Apostasy

[Anijen]

Hi folks.

I just read the "Junta" thread (which I felt was funny), and read the thread on NAMI and what has it done since the coup. I wanted to say I do wish for a more of a one heart Zion minded approach, however as a realist I can see that will not be likely.

My point of opening this thread is on apostasy. I have personally gone through such a stage in my life (a very long time ago). That journey has become the biggest regret in my life because of missing so much. On a personal note it has since my own journey of apostasy and my tough, long road back. I have learned a few things. One thing I have learned is the cliche of "I wouldn't have changed a thing" I tell you what brethren and sisters if I had a time machine I certainly would change a lot of things in my life. I know, I know that the things I learned from them have been good for me and a humbling experience, having said that it doesn't mean if I had that wonderful time contraption I still wouldn't change some of those choices I made.

One of the things I learned is you can not in no way gain a testimony through looking through the lens of science (I hope Kerry you will someday realize this), although it is very possible to lose a testimony looking only through a scientific perspective.

What is very very very (I know, redundancy alert) needed is the spiritual path in gaining a testimony, after all we are in search of spiritual enlightenment. I can not emphasize enough the importance of prayer, scripture study, and service (with a large emphasis on prayer). I love to study and learn and it has become my hobby in life. I will never (again) let the things I learn cross contaminate the sacred or spiritual things, no matter how contrary they might appear. I fully accept the idea of men living before Adam, a non global flood, etc things that might otherwise be contrary to some.

One thing I can not nor will not deny (ever again) is the loving tolerance and patience a merciful Father in Heaven has for me. I am thankful that in hisomniscient knowledge that he saw me becoming even stronger than I have ever been and has not given up even when I did.

I too believe in the literal history of the Book of Mormon, and no Kerry I do not believe religion is the cause of wars and all things evil. To all who have might have trickled out of the church and have lost their testimony I say come back.

There are still many more wonderful spiritual experiences and growth that a loving God has in store for you.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Anijen

[Calm]

One of the things I learned is you can not in know way gain a testimony through looking through the lens of science (I hope Kerry you will someday realize this), although it is very possible to lose a testimony looking only through a scientific perspective.

I think any one dimensional approach to belief yields a weak foundation and easily toppled structure. Strength comes from embracing all forms of learning available to us.

[Glenn101]

I think any one dimensional approach to belief yields a weak foundation and easily toppled structure. Strength comes from embracing all forms of learning available to us.

I disagree with that a bit. A completely spiritual approach to belief can (and does) provide a foundation for many that is not easily toppled. I am not talking about blind faith, but faith produced through indelible spiritual experiences.

Glenn

[Libs]

Anijen, thank you for sharing that with us. It's always nice to hear that someone has traveled far afield and then made the journey back.

I tend to agree more with Calmoriah, about a multi-dimensional approach to learning and belief. But, if the other works for you, I wouldn't argue with success.

It's also very nice to hear you ask, those members who have left the church, to come back. I know that so many inactives feel unwelcome in the church, while struggling with certain issues. But, it's kind of a catch 22 for a lot of us. Not feeling comfortable in the church, while struggling with certain issues....and, yet, not really being able to fully resolve them, outside of the church.

Very nice post....thank you!

[Sethbag]

One of the things I learned is you can not in no way gain a testimony through looking through the lens of science (I hope Kerry you will someday realize this), although it is very possible to lose a testimony looking only through a scientific perspective.

My nomination for understatement of the year.

I too believe in the literal history of the Book of Mormon, and no Kerry I do not believe religion is the cause of wars and all things evil. To all who have might have trickled out of the church and have lost their testimony I say come back.

Apostasy is underrated in the church. If it's not literally true, I have no interest in "gaining a testimony" of it. It's pretty freaking obviously not literally true.

There are still many more wonderful spiritual experiences and growth that a loving God has in store for you.

I would say nearly the same thing, though without the "spirit" and the God, about the "outside" world, ie: the other 7 billion people on the planet who aren't Mormons.

[BCSpace]

One of the things I learned is you can not in no way gain a testimony through looking through the lens of science (I hope Kerry you will someday realize this), although it is very possible to lose a testimony looking only through a scientific perspective.

I disagree. Science is part of what attracts me to the LDS Church. Scripturally, we accept all science.(D&C 88:79, etc.). I've always believed it is possible to gain/improve a testimony from the logical side.

I fully accept the idea of men living before Adam, a non global flood, etc things that might otherwise be contrary to some.

......

I too believe in the literal history of the Book of Mormon

Me too.

[Calm]

I disagree with that a bit. A completely spiritual approach to belief can (and does) provide a foundation for many that is not easily toppled. I am not talking about blind faith, but faith produced through indelible spiritual experiences.

Glenn

You do not think that it is essential that someone applies their belief to their day to day life, what I would call a practical, concrete exercise of belief? I suspect we agree, you just understand my language in a different way than I do.

[brightpath]

Science is an enemy to God. We should not accept all science. Science is mans wisdom! Gods ways are not mans ways and mans ways are not Gods ways. Science is Gentile thinking that tries to explain away things like homosexuality, Indians in America, etc...

[rodheadlee]

My nomination for understatement of the year.

Apostasy is underrated in the church. If it's not literally true, I have no interest in "gaining a testimony" of it. It's pretty freaking obviously not literally true.

I would say nearly the same thing, though without the "spirit" and the God, about the "outside" world, ie: the other 7 billion people on the planet who aren't Mormons.

CFR the red portion.

[thews]

I disagree. Science is part of what attracts me to the LDS Church.

Please elaborate. How does science support your testimony?

[Buzzard]

Please elaborate. How does science support your testimony?

I'll let BC Space provide his own answer, but as for me, when I behold the wonderful complexity of life, I see the hand of God. When I scramble to the top of a mountain ridge and look out on the world spread at my feet, I see the artistry of God. When I hug my family members, I feel the eternal love of God.

When people argue about whether the earth is ten thousand or ten billion years old, I think of the scripture where God tells us that time is only to man, but that all things are present to him. Relativity teaches us that time can be manipulated, so what is the issue with "time" being one eternal round?

And on a much more mundane level, as I have studied and read the Book of Mormon, I not only feel the power of it's principles, but am utterly, totally convinced by the evidence contained within it's pages that it is of ancient and Middle Eastern origin. And once convinced of that, everything else falls into place. Keystone indeed!

[mfbukowski]

"I am not disillusioned because I was never illusioned in the first place"

[Damien the Leper]

I don't think I could or want to go back to the LDS church because my relationship with it and its members is so much better from the outside. In some ways, I think I make a better Mormon by not being a member.

[longview]

I don't think I could or want to go back to the LDS church because my relationship with it and its members is so much better from the outside. In some ways, I think I make a better Mormon by not being a member.

Sounds like you are in a "mental rut". Your perspective on "existence" is not the best to be had (neither is it for any of us mere mortals, corruptible beings). God's perspectives trump yours. Humble yourself and return to the fold of the Shepherd. God bless.

[Mark Beesley]

I disagree. . . . I've always believed it is possible to gain . . . a testimony from the logical side.

I've edited your response down to the essentials of what I found interesting.

What, precisely, does it mean to get a testimony? Certainly you can gain knowledge from the study of science. But knowledge is not a testimony. Are you saying that the Lord will witness truth to you through the study of science? If so, then I agree that science can lead to gaining or strengthening testimony.

[Damien the Leper]

Sounds like you are in a "mental rut". Your perspective on "existence" is not the best to be had (neither is it for any of us mere mortals, corruptible beings). God's perspectives trump yours. Humble yourself and return to the fold of the Shepherd. God bless.

How kindly disrespectful of you! You aren't new but you haven't participated much and so I will give you this one free pass. I'm not a member any longer because I no longer believe many of the truth claims of the LDS. I am not an anti-Mormon by any means and I hope that I have done a good job of demonstrating this.

Your "Humble yourself and fall in line" attitude is unwelcome. Get to know me better before you start spitting this slop.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Valentinus

[Sethbag]

I've edited your response down to the essentials of what I found interesting.

What, precisely, does it mean to get a testimony? Certainly you can gain knowledge from the study of science. But knowledge is not a testimony. Are you saying that the Lord will witness truth to you through the study of science? If so, then I agree that science can lead to gaining or strengthening testimony.

Knowledge is indeed not a testimony. Knowledge is better than a testimony.

[Sethbag]

CFR the red portion. [the red portion was me saying the church is obviously not true - Sethbag]

Hit up Mormonthink and do some reading.

Of course I'm pretty sure you're familiar with a lot of this stuff. You're just trying to "gotcha" me.

Ok, though. The church is obviously not true because it's pretty obvious Joseph Smith just made things up, it's not at all clear that any of his more substantive claims, such as to have had hands laid upon him by resurrected or "translated" beings to confer authority on him from the Creator of the Universe, involve actual occurrences or are in fact later inventions designed to bolster his influence over his followers. Supposedly ancient scripture allegedly translated by Joseph Smith appears to have been of modern invention, etc.

Btw, I realize that it's not obvious to you that the church isn't true. Just like it's not obvious to JWs that their church isn't true either. It's pretty obvious that Lord Xenu was a figment of L. Ron Hubbard's imagination, but try telling that to Tom Cruise. There's a reason for this pattern, and it's actually quite interesting.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Sethbag

[volgadon]

Hit up Mormonthink and do some reading.

Of course I'm pretty sure you're familiar with a lot of this stuff. You're just trying to "gotcha" me.

Ok, though. The church is obviously not true because it's pretty obvious Joseph Smith just made things up, it's not at all clear that any of his more substantive claims, such as to have had hands laid upon him by resurrected or "translated" beings to confer authority on him from the Creator of the Universe, involve actual occurrences or are in fact later inventions designed to bolster his influence over his followers. Supposedly ancient scripture allegedly translated by Joseph Smith appears to have been of modern invention, etc.

Btw, I realize that it's not obvious to you that the church isn't true. Just like it's not obvious to JWs that their church isn't true either. It's pretty obvious that Lord Xenu was a figment of L. Ron Hubbard's imagination, but try telling that to Tom Cruise. There's a reason for this pattern, and it's actually quite interesting.

It is ok, it obviously isn't obvious to you (tautology is fun) that your view here is obviously weak, subjective bunk.

[Sethbag]

It is ok, it obviously isn't obvious to you (tautology is fun) that your view here is obviously weak, subjective bunk.

I fully appreciate that you think so, and that you might even be right, and in fact our differing viewpoints on the matter just demonstrate the complexity of the subject, ie: what it means when people are certain of their position.

For example, put a hard core JW, a die-hard muslim, a partisan Catholic, a believing Southern Baptist, and you into a room. It's pretty clear that the five of you will experience the sensation of 100% surety and confidence in the correctness of your religious beliefs, and that at least four of you, and quite possibly all five, are in fact wrong.

Why is it so apparently easy to become convinced of the correctness of one's beliefs despite their actual wrongness? What does it mean? And what introspection should the realization of this phenomenon trigger in each individual?

I think this is a big deal, actually. The biggest, really.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Sethbag

[Nofear]

"I am not disillusioned because I was never illusioned in the first place"

This made me smile. It reminded my of the TED talk On Being Wrong. People readily admit that others believe plenty of things that are wrong. But ask them what they believe is wrong and they come up at a loss for words.

"Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said 'one can't believe impossible things.'

'I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

[Kenngo1969]

.... Apostasy is underrated in the church. If it's not literally true, I have no interest in "gaining a testimony" of it. It's pretty freaking obviously not literally true. ...

And, as we all know, once Sethbag speaks, the thinking has been done! (Thanks for the best laugh of the day! )

Edited February 14, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Sethbag]

Hopefully when Sethbag speaks, Sethbag's thinking has been done. I realize that's not always the case, but I'm working on it.

[Kenngo1969]

Hit up Mormonthink and do some reading.

Of course I'm pretty sure you're familiar with a lot of this stuff. You're just trying to "gotcha" me.

Ok, though. The church is obviously not true because it's pretty obvious Joseph Smith just made things up, it's not at all clear that any of his more substantive claims, such as to have had hands laid upon him by resurrected or "translated" beings to confer authority on him from the Creator of the Universe, involve actual occurrences or are in fact later inventions designed to bolster his influence over his followers. Supposedly ancient scripture allegedly translated by Joseph Smith appears to have been of modern invention, etc. ...

Either the enormous force of Joseph Smith's personal charisma was enough to summon every ounce of belief from his followers despite the enormous personal sacrifice such belief entailed, or he somehow was able to envelop them (all of them, repeatedly!!!) in communal delusions. (Or both). Yeah. You're right. Those options make perfect sense! Thanks for clearing that up!

Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights?

Edited February 14, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Hopefully when Sethbag speaks, Sethbag's thinking has been done. I realize that's not always the case, but I'm working on it.

What, no acknowledgment of your nomination for "Best Laugh of the Day"? I'm hurt!