyone inside or outside of the church (or in another Church) that has?

As I said, he doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

[Stone holm]

I was answering calmoriah's questions.

I didn't ask anyone to judge him.

I asked if anyone here has experienced anything like the kind of constant, literal, physical sensation of warmth or burning (without pain) around the head, neck, and shoulders.

He says it's something like sunbathing on a summer's day with your lower body in the shade, and he says this is with him all the time, every waking moment of every day (regardless of the weather.)

Has anyone here had this experience, or known anyone inside or outside of the church (or in another Church) that has?

As I said, he doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

It sounds like a medical condition, but the minute somebody makes that diagnosis there will be an implied judgment. Didn't mean to infer you were judging. Whether it is a medical condition or not, it is a truth to him, and if it helps him get over some guilt he has placed on his own shoulders or has been placed on his shoulders by some minister, then it really doesn't matter. Hence if it works for him, why should we care.

[Calm]

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

There are multiple known and unknown medical reasons for this type of sensation somewhere on the body including neck, etc. Just type in "feels like sunburn but not on neck, back, shoulders" or something like that and plenty of questions of people experiencing this comes up. However, as I said before that does not mean the ultimate cause isn't exactly what he said it is.

I have never heard of it being described as a spiritual condition.

Edited June 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

There are multiple known and unknown medical reasons for this type of sensation somewhere on the body including neck, etc. Just type in "feels like sunburn but not on neck, back, shoulders" or something like that and plenty of questions of people experiencing this comes up. However, as I said before that does not mean the ultimate cause isn't exactly what he said it is.

I have never heard of it being described as a spiritual condition.

I agree.

[Tacenda]

There are multiple known and unknown medical reasons for this type of sensation somewhere on the body including neck, etc. Just type in "feels like sunburn but not on neck, back, shoulders" or something like that and plenty of questions of people experiencing this comes up. However, as I said before that does not mean the ultimate cause isn't exactly what he said it is.

I have never heard of it being described as a spiritual condition.

I read the other day that people that are bi-polar often are people that claim they have visions or see people on the other side. It mskes me wonder if these people feeling sensations could be bi-polar. Btw, don't CFR it was from another person, not a science article.