Are Our Spiritual Experiences Superior?

[Storm Rider]

Is the pope the pope for 1.5 billion Catholics? I would say he is and I am not even Catholic. As a Catholic if I prayed about it and asked God to tell me if he is the pope I suspect I would feel pretty good about it at the direction of the Spirit. I will have too choke on Warren Jeffs; I am sorry but he just freaks me out. He always looks like a wet noodle and does not show up as someone that knows anything. There was a Muslim cleric in Palestine that dressed in white, but he was another one that gave me the creeps just looking at him; he personified evil to me. When I read what he taught it was confirmed for me that he was not a servant of Allah, but he worked in very dark areas. In other words, I think there is more spiritual interaction than just the Holy Spirit and we each have to learn to be discerning. I have said before that Pope John Paul II was a much a prophet to me as the President of the Church. He was as much a disciple of Jesus Christ as anyone I have ever known and he was the pope of the Catholic Church. I think too many people make leaps of logic and wild assumptions when it comes to the Spirit rather than learning to listen to Spirit and hearing his guidance. They may receive or sense that wonderful presence that the Spirit gives, but they misunderstand the guidance. I think this is applicable some situations, but certainly not all situations. I also think many of us misunderstand the scriptures and make wild assumptions about truth. There is only one source of truth; not two or three; just one. All truth comes from God and where it is found God is present. If we believe this then how in world can we believe that God does not talk to others or that God does not guide them? Why would anyone conclude that the LDS Church has a corner on the market for truth? Guys, we have the truths of the restoration; we are promised that there will be many other truths revealed to us at many different times. We are a people that should be expecting to find truths in the world and expecting to hear about new truths coming forth. If we are sitting on a backside thinking that we have it all; we are foolish and deaf servants of our Father and need to wake up.

[Stone holm]

Is the pope the pope for 1.5 billion Catholics? I would say he is and I am not even Catholic. As a Catholic if I prayed about it and asked God to tell me if he is the pope I suspect I would feel pretty good about it at the direction of the Spirit. I will have too choke on Warren Jeffs; I am sorry but he just freaks me out. He always looks like a wet noodle and does not show up as someone that knows anything. There was a Muslim cleric in Palestine that dressed in white, but he was another one that gave me the creeps just looking at him; he personified evil to me. When I read what he taught it was confirmed for me that he was not a servant of Allah, but he worked in very dark areas. In other words, I think there is more spiritual interaction than just the Holy Spirit and we each have to learn to be discerning. I have said before that Pope John Paul II was a much a prophet to me as the President of the Church. He was as much a disciple of Jesus Christ as anyone I have ever known and he was the pope of the Catholic Church. I think too many people make leaps of logic and wild assumptions when it comes to the Spirit rather than learning to listen to Spirit and hearing his guidance. They may receive or sense that wonderful presence that the Spirit gives, but they misunderstand the guidance. I think this is applicable some situations, but certainly not all situations. I also think many of us misunderstand the scriptures and make wild assumptions about truth. There is only one source of truth; not two or three; just one. All truth comes from God and where it is found God is present. If we believe this then how in world can we believe that God does not talk to others or that God does not guide them? Why would anyone conclude that the LDS Church has a corner on the market for truth? Guys, we have the truths of the restoration; we are promised that there will be many other truths revealed to us at many different times. We are a people that should be expecting to find truths in the world and expecting to hear about new truths coming forth. If we are sitting on a backside thinking that we have it all; we are foolish and deaf servants of our Father and need to wake up.

Ah, considerable truth here, but not sure that it is the official line. I will give you a bump for this though.

[CV75]

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

Who is to say that what either is saying describes a spiritual experience, and/or is correct? Each can only speak for himself. The FLDS member is only saying that he knows by the Spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet. And the LDS member is only saying he knows by the Spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet. The important thing is what the Spirit says that He said to each, and that the Spirit knows what each really knows by Him.

This was an early lesson for Joseph Smith: “I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

Joseph Smith did not go about second-guessing others’ spiritual claims, but only took responsibility for what to do about what he knew by the Spirit: “I had now got my mind satisfied so far as the sectarian world was concerned—that it was not my duty to join with any of them, but to continue as I was until further directed. I had found the testimony of James to be true—that a man who lacked wisdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be upbraided.”

[Jude2]

I think the Spirit will testify to the light and truth one is able or willing to receive.

[mfbukowski]

I sense sarcasm, but I have indeed heard this argument before, haha.

My actual argument you won't answer- you won't answer Kevin, but this does you keep asking the same question you asked in the OP.

Why start a thread if all you are going to do is keep repeating the same question without responding to answers? It is a waste of time.

[Calm]

It sounds like what you're saying is that our spiritual experiences telling us the mormon church is true are correct and others' spiritual experiences contradicting this are incorrect for one reason or another.

Actually it sounds like to me he is saying something along the lines of why worry about what others are hearing from the Spirit, it is a fulltime occupation to develop your own relationship and understanding of what the Spirit is saying to you so if you start putting effort into judging whether others have it right or not, you are wasting valuable time and effort in a spiritual exercise that is ultimately meaningless (since it is impossible to know exactly what others are experiencing spiritually in order to judge it, let alone whether or not God has given us the calling to stand in that office of judgment to begin with). Edited May 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Actually it sounds like to me he is saying something along the lines of why worry about what others are hearing from the Spirit, it is a fulltime occupation to develop your own relationship and understanding of what the Spirit is saying to you so if you start putting effort into judging whether others have it right or not, you are wasting valuable time and effort in a spiritual exercise that is ultimately meaningless (since it is impossible to know exactly what others are experiencing spiritually in order to judge it, let alone whether or not God has given us the calling to stand in that office of judgment to begin with).

How come you say stuff so good?

[Calm]

How come you say stuff so good?

Lots of practice in having to correct saying things so bad.

[TruthSeeker2013]

My actual argument you won't answer- you won't answer Kevin, but this does you keep asking the same question you asked in the OP.

Why start a thread if all you are going to do is keep repeating the same question without responding to answers? It is a waste of time.

My actual argument you won't answer- you won't answer Kevin, but this does you keep asking the same question you asked in the OP.

Why start a thread if all you are going to do is keep repeating the same question without responding to answers? It is a waste of time.

Sorry for not directly replying to your post, I tried to address it along with some others and should have used multiquote but was on my phone. My response to your post is that you're pointing out my point. I agree that spiritual experiences are not measurable or scientifically comparable, and that's why I questioned how one could say that mormon spiritual experiences about the truthfulness of the mormon church are superior to other's spritual experiences about the truthfulness of their leaders/churches/untruthfulness of our church. I agree it is pointless to argue about whose spiritual experiences are correct and whose are not (or at least I'm exploring this belief), but it seems that this is not the church's position. The church teaches that we are the one true church and one can know that through spiritual experiences, so I assumed that if someone else has a spiritual experience that our church is not true or that their prophet/leader is God's chosen leader on earth then the church would consider that spiritual experience to be wrong/misunderstood/etc. BUT, a few of the comments opined that perhaps it was just a step along those persons' paths and they are learning in different ways and ultimately (in this life or the next) will come to the full knowledge and join our church. In other words, we do not understand God's path for everyone and everyone's paths are differently, so perhaps people feeling seemingly contradictory spiritual experiences is not an indication of some of them being false, but simply of God working in different people's lives in different ways and slowly drawing them to the same conclusion of eventually joining the one and only true church. I stated that I hadn't thought of that before and I think that's a great answer (though I'm still working through it and don't have a firm opinion one way or the other, yet).

Again, I apologize for not responding to you directly.

As for Kevin's link, I started to read it but haven't finished. It's 25 or so pages and I'm hoping on and off of the forum as I have time and reading his paper as well, so I'll eventually finish it and be able to reply.

Thanks.

[TruthSeeker2013]

Actually it sounds like to me he is saying something along the lines of why worry about what others are hearing from the Spirit, it is a fulltime occupation to develop your own relationship and understanding of what the Spirit is saying to you so if you start putting effort into judging whether others have it right or not, you are wasting valuable time and effort in a spiritual exercise that is ultimately meaningless (since it is impossible to know exactly what others are experiencing spiritually in order to judge it, let alone whether or not God has given us the calling to stand in that office of judgment to begin with).

I see, thanks. I guess the reason I worry about it is because I'm not presuming that the "spiritual experiences" I think I've had are necessarily spiritual experiences. To determine if they are, I've studied what the church teaches is an answer from God/spiritual experience and determined that I have indeed felt those things both when inquiring about the truth of something and sometimes even not when inquiring. But I see others around me expressing the fact that they've felt those same feelings with seemingly contradictory conclusions. So I naturally wonder if I felt/interpreted the feeling right or they're right, or we're both right. I guess I just don't automatically assume that what feels like a spiritual experience is necessarily a spiritual experience if there are others who express feeling the same thing about something opposite of what I've felt.

What feels right to me from my own study and from reading the comments in this thread is that maybe 1)all people are finding their own truth and their own path to God (though I think the church teaches otherwise), or 2)we don't know the path God is taking them on but it will eventually lead to our church even if their spiritual experiences seem contradictory to our spiritual experiences, or 3)the spiritual experiences they think they're feeling are not actually spiritual experiences. I'm not sure which of these are correct (or if something altogether different is correct).

[mfbukowski]

Sorry for not directly replying to your post, I tried to address it along with some others and should have used multiquote but was on my phone. My response to your post is that you're pointing out my point. I agree that spiritual experiences are not measurable or scientifically comparable, and that's why I questioned how one could say that mormon spiritual experiences about the truthfulness of the mormon church are superior to other's spritual experiences about the truthfulness of their leaders/churches/untruthfulness of our church. I agree it is pointless to argue about whose spiritual experiences are correct and whose are not (or at least I'm exploring this belief), but it seems that this is not the church's position. The church teaches that we are the one true church and one can know that through spiritual experiences, so I assumed that if someone else has a spiritual experience that our church is not true or that their prophet/leader is God's chosen leader on earth then the church would consider that spiritual experience to be wrong/misunderstood/etc. BUT, a few of the comments opined that perhaps it was just a step along those persons' paths and they are learning in different ways and ultimately (in this life or the next) will come to the full knowledge and join our church. In other words, we do not understand God's path for everyone and everyone's paths are differently, so perhaps people feeling seemingly contradictory spiritual experiences is not an indication of some of them being false, but simply of God working in different people's lives in different ways and slowly drawing them to the same conclusion of eventually joining the one and only true church. I stated that I hadn't thought of that before and I think that's a great answer (though I'm still working through it and don't have a firm opinion one way or the other, yet).

Again, I apologize for not responding to you directly.

That's great!

No problem there- it was just that you STILL asked this, as if you learned nothing in the thread:

Yes, so when an FLDS member says they know by the spirit that Warren Jeffs is a prophet and a mormon member say they know by the spirit that Joseph Smith is a prophet, whose spiritual experience is correct? Or is God contradicting himself?

So I was confused.

As for Kevin's link, I started to read it but haven't finished. It's 25 or so pages and I'm hoping on and off of the forum as I have time and reading his paper as well, so I'll eventually finish it and be able to reply.

He gave two links- I was talking about the second one, which essentially says that as one grows intellectually, one becomes more tolerant of ambiguity. http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100469/Perry%20Scheme.pdf

Edited May 27, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

My opinion....based on what church leaders have said in the past, especially JS about what we learn after death (see my signature)...is that there is a lot more to experience spiritually then we are presented with in this world and the destination that we are all heading for (at least those that are sincerely seeking the Divine) is way beyond anything we can imagine at this point, even for LDS. To claim that we have the truth and all will become "Mormons" is an oversimplifaction of the future, imo. LDS will be something much beyond "Mormon" by the time God is finished with us so saying that is the ultimate destination is just plain silly.

Edited May 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

As I have said before, if one is a homeless addict living in a cardboard box on skid row, and there are no Mormons around who care, and the only ones around to bring him to Christ is the Salvation Army, do you think that God is going to wait for some guys in white shirts to show up, or would/could he give that person a revelation to join the Salvation Army?

In a nanosecond!

Might he someday receive a similar revelation to join the LDS church at a more appropriate time? Of course.

And would those two revelations be in conflict? Not at all!

[omni]

I see, thanks. I guess the reason I worry about it is because I'm not presuming that the "spiritual experiences" I think I've had are necessarily spiritual experiences. To determine if they are, I've studied what the church teaches is an answer from God/spiritual experience and determined that I have indeed felt those things both when inquiring about the truth of something and sometimes even not when inquiring. But I see others around me expressing the fact that they've felt those same feelings with seemingly contradictory conclusions. So I naturally wonder if I felt/interpreted the feeling right or they're right, or we're both right. I guess I just don't automatically assume that what feels like a spiritual experience is necessarily a spiritual experience if there are others who express feeling the same thing about something opposite of what I've felt.

What feels right to me from my own study and from reading the comments in this thread is that maybe 1)all people are finding their own truth and their own path to God (though I think the church teaches otherwise), or 2)we don't know the path God is taking them on but it will eventually lead to our church even if their spiritual experiences seem contradictory to our spiritual experiences, or 3)the spiritual experiences they think they're feeling are not actually spiritual experiences. I'm not sure which of these are correct (or if something altogether different is correct).

I don't mean to complicate things for you even more, but have you ever felt the spirit in a setting in which you shouldn't have? Since my mission I've felt the spirit more outside of church or the temple than I have inside them. I've felt it watching replays of John Stockton hitting a last second three to send the Jazz to the '97 NBA finals, reading non spiritual books, and a number of movies. In fact one of the times I've felt it strongest came at a very poignant moment in a rated "R" movie (hey wait a second, that's not supposed to happen!). Was the spirit I felt on my mission just a natural process of my body releasing endorphins, or was it a manifestation from God? Still trying to figure it out...

Edited May 27, 2013 by omni

[bubbachen]

My 2-1/2 cents:

As a former evangelical anti and later convert to the LDS church, The Spirit does of absolute truths, but the individual filters the testimony through personal opinion, religious upbringing, degree of obedience to The Light, and intellect. Some of us just aren't able to accept the truth. And what is the truth? Intellectual or philosophical knowledge ABOUT Christ? Was He raised from the dead? Is He a 6 ft tall northern European supermodel? Do you want to know things about Him or do you want to know HIM? To know Him is to obey the Him, obey the Light within us. If one reads the Bible carefully, one will see that Christ came not to straighten up our opinions about Him but to ask us to follow Him, and He convinces us to do so by love.

I think some will never be able to accept the true witness of the Spirit while still in the flesh, ie. a Muslim born and raised in Iran. But if he follows the Light given him, he may be more able to experience and accept what God wants him to know in the hereafter. That's one of the many beautiful aspects of the restored Gospel.

[Stone holm]

I wonder sometimes if individuals have roles to play in this Creation that for some reason are best played out outside the Church. What causes me to wonder about that is all the wonderful ethical people who adamantly refuse or reject the Church but in many ways conduct themselves in a superior manner to members. However, such thoughts seem a bit heretical, and I am sure my ultimate Earhly Authority would disagree. She would insist that everyone needs to be in the Church reading every Ensign Article, etc etc.

[ERayR]

I wonder sometimes if individuals have roles to play in this Creation that for some reason are best played out outside the Church. What causes me to wonder about that is all the wonderful ethical people who adamantly refuse or reject the Church but in many ways conduct themselves in a superior manner to members. However, such thoughts seem a bit heretical, and I am sure my ultimate Earhly Authority would disagree. She would insist that everyone needs to be in the Church reading every Ensign Article, etc etc.

In case you missed it in one of these thread I made the observation that this earth life experience is not a pass/fail but rather a sifting and sorting. Not everybody can be an every article Ensign reader.

[Stone holm]

In case you missed it in one of these thread I made the observation that this earth life experience is not a pass/fail but rather a sifting and sorting. Not everybody can be an every article Ensign reader.

Yeah, well maybe sometime they can put that in an Ensign Article and then she will take it as gospel....

[mfbukowski]

You know how some can carry a tune and others can't?

Some are "religiously unmusical".

But guess what? We will all get it eventually- that's the beauty of Mormonism

[Calm]

She would insist that everyone needs to be in the Church reading every Ensign Article, etc etc.

Then how sad for all those people who existed before the Ensign came into being...

[Stone holm]

Then how sad for all those people who existed before the Ensign came into being...

Yes they had to be satisfied with listening to GAs in the flesh.

[pmccombs1]

We are promised in Moroni that we will receive a confirmation if we pray with real intent, so why do only some receive it? This observation along with the fact that many others have received spiritual confirmation of things in direct contradiction to what we teach leaves me to believe that it's not as reliable as we are told.

Mormonism, more than most Christian denominations, is based strongly in narratives about who and what we are. All of History is a grand play, and we are in the thick of it. This is story-book religion, and you have to be able to enter into it and feel yourself part of it. It isn't just a set of rules or a statement of right-belief, but a varied and rich tapestry that unites and gives meaning to everything. There are a lot of plausibility structures built up around Mormon teaching, not least of which is the sincerity, candor, and matter-of-fact certainty with which the truest believers relate its stories. Only when you accept these things as plausible, and weave yourself into it, can you receive the witness that is promised.

Now, some people are able to enter into narratives with great facility, while others are skeptical and resistant. Some are swayed by the stories that others tell, being in awe of authority; others require their own stories. So, part of the formula is "humility" to accept authority. But the very humble are perhaps susceptible to confusion, for they will receive strong witness of every story told by any authority while the arrogant appear beyond all feeling--all, that is, but their own. They fear shame or mistrust others.

I once witnessed a demonstration of hypnosis. It began as the hypnotist related a story that commenced with a certain injunctive that I summarize thus: "Fear not, only believe." During the narration, we were encouraged to forget ourselves and our fears. We were invited to relax, to listen, and to believe. "Step into this story; see it play out before you. This is reality." In his story, the hypnotist poured warm honey over the clasped hands of his audience, and when the story ended, those who could not separate their "sticky" hands were invited to take a place on the stand. They became the subjects of the most fascinating show I have ever seen. When told to see, they saw. When told to feel, they felt. They wept tears of joy and of sorrow. Some of them forgot the number four and got into the most perplexing mathematical difficulties. They could touch, smell, see, and hear the stories of this man who made fantastic new realities. In the end, they were given power to achieve goals or overcome difficulties. I don't know how that worked out for them, but I do have relatives and acquaintances who have indeed been able to change their lives through the help of hypnotherapy. Now it is common practice for therapists to help patients "change their stories." Words are powerful medicine, but they can only work when we find them at least plausible (not even necessarily desirable, though desire certainly helps) and are willing enough, or desperate enough, to trust someone else.

(For the record, the Chuch discourages its members from participating in recreational hypnosis)

[Stone holm]

Mormonism, more than most Christian denominations, is based strongly in narratives about who and what we are. All of History is a grand play, and we are in the thick of it. This is story-book religion, and you have to be able to enter into it and feel yourself part of it. It isn't just a set of rules or a statement of right-belief, but a varied and rich tapestry that unites and gives meaning to everything. There are a lot of plausibility structures built up around Mormon teaching, not least of which is the sincerity, candor, and matter-of-fact certainty with which the truest believers relate its stories. Only when you accept these things as plausible, and weave yourself into it, can you receive the witness that is promised.

Now, some people are able to enter into narratives with great facility, while others are skeptical and resistant. Some are swayed by the stories that others tell, being in awe of authority; others require their own stories. So, part of the formula is "humility" to accept authority. But the very humble are perhaps susceptible to confusion, for they will receive strong witness of every story told by any authority while the arrogant appear beyond all feeling--all, that is, but their own. They fear shame or mistrust others.

I once witnessed a demonstration of hypnosis. It began as the hypnotist related a story that commenced with a certain injunctive that I summarize thus: "Fear not, only believe." During the narration, we were encouraged to forget ourselves and our fears. We were invited to relax, to listen, and to believe. "Step into this story; see it play out before you. This is reality." In his story, the hypnotist poured warm honey over the clasped hands of his audience, and when the story ended, those who could not separate their "sticky" hands were invited to take a place on the stand. They became the subjects of the most fascinating show I have ever seen. When told to see, they saw. When told to feel, they felt. They wept tears of joy and of sorrow. Some of them forgot the number four and got into the most perplexing mathematical difficulties. They could touch, smell, see, and hear the stories of this man who made fantastic new realities. In the end, they were given power to achieve goals or overcome difficulties. I don't know how that worked out for them, but I do have relatives and acquaintances who have indeed been able to change their lives through the help of hypnotherapy. Now it is common practice for therapists to help patients "change their stories." Words are powerful medicine, but they can only work when we find them at least plausible (not even necessarily desirable, though desire certainly helps) and are willing enough, or desperate enough, to trust someone else.

(For the record, the Chuch discourages its members from participating in recreational hypnosis)

Very interesting.

[mfbukowski]

I once witnessed a demonstration of hypnosis. It began as the hypnotist related a story that commenced with a certain injunctive that I summarize thus: "Fear not, only believe." During the narration, we were encouraged to forget ourselves and our fears. We were invited to relax, to listen, and to believe. "Step into this story; see it play out before you. This is reality." In his story, the hypnotist poured warm honey over the clasped hands of his audience, and when the story ended, those who could not separate their "sticky" hands were invited to take a place on the stand. They became the subjects of the most fascinating show I have ever seen. When told to see, they saw. When told to feel, they felt. They wept tears of joy and of sorrow. Some of them forgot the number four and got into the most perplexing mathematical difficulties. They could touch, smell, see, and hear the stories of this man who made fantastic new realities. In the end, they were given power to achieve goals or overcome difficulties. I don't know how that worked out for them, but I do have relatives and acquaintances who have indeed been able to change their lives through the help of hypnotherapy. Now it is common practice for therapists to help patients "change their stories." Words are powerful medicine, but they can only work when we find them at least plausible (not even necessarily desirable, though desire certainly helps) and are willing enough, or desperate enough, to trust someone else.

(For the record, the Chuch discourages its members from participating in recreational hypnosis)

Which is why it is so important to be careful about what we believe - because imaterial thoughts are quickly transformed into material realities.

You can call this intelligence "God" or you can call the intelligence "Life". The point is to recognize that the universe is made up of more than matter and energy - it is also made up of information (read through the holographic universe ideas), and of coarse, if you understand a little of the information theories, you will recognize that information does not exist except there is another entity - intelligence - to understand, transmit, and produce it... Intellignce is a real entity, a creative entity that is responsible for arranging atoms as surely as atomic potentials can arange them. Intelligence is the stuff of life... "that which acts, and that which is acted upon", intelligence is the part of the universe that is able to act.

I actually think it is more than just the brain - plants don't have a brain, but they do have a spirit. Our entire system is an elecrochemical powerhouse - it's not just our brain that produces our mental life - see this for instance:

Our emotional mood / disposition is controlled by more than just our brain - it's controlled by our entire body.

We know what we become... walk a mile in another's shoes. Someone once asked me if the only way to know God was to become God, I think they might have had a point.

[pmccombs1]

...Someone once asked me if the only way to know God was to become God, I think they might have had a point.

Eloquent insight from changed. I'll have to remember that one.

Becoming God... now that is a superior spiritual experience!