Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

[thesometimesaint]

I read the other day that people that are bi-polar often are people that claim they have visions or see people on the other side. It mskes me wonder if these people feeling sensations could be bi-polar. Btw, don't CFR it was from another person, not a science article.

That is a logical fallacy. There is population A(those that are bipolar), and population B(those that see visions and/or see people on the other side). Population C is the convergence of the two. There is some overlap, but the populations are not identical.

Edited June 2, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Bikeemikey]

I was answering calmoriah's questions.

I didn't ask anyone to judge him.

I asked if anyone here has experienced anything like the kind of constant, literal, physical sensation of warmth or burning (without pain) around the head, neck, and shoulders.

He says it's something like sunbathing on a summer's day with your lower body in the shade, and he says this is with him all the time, every waking moment of every day (regardless of the weather.)

Has anyone here had this experience, or known anyone inside or outside of the church (or in another Church) that has?

As I said, he doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

We probably shouldn't judge him, but suggesting he get a brain MRI to check for brain tumor might not be a bad idea.

[Bikeemikey]

That is a logical fallacy. There is population A(those that are bipolar), and population B(those that see visions and/or see people on the other side). Population C is the convergence of the two. There is some overlap, but the populations are not identical.

Not sure it is a logical fallacy that bipolar individuals report more visions.

[TruthSeeker2013]

I read the other day that people that are bi-polar often are people that claim they have visions or see people on the other side. It mskes me wonder if these people feeling sensations could be bi-polar. Btw, don't CFR it was from another person, not a science article.

Many have wondered if Joseph Smith had a metal disorder.

[Stone holm]

Not sure it is a logical fallacy that bipolar individuals report more visions.

Seriously Mike did you read that before posting? My ultimate earthly authority was wondering if you had a bad day today.

[mfbukowski]

I was answering calmoriah's questions.

I didn't ask anyone to judge him.

I asked if anyone here has experienced anything like the kind of constant, literal, physical sensation of warmth or burning (without pain) around the head, neck, and shoulders.

He says it's something like sunbathing on a summer's day with your lower body in the shade, and he says this is with him all the time, every waking moment of every day (regardless of the weather.)

Has anyone here had this experience, or known anyone inside or outside of the church (or in another Church) that has?

As I said, he doesn't seem to have any reason I can see to lie to me about this.

Are there any known medical, psychological, or biochemical conditions that could cause anything remotely similar to what he describes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosacea

[TruthSeeker2013]

Why are we are speculating about if he may have a health problem? Is his self described spiritual experience really different from ours or our fellow members'? I don't understand how we can second guess his spiritual experience without necessarily questioning our own.

[Stone holm]

Why are we are speculating about if he may have a health problem? Is his self described spiritual experience really different from ours or our fellow members'? I don't understand how we can second guess his spiritual experience without necessarily questioning our own.

Agreed.

[BlueDreams]

Why are we are speculating about if he may have a health problem? Is his self described spiritual experience really different from ours or our fellow members'? I don't understand how we can second guess his spiritual experience without necessarily questioning our own.

It's okay to question our own spiritual experiences. In fact I think it's pertinent to learn to judge. As for this, It's probably the oddity of it that's leading to questions here. I would question anyone whose spiritual manifestation was constant and physically specific over a long period of time. At least for something that could be indicative of a health condition.

.....

My intent was to explore how we are to approach the spiritual experiences of others when they appear to be contradictory to our own spiritual experiences. Are they wrong and we're right? Are their spiritual experiences just chemical reactions they are experiencing in their bodies devoid of God's hand? Are ours? How do we know? Are they mislead or untruthful, are we? Just pointing out what my intent was.

I've been thinking a little about this. I have gotten to here quite a few spiritual experiences/claims from many different people. The spirit certainly can answer a person in a variety of ways. And for the most part, the spirit is the spirit. I know plenty from all walks who have felt it's influence, including atheists/agnostics. Even when the answers seem to contradict what we see as right (personally, I can't think of one that does contradict....at least the most basic principles: becoming a better person and closer to God....what ever means possible. The Lord will do anything to bring further light to His children)

That stated, there are experiences that aren't of the Spirit. Both member and non-member alike. Some are more emotional response than anything else...they may even have element of true things wrapped in there. Some are simply not of God, but some other spirit. Personally, in my experience (and without going into detail), the spirit has witnessed to what is of Godly influence and what isn't. These were important for me to understand so that I could learn to better recognize truth and the Lord. So to these questions: yes to all. It's not an either/or thing between man-made groups. What's of the Spirit will carry the witness of the Spirit. What's not of God, will not. We're all His children. He will speak to any that will listen. We all are learning, we all collect things that are not true or mistakenly not of God.

Consequently, should our quest for truth involve a greater focus on investigating the truth claims of religions rather than relying on the universally felt spirit of God?

No, I don't think so. Both are important. The spirit helps us to recognize the truth and to make that truth apart of us. If we insist on investigating the truth claims more at the cost of what is felt by the Spirit, we are relying too heavily on what we perceive as right. If the Spirit testifies of something good or true, then I believe it's our responsibility to understand why that is so. If something said doesn't ring of the Lord, it's our responsibility to learn why. As I've personally learned, it's helped me to better understand the Spirit and recognize the path God is carefully leading all of His children to. It's also helped me to discern the truth and what is the spirit in my own.

I recognize the "hallmarks" of the Lord guiding me, more easily because I have begun to learn how to judge what's of Him and what's not. At times the answer could even seem contradictory to our limited view....but more often than not, it isn't...we just don't understand it.

With luv,

BD

[thesometimesaint]

Not sure it is a logical fallacy that bipolar individuals report more visions.

Actually all of us see "visions" about equally. The Bi-Polar just think those visions are real.

[Stone holm]

Actually all of us see "visions" about equally. The Bi-Polar just think those visions are real.

You telling me the voices in my head aren't real? Oh no....

[mfbukowski]

Actually all of us see "visions" about equally. The Bi-Polar just think those visions are real.

And if course your testimony is not.

OK that is a good explanation, just not for our side.

[Lightbearer]

It sounds like what you're saying is that our spiritual experiences telling us the mormon church is true are correct and others' spiritual experiences contradicting this are incorrect for one reason or another. I think this is indeed what the church teaches. And then the question for me that follows is, "how do we know we got it right and they got it wrong, assuming that there is only one true church?" Maybe comparing doctrines and truth claims are a couple of ways.

Not sure if that is what he was saying but yes that is what I am saying. Of course one must have a testimony of the truth in order to descern and also revelation through the priesthood, the following is quite lengthy and may be offensive to some but it is from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and may help with this thread:

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Four 1839-42, p.202-207)

"Try the Spirits"

The Prophet's Editorial in the Times and Seasons

--------------------

"Recent occurrences that have transpired amongst us render it an imperative duty devolving upon me to say something in relation to the spirits by which men are actuated.

It is evident from the Apostles' writings, that many false spirits existed in their day, and had "gone forth into the world," and that it needed intelligence which God alone could impart to detect false spirits, and to prove what spirits were of God. The world in general have been grossly ignorant in regard to this one thing, and why should they be otherwise--for "the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

The Egyptians were not able to discover the difference between the miracles of Moses and those of the magicians until they came to be tested together; and if Moses had not appeared in their midst, they would unquestionably have thought that the miracles of the magicians were performed through the mighty power of God, for they were great miracles that were performed by them--a supernatural agency was developed, and great power manifested.

* * *

It would have been equally as difficult for us to tell by what spirit the Apostles prophesied, or by what power the Apostles spoke and worked miracles. Who could have told whether the power of Simon, the sorcerer, was of God or of the devil?

There always did, in every age, seem to be a lack of intelligence pertaining to this subject. Spirits of all kinds have been manifested, in every age, and almost among all people.

If we go among the pagans, they have their spirits; the Mohammedans, the Jews, the Christians, the Indians--all have their spirits, all have a supernatural agency, and all contend that their spirits are of God. Who shall solve the mystery? "Try the spirits," says John, but who is to do it? The learned, the eloquent, the philosopher, the sage, the divine--all are ignorant. The heathens will boast of their gods, and of the great things that have been unfolded by their oracles. The Mussulman will boast of his Koran, and of the divine communications that his progenitors have received. The Jews have had numerous instances, both ancient and modern, among them of men who have professed to be inspired, and sent to bring about great events, and the Christian world has not been slow in making up the number.

Ignorance of the Nature of Spirits

"Try the spirits," but what by? Are we to try them by the creeds of men? What preposterous folly--what sheer ignorance--what madness! Try the motions and actions of an eternal being (for I contend that all spirits are such) by a thing that was conceived in ignorance, and brought forth in folly--a cobweb of yesterday! Angels would hide their faces, and devils would be ashamed and insulted, and would say, "Paul we know, and Jesus we know, but who are ye?" Let each man of society make a creed and try evil spirits by it, and the devil would shake his sides; it is all that he would ask--all that he would desire. Yet many of them do this, and hence "many spirits are abroad in the world."

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc., and imagine that when there is anything like power, revelation, or vision manifested, that it must be of God. Hence the Methodists, Presbyterians, and others frequently possess a spirit that will cause them to lie down, and during its operation, animation is frequently entirely suspended; they consider it to be the power of God, and a glorious manifestation from God--a manifestation of what? Is there any intelligence communicated? Are the curtains of heaven withdrawn, or the purposes of God developed? Have they seen and conversed with an angel--or have the glories of futurity burst upon their view? No! but their body has been inanimate, the operation of their spirit suspended, and all the intelligence that can be obtained from them when they arise, is a shout of "glory," or "hallelujah," or some incoherent expression; but they have had "the power."

The Shaker will whirl around on his heel, impelled by a supernatural agency or spirit, and think that he is governed by the Spirit of God; and the Jumper will jump and enter into all kinds of extravagances. A Primitive Methodist will shout under the influence of that spirit, until he will rend the heavens with his cries; while the Quakers (or Friends) moved as they think, by the Spirit of God, will sit still and say nothing. Is God the author of all this? If not all of it, which does He recognize? Surely, such a heterogeneous mass of confusion never can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Discerning of Spirits by Power of Priesthood

Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbor's spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? Because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it. Could any one tell the length, breadth or height of a building without a rule? Test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary systems, without a knowledge of astronomy? Certainly not; and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind, who can describe an angel of light? If Satan should appear as one in glory, who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory, or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can detect the spirit of the French prophets with their revelations and their visions, and power of manifestations? Or who can point out the spirit of the Irvingites, with their apostles and prophets, and visions and tongues, and interpretations, etc. Or who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God, so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysteries operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look and gesture, and the zeal that is frequently manifested by him for the glory of God, together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb, which are so characteristic of his proceedings and his mysterious windings.

A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects. Long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage and desolation are habiliments in which it has been clothed.

* * *

The Spirit of God the Spirit of Knowledge

As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the Spirit of God to know the things of God; and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person or persons have a communication, or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of the spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles; for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the Spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves "in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth," and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.

The Gift of Discernment of Spirits

A man must have the discerning of spirits, as we before stated, to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the Spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation? "Christ ascended into heaven, and gave gifts to men; and he gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers." And how were Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists chosen? By prophecy (revelation) and by laying on of hands--by a divine communication, and a divinely appointed ordinance--through the medium of the Priesthood, organized according to the order of God, by divine appointment. The Apostles in ancient times held the keys of this Priesthood--of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, and consequently were enabled to unlock and unravel all things pertaining to the government of the Church, the welfare of society, the future destiny of men, and the agency, power and influence of spirits; for they could control them at pleasure, bid them depart in the name of Jesus, and detect their mischievous and mysterious operations when trying to palm themselves upon the Church in a religious garb, and militate against the interest of the Church and spread truth. We read that they "cast out devils in the name of Jesus," and when a woman possessing the spirit of divination, cried before Paul and Silas, "these are the servants of the Most High God that show unto us the way of salvation," they detected the spirit. And although she spake favorably of them, Paul commanded the spirit come out of her, and saved themselves from the opprobrium that might have been heaped upon their heads, through an alliance with her, in the development of her wicked principles, which they certainly would have been charged with, if they had not rebuked the evil spirit.

The Gift Held by the Prophets

A power similar to this existed through the medium of the Priesthood in different ages. Moses could detect the magician's power, and show that he [himself] was God's servant--he knew when he was upon the mountain (through revelation) that Israel was engaged in idolatry; he could develop the sin of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, detect witches and wizards in their proceedings, and point out the true prophets of the Lord. Joshua knew how to detect the man who had stolen the wedge of gold and the Babylonish garment. Michaiah could point out the false spirit by which the four hundred prophets were governed; and if his advice had been taken, many lives would have been spared, (2 Chronicles 18) Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and many other prophets possessed this power. Our Savior, the Apostles, and even the members of the Church were endowed with this gift, for, says Paul, (1 Corinthians 12), "To one is given the gift of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discerning of spirits." All these proceeded from the same Spirit of God, and were the gifts of God. The Ephesian church were enabled by this principle, "to try those that said they were apostles, and were not, and found them liars." (Revelation 2:2.)"

...

False Spirits in the Church

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Four 1839-42, p.213-215)

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has also had its false spirits; and as it is made up of all those different sects professing every variety of opinion, and having been under the influence of so many kinds of spirits, it is not to be wondered at if there should be found among us false spirits.

Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland, and during the absence of the authorities of the Church, many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into, calculated to bring disgrace upon the Church of God, to cause the Spirit of God to be withdrawn, and to uproot and destroy those glorious principles which had been developed for the salvation of the human family. But when the authorities returned, the spirit was made manifest, those members that were exercised with it were tried for their fellowship, and those that would not repent and forsake it were cut off.

At a subsequent period a Shaker spirit was on the point of being introduced, and at another time the Methodist and Presbyterian falling down power, but the spirit was rebuked and put down, and those who would not submit to rule and good order were disfellowshiped. We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted like the Irvingites before alluded to; whereas, there is nothing unnatural in the Spirit of God. A circumstance of this kind took place in Upper Canada, but was rebuked by the presiding Elder; another, a woman near the same place, professed to have the discerning spirits, and began to accuse another sister of things that she was not guilty of, which she said she knew was so by the spirit, but was afterwards proven to be false; she placed herself in the capacity of the "accuser of the brethren," and no person through the discerning of spirits can bring a charge against another, they must be proven guilty by positive evidence, or they stand clear.

There have also been ministering angels in the Church which were of Satan appearing as an angel of light. A sister in the state of New York had a vision, who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods, and angel would appear to her. She went at the appointed time, and saw a glorious personage descending, arrayed in white, with sandy colored hair; he commenced and told her to fear God, and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home, or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth, and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage, and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by, and by his contradicting a former revelation.

We have also had brethren and sisters who have written revelations, and who have started forward to lead this Church. Such was a young boy in Kirtland, Isaac Russell, of Missouri, and Gladden Bishop, and Oliver Olney of Nauvoo. The boy is now living with his parents who have submitted to the laws of the Church. Mr. Russell stayed in Far West, from whence he was to go to the Rocky Mountains, led by three Nephites; but the Nephites never came, and his friends forsook him, all but some of the blood relations, who have since been nearly destroyed by the mob. Mr. Bishop was tried by the High Council, his papers examined, condemned and burned, and he cut off the Church. He acknowledged the justice of the decision, and said "that he now saw his error, for if the had been governed by the revelations given before, he might have known that no man was to write revelations for the Church, but Joseph Smith," and begged to be prayed for, and forgiven by the brethren. Mr. Olney has also been tried by the High Council and disfellowshiped, because he would not have his writings tested by the word of God; evidently proving that he loves darkness rather than light, because his deeds are evil."

Thus you can see not every manifestation is from God, the devil is quite an orator and all I can say is that is the test of this life whether one will accept the true revelations of God or be deceived by the devil or the craftiness of men. Hope this helps.

[TruthSeeker2013]

Of course one must have a testimony of the truth in order to descern and also revelation through the priesthood, the following is quite lengthy and may be offensive to some but it is from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and may help with this thread:

Thus you can see not every manifestation is from God, the devil is quite an orator and all I can say is that is the test of this life whether one will accept the true revelations of God or be deceived by the devil or the craftiness of men. Hope this helps.

This seems to be circular reasoning. It sounds like what you're saying (and what Joseph taught) is this: "If a person feels a spiritual feeling it may or may not be from the holy ghost. The person can discern if the person 1)has a testimony of the truth and/or 2)the spirit tells the person through revelation through the priesthood." So what we have here is the following:

As to number 1, the person must have a testimony to be able to discern, but a testimony comes from the holy ghost, so you have to have feel the holy ghost to have a testimony to be able to tell if what you're feeling is the holy ghost. So how does one know if their spiritual experience is the holy ghost if it's the holy ghost that's supposed to be the tool to discern if it's the holy ghost?

As to number 2, the person must receive revelation from the holy ghost through the priesthood, but one receives revelation from the holy ghost. So one must feel the holy ghost in the form of revelation to know if their spiritual feeling is the holy ghost. Again, how does one know if their spiritual experience is the holy ghost if it's the holy ghost that's supposed to be the tool to discern if it's the holy ghost?

For me, I'm leaning towards what some of the others earlier in the thread have suggested, which is basically, "to each his own." We can only know for ourselves what feels right to us. Maybe God gives seemingly contradictory revelation because he's helping someone on their own unique path which will eventually lead to Him. Maybe people are misled by the devil. But all we can do is go with our own feelings and wish everyone else well in their journey and respect what they are experiencing. (again, I'm not totally decided on this yet but this is the way I'm leaning right now).

[mfbukowski]

For me, I'm leaning towards what some of the others earlier in the thread have suggested, which is basically, "to each his own." We can only know for ourselves what feels right to us. Maybe God gives seemingly contradictory revelation because he's helping someone on their own unique path which will eventually lead to Him. Maybe people are misled by the devil. But all we can do is go with our own feelings and wish everyone else well in their journey and respect what they are experiencing. (again, I'm not totally decided on this yet but this is the way I'm leaning right now).

Sounds good to me.

The key is what we can know about others feelings and "revelations" and that is exactly nothing.

We may judge privately what we think about what might have happened to them, but we have no basis whatsoever to assume that we can know what they have experienced.

Edited June 4, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Stone holm]

This seems to be circular reasoning. It sounds like what you're saying (and what Joseph taught) is this: "If a person feels a spiritual feeling it may or may not be from the holy ghost. The person can discern if the person 1)has a testimony of the truth and/or 2)the spirit tells the person through revelation through the priesthood." So what we have here is the following:

As to number 1, the person must have a testimony to be able to discern, but a testimony comes from the holy ghost, so you have to have feel the holy ghost to have a testimony to be able to tell if what you're feeling is the holy ghost. So how does one know if their spiritual experience is the holy ghost if it's the holy ghost that's supposed to be the tool to discern if it's the holy ghost?

As to number 2, the person must receive revelation from the holy ghost through the priesthood, but one receives revelation from the holy ghost. So one must feel the holy ghost in the form of revelation to know if their spiritual feeling is the holy ghost. Again, how does one know if their spiritual experience is the holy ghost if it's the holy ghost that's supposed to be the tool to discern if it's the holy ghost?

For me, I'm leaning towards what some of the others earlier in the thread have suggested, which is basically, "to each his own." We can only know for ourselves what feels right to us. Maybe God gives seemingly contradictory revelation because he's helping someone on their own unique path which will eventually lead to Him. Maybe people are misled by the devil. But all we can do is go with our own feelings and wish everyone else well in their journey and respect what they are experiencing. (again, I'm not totally decided on this yet but this is the way I'm leaning right now).

There is a certain circularity. Namely we seek a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Holy Ghost will give us the testimony, course if the feeling we get isn't consistent with a testimony of the Book of Mormon then we are being influenced by something other than the Holy Ghost, so we have to start over again. For some people they just have to cut through the circle and decide they are going to believe and after they have made the decision they eventually get a testimony. Its not a perfect system, but it works often enough. For me it was initially sufficient to look around and compare and come to the conclusion -- if this ain't true then I'm not really interested in Christianity because the alternatives are just plain wacko -- so its either Mormonism or Buddhism for me. But eventually I got confirmation, and despite all the poltical idiocy I have to endure from right-wingers in the Church and dispite all kind of things that should have sent me packing, that confirmation has held true..

[TruthSeeker2013]

The key is what we can know about others feelings and "revelations" and that is exactly nothing.

We may judge privately what we think about what might have happened to them, but we have no basis whatsoever to assume that we can know what they have experienced.

Love this. Thanks.

[Storm Rider]

Sounds good to me.

The key is what we can know about others feelings and "revelations" and that is exactly nothing.

We may judge privately what we think about what might have happened to them, but we have no basis whatsoever to assume that we can know what they have experienced.

I disagree. I have always understood that the Holy Spirit is the testifier of all truth and we can know if something is true or not. How many times in the Book of Mormon were individuals mislead by the evil one? How many times were they corrected in their error of belief? Truth is not relative and never has been; if we believe in God we know he will guide us in truth and let us know when we err or we can recognize the error in others.

[Stone holm]

I disagree. I have always understood that the Holy Spirit is the testifier of all truth and we can know if something is true or not. How many times in the Book of Mormon were individuals mislead by the evil one? How many times were they corrected in their error of belief? Truth is not relative and never has been; if we believe in God we know he will guide us in truth and let us know when we err or we can recognize the error in others.

Absolutely correct in standard teachings of the Church, largely debatable in reality since it assumes that there is something wrong with any person who earnestly prays for a testimony of the B of M and comes up with a blank. The Celestial Kingdom may be a black and white world, but the here and now is based on the perception of the truth by individuals which leads to a many hued world.

[Storm Rider]

Absolutely correct in standard teachings of the Church, largely debatable in reality since it assumes that there is something wrong with any person who earnestly prays for a testimony of the B of M and comes up with a blank. The Celestial Kingdom may be a black and white world, but the here and now is based on the perception of the truth by individuals which leads to a many hued world.

PI am not sure how you got to a conclusion that if a LDS believes that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth that there is an assumption there is something wrong if an individual does not get an answer to prayer on the Book of Mormon. The one has nothing to do with the other. The Holy Spirit either testifies of truth or not has nothing to do with when a testimony is given or that an individual will actually listen or hear with the Spirit testifies. I don't believe that all people who follow the Holy Spirit will be or are LDS - I completely reject such a proposition. Someone who follows the Spirit will be found in all religions Christian and non-Christian alike. Being influenced by the Spirit does not guarantee that we know all truth and will follow all truth; it only means we are influenced by the Spirit and are trying our best to follow. Let's not create connections where none exist.

[Stone holm]

PI am not sure how you got to a conclusion that if a LDS believes that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth that there is an assumption there is something wrong if an individual does not get an answer to prayer on the Book of Mormon. The one has nothing to do with the other. The Holy Spirit either testifies of truth or not has nothing to do with when a testimony is given or that an individual will actually listen or hear with the Spirit testifies. I don't believe that all people who follow the Holy Spirit will be or are LDS - I completely reject such a proposition. Someone who follows the Spirit will be found in all religions Christian and non-Christian alike. Being influenced by the Spirit does not guarantee that we know all truth and will follow all truth; it only means we are influenced by the Spirit and are trying our best to follow. Let's not create connections where none exist.

My apologies. I agree with your position as stated in this quote. I do believe, however, that there can be a certain circularity in LDS teachings on the matter as we expect to receive a confirmatory witness, but that witness must be consistent with our teachings or else it is rejected because it does not confirm our teachings.

[Storm Rider]

My apologies. I agree with your position as stated in this quote. I do believe, however, that there can be a certain circularity in LDS teachings on the matter as we expect to receive a confirmatory witness, but that witness must be consistent with our teachings or else it is rejected because it does not confirm our teachings.

PI don't think you and I have any degree of disagreement so much as different words to describe the situation and making sure we are both aligned on the same context. There are many LDS that misconstrue or misunderstand the meaning or purpose of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Too often they make the assumption that there is no truth elsewhere or that the Spirit only talks to LDS. I hope this is a minority of members; regardless it is reflective of an immature, or a very narrow view of God and his working with humanity. Joseph was very clear and scriptures support that truth is found everywhere and we claim all truth as our own i.e. when we find it we claim it, we seek to live it.

[mfbukowski]

I disagree. I have always understood that the Holy Spirit is the testifier of all truth and we can know if something is true or not. How many times in the Book of Mormon were individuals mislead by the evil one? How many times were they corrected in their error of belief? Truth is not relative and never has been; if we believe in God we know he will guide us in truth and let us know when we err or we can recognize the error in others.

If you actually read the post, you may notice that the word "truth" doesn't appear anywhere.

Are you saying you have the power to read minds?

[Stone holm]

If you actually read the post, you may notice that the word "truth" doesn't appear anywhere.

Are you saying you have the power to read minds?

Where did he say that?

[mfbukowski]

Where did he say that?

...if we believe in God we know he will guide us in truth and let us know when we err or we can recognize the error in others.