Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And physical and mental...and of course spiritual...in fact, any experience---especially intense ones---will most likely involved all four because we don't experience affects, behaviours, cognitions, and spiritual discernments in compartmentalized segments of life. However, if we nurture some of the four and neglect the others, eventually we won't notice the other aspects of our experience as well.

True...Nephi described as "the consuming of his flesh".

[Stone holm]

We have a somewhat circular approach at times, we use the Spirit to get a testimony of our teachings and Scriptures, but then judge whether inspiration was truly of the Spirit by seeing if it is consistent with our Scriptures and teachings. Best then at the beginning to only get a fairly shallow touch of the Spirit.

[ERayR]

We have a somewhat circular approach at times, we use the Spirit to get a testimony of our teachings and Scriptures, but then judge whether inspiration was truly of the Spirit by seeing if it is consistent with our Scriptures and teachings. Best then at the beginning to only get a fairly shallow touch of the Spirit.

??

[Stone holm]

??

You disagree with the circularity.

[ERayR]

I'm not sure if you ever served a mission, but if you did I'm sure you had many experiences where investigators prayed and never received an answer. There are many members BIC who prayed with real intent and never received an answer, and many more who while losing their faith pleaded with God to know the truth, and never received an answer.

We are promised in Moroni that we will receive a confirmation if we pray with real intent, so why do only some receive it? This observation along with the fact that many others have received spiritual confirmation of things in direct contradiction to what we teach leaves me to believe that it's not as reliable as we are told.

Who is judging "real intent"? That is something you don't know nor do I. It is something only God knows. What I do know is that God never fails to answer prayers but sometimes we are not listening. I also know that even if we do hear them it sometimes takes years to see the wisdom in his answers.

[ERayR]

You disagree with the circularity.

I don't know what your talking about.

[Stone holm]

I don't know what your talking about.

We urge people to seek confirmation whether things are true and then judge the accuracy of what they receive in response by how consistent their reported response is by those things which they were trying to get a witness of.

[mfbukowski]

We have a somewhat circular approach at times, we use the Spirit to get a testimony of our teachings and Scriptures, but then judge whether inspiration was truly of the Spirit by seeing if it is consistent with our Scriptures and teachings. Best then at the beginning to only get a fairly shallow touch of the Spirit.

I judge the scriptures by my personal revelations. Scripture is what God has supposedly told other people- if I don't feel that in my heart, it is not scripture for me anyway.

[mfbukowski]

We urge people to seek confirmation whether things are true and then judge the accuracy of what they receive in response by how consistent their reported response is by those things which they were trying to get a witness of.

Who's this "we" anyway, Kemosabe?

[canard78]

I appreciate your opinion and like what you're saying, but would you agree that the Church teaches otherwise? Would not the Church take the position that an Evangelical who believes she has been told by the spirit of God that the Book of Mormon is false has in fact not received that feeling from the spirit of God?

The church takes the position that other people of other faiths (including non-Christian) are inspired by God. If that leads them to a position that contradicts Mormonism God obviously has no issue with it.

In God's great efficiency he obviously I knows what he's doing. If he chooses to reveal different aspects of truth to different people (Joseph included) then He seems to be ok with that:

In 1978, under the direction of President Spencer W. Kimball, the first presidency made the statement that: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

An Aug 2000 article in the Ensign quoted B.H. Roberts of the quorum of the seventy who said: “While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. … All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng

Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Latter-day Saints believe that all human beings are God’s children and that He loves all of us. He has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon but other people as well to carry out His purposes through all cultures and parts of the world. God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions. The restored gospel holds a positive relationship with other religions. Intolerance is always a sign of weakness. The Latter-day Saint perspective is that of the eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may” (Articles of Faith 1:11).

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/global-mormonism-21st-century/20-church-cross-cultural-world

Just a few for starters There are more. So yes God communicates with all of his children and yes that leads to apparent contradictions. But then we see through a glass darkly. I'm sure they're not contradictions from where He's sitting.

[TruthSeeker2013]

Have you read my essay on "A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience" which uses the lens of comparative religious experience. If so, what do you think? If not, why not?

http://dl.dropbox.co..._experience.pdf

Thanks Kevin! This looks like great stuff. I'll sit down and give it a read.

[TruthSeeker2013]

I've been watching the new TV series on NatGeo called Polygamy USA about a fundamentalist Mormon community in Centennial Park, AZ. It's interesting to see how much of an emphasis they place on praying and asking God for answers to their questions, must notably whom they should marry. They are following Moroni's promise to pray and ask God if their church is the true church and are receiving spiritual confirmation that it is.

In this community it is customary for the women to ask God who they should marry, not the other way around. One polygamous wife related her story that she had been praying to know who to marry and one day saw her future husband (who was already married to two other women) and at that moment she felt this incredible warmth fill her whole body and she KNEW without a doubt who she was to marry. This is the exact process and response we are taught as Latter-Day Saints to follow, so why did she receive an answer to enter into a polygamous relationship? This isn't an isolated event either, these powerful spiritual experiences are happening to millions of people all over the world every day.

Thanks omni, that's a great example. So my question in this kind of a situation is, are those polygamous members of the FLDS feeling something other than the spirit? If their spiritual expletives are the same as the Mormons', then how can we say OUR doctrines are correct and THEIR doctrines are incorrect? How can we reconcile the two?

[TruthSeeker2013]

.

It not about deciding for others (or judging others), because it about deciding for and judging for oneself (that makes as much sense as my judiging you for asking four questions instead of just the one you said you had). But there is nothing wrong with inviting others to enjoy what you do; they will decide for themselves what to do and feel and believe.

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

[mfbukowski]

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

Oh clearly it is God contradicting himself. You know- just to keep us on our toes.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

Your question presumes that religious truth is the same as scientific truth- there there is a testable standard which is knowable against which revelatory truth may be judged- but there is not.

The problem is that it presumes that we can all look into God's mind and say "Yep- see here- that's what he wants me to do" or "Nope- see over here? Go's will is actually THIS- but you say it's THAT!"

Such a knowable standard we can all agree on doesn't exist.

It's not like 1+1=2 and not 3 - ever - under any possible circumstances.

Gods will is not observable objectively. So though it may "be" objective in some sense, we cannot ALL know that it is through observation.

There is nothing to point to which both warring factions can agree would solve which is right.

So because of that we cannot say that our experiences are more correct than others'- at least not in a way which will show them that we are right and that they are wrong. There is nothing to point to, as there is in science.

So arguing about it is pointless. There is no observable standard from which to judge.

But here is a link to a helpful introduction to the Perry Scheme:

http://dl.dropbox.co...erry Scheme.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Edited May 27, 2013 by mfbukowski

[TruthSeeker2013]

It's not that I don't believe God doesn't talk to others, but why would he confirm things that are in direct contradiction to what we teach? In this particular instance it was for this woman to marry a man who was already married to two other women. Im sure this very moment we could find a young man half way around the world who is receiving a confirmation to his prayers that Allah is the one and only true God. If confirmation of the spirit were as reliable as we say it is, I think there would be a lot more LDS in the world and a lot less of the other religions.

Yes, why would God contradict himself? And would it not be natural for someone investigating religions to say, "hm, these different religions are saying you can know the truth by praying and feeling the spirit, yet by doing this there are many different people who have felt the spirit tell them many different contradicting religions and doctrines are true, so maybe I should look at what the religions teach and analyze their truth claims to come to my conclusion, alongside my own praying and feeling the spirit." Would we advise such an investigator against analyzing truth claims of different religions including our own? Would we tell the investigator that the members of other religions who thought they prayed about the truth and felt the spirit confirm it were wrong? How else do we teach investigators that our religion is the one and only Church of God with the complete truth and authority without discounting the spiritual experiences of other religious people about the truth of their church leaders, doctrines, and religions?

[canard78]

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

F is before L in the alphabet so they get first dibs. But then JS is before WJ so they're only right if they pray about him.

[Stone holm]

Yes, why would God contradict himself? And would it not be natural for someone investigating religions to say, "hm, these different religions are saying you can know the truth by praying and feeling the spirit, yet by doing this there are many different people who have felt the spirit tell them many different contradicting religions and doctrines are true, so maybe I should look at what the religions teach and analyze their truth claims to come to my conclusion, alongside my own praying and feeling the spirit." Would we advise such an investigator against analyzing truth claims of different religions including our own? Would we tell the investigator that the members of other religions who thought they prayed about the truth and felt the spirit confirm it were wrong? How else do we teach investigators that our religion is the one and only Church of God with the complete truth and authority without discounting the spiritual experiences of other religious people about the truth of their church leaders, doctrines, and religions?

But what about the vision of the iron rod and the idea of Jesus Christ being the only way, and the LDS Church being the only true Church?

[TruthSeeker2013]

I'm not sure if you ever served a mission, but if you did I'm sure you had many experiences where investigators prayed and never received an answer. There are many members BIC who prayed with real intent and never received an answer, and many more who while losing their faith pleaded with God to know the truth, and never received an answer.

We are promised in Moroni that we will receive a confirmation if we pray with real intent, so why do only some receive it? This observation along with the fact that many others have received spiritual confirmation of things in direct contradiction to what we teach leaves me to believe that it's not as reliable as we are told.

I agree that the spirit doesn't seem to be as reliable as what I was taught while growing up in the church, which I find frustrating and confusing. It leads me to question my own spiritual experiences and wonder if they are really that meaningful when I see many other people having contradictory spiritual experiences. If spiritual experiences aren't very indicative of a religion's truth as I was previously taught/thought, then I naturally look for other areas where I can compare my religion to that of others' to find the truth, namely, truth claims. Alternatively, it suggests to me that perhaps these people experiencing spiritual experiences are finding the right path FOR THEM to God, but this contradicts our doctrine of the one and only completely true church and only path to celestial glory. I'm kind of venting my frustrations, sorry.

[Stone holm]

I agree that the spirit doesn't seem to be as reliable as what I was taught while growing up in the church, which I find frustrating and confusing. It leads me to question my own spiritual experiences and wonder if they are really that meaningful when I see many other people having contradictory spiritual experiences. If spiritual experiences aren't very indicative of a religion's truth as I was previously taught/thought, then I naturally look for other areas where I can compare my religion to that of others' to find the truth, namely, truth claims. Alternatively, it suggests to me that perhaps these people experiencing spiritual experiences are finding the right path FOR THEM to God, but this contradicts our doctrine of the one and only completely true church and only path to celestial glory. I'm kind of venting my frustrations, sorry.

The Spirit is more reliable than we imagine, but He treads a fine line between influence and compulsion and the mortal mind is a fragile thing. In addition, we ourselves obfuscate the truth with our opinions, personal and family experience and traditions, and even our political beliefs. So the seeker has to penetrate through all of that and get the cotton of his ears before he can understand. We sometimes get very frustrated with all those splinters in everyone else's eyes.

[ERayR]

If confirmation of the spirit were as reliable as we say it is, I think there would be a lot more LDS in the world and a lot less of the other religions.

Confirmation by the Spirit is only as reliable as we allow it to be in our lives.

[TruthSeeker2013]

Oh clearly it is God contradicting himself. You know- just to keep us on our toes.

I sense sarcasm, but I have indeed heard this argument before, haha.

[ERayR]

We urge people to seek confirmation whether things are true and then judge the accuracy of what they receive in response by how consistent their reported response is by those things which they were trying to get a witness of.

I don't judge anybody's response. Their response is theirs and not mine to judge. This life is not a pass or fail but rather a sifting and separation. When it is over we will all be where we are most comfortable and happy. I expect some of us may have some regrets but not for long.

[TruthSeeker2013]

The Spirit is more reliable than we imagine, but He treads a fine line between influence and compulsion and the mortal mind is a fragile thing. In addition, we ourselves obfuscate the truth with our opinions, personal and family experience and traditions, and even our political beliefs. So the seeker has to penetrate through all of that and get the cotton of his ears before he can understand. We sometimes get very frustrated with all those splinters in everyone else's eyes.

It sounds like what you're saying is that our spiritual experiences telling us the mormon church is true are correct and others' spiritual experiences contradicting this are incorrect for one reason or another. I think this is indeed what the church teaches. And then the question for me that follows is, "how do we know we got it right and they got it wrong, assuming that there is only one true church?" Maybe comparing doctrines and truth claims are a couple of ways.

[ERayR]

It sounds like what you're saying is that our spiritual experiences telling us the mormon church is true are correct and others' spiritual experiences contradicting this are incorrect for one reason or another. I think this is indeed what the church teaches. And then the question for me that follows is, "how do we know we got it right and they got it wrong, assuming that there is only one true church?" Maybe comparing doctrines and truth claims are a couple of ways.

See my post # 73. You see it doesn't come down to a bright line right or wrong. Its all about us finding our place in the eternal scheme of things.