Latest "Pure Mormonism" Blog: North Vs. Central American Bofm Model

[Brant Gardner]

When visiting the Nephites, Jesus told the gathered, awestruck people, "search the words of Isaiah," and "prepare your minds." Suppose I was there, and timidly raised my hand and said, "You could save us a lot of trouble and effort by just telling us."

Silence.

I wish I would have said it that way. I know that one of the things I have said in various places in the past is that we spend a lot of time congratulating ourselves on not choosing Satan's plan so we could come here with agency--only to beg for that plan to come back and make decisions for us so we don't have to actually use that agency.

[Calm]

I'm really trying to get on board with this line of thinking, but this is a bit of stretch in my mind. We keep saying God must have a priority list of things to reveal and that BoM geography is way down the list.

How many actual doctrinal revelations has there been from the prophet in the last year? Or 10 years? Joseph was getting daily 'new news' at certain stages. The idea that 'God's too busy' to reveal where Zarahemla is doesn't ring true to me.

Either he doesn't want us to know

He wants it found by archaeologists

Or it never existed to be found

I am not saying he is too busy, I am saying that he isn't going to tell us because it isn't important to him for us to know (it is not on his list at all) so if we want to know we have to prove it is important to us.

In other words, what he wants is for us to want to know...really want to know, in the core of our being want so that we will sacrifice what is necessary to learn. I think he loves sharing knowledge, sharing light, but he is careful to give it to those who won't abuse it or let the light go out but value it as he does...for our own sakes.

Edited January 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I wish I would have said it that way. I know that one of the things I have said in various places in the past is that we spend a lot of time congratulating ourselves on not choosing Satan's plan so we could come here with agency--only to beg for that plan to come back and make decisions for us so we don't have to actually use that agency.

It was rather brilliant.

[canard78]

When visiting the Nephites, Jesus told the gathered, awestruck people, "search the words of Isaiah," and "prepare your minds." Suppose I was there, and timidly raised my hand and said, "You could save us a lot of trouble and effort by just telling us."

Silence.

Awkward search for more self justification. "But Lord, reading is hard. And thinking is harder. Can't you please do everything for us while you are here? Make an authoritative pronouncement, so we only have to obey, and not have to read or think?"

sigh

Personally, I think he wants us to know but in via a method that involves gentleness, meekness, long suffering, persuasion, gentleness and pure knowledge, rather than coercive head thumping or nationalistic rants. I think he wants us to try the experiment, as in Alma 32, personally performing experiments, planting the seed and watching for growth, expansion of our minds, and increased understanding, and strengthened faith. The Book of Mormon contains over a thousand passages with geographic information from eye-witnesses. "You mean we have to study it out in our minds first? All of that?" It's like a jigsaw puzzle. A hard one. But, I notice that I don't have to do all the work myself. We have people who have worked on the puzzle. Those that really do the work, show us their work. Their authority comes only from the quality of that work. That work saves some time, but still requires some serious effort to check.

I wish I would have said it that way. I know that one of the things I have said in various places in the past is that we spend a lot of time congratulating ourselves on not choosing Satan's plan so we could come here with agency--only to beg for that plan to come back and make decisions for us so we don't have to actually use that agency.

I am not saying he is too busy, I am saying that he isn't going to tell us because it isn't important to him for us to know (it is not on his list at all) so if we want to know we have to prove it is important to us.

In other words, what he wants is for us to want to know...really want to know, in the core of our being want so that we will sacrifice what is necessary to learn. I think he loves sharing knowledge, sharing light, but he is careful to give it to those who won't abuse it or let the light go out but value it as he does...for our own sakes.

Thanks all. Very good points. I appreciate that the things I treasure most are the things I learn for myself.

I think I will emotionally 'pin' some of these last messages for a while. It's worth remembering.

[canard78]

I got called out in a FAIR Conference question and answer period for that same thing. The questioner wondered why I didn't qualify pretty much everything to make it all less certain. Of course I am always wrong about something, but when I am I don't typically know it until after I learn why. In the meantime, I do tend to seem certain depending upon the audience. It doesn't surprise me at all that Joseph was confident.

It's a very fair point. I guess I use the qualifier language 'religiously' because I have to. Even then it sometimes slips when I feel confident in my speculation.

When I think back to my history lecturers I don't remember them ever using 'may have' when talking about a multitude of topics from the past. Even though they knew there were a dozen other theories on certain events they rarely used phrases like "may have" or "possibly." Perhaps it just gets tiresome and (if over-used) undermines confidence in what's actually being said.

[canard78]

...relationship with weather... appropatiate cultures... cement buildings... evidence for volcanic activity... cultural presence... a good explanation for why, for instance, Limhi's explorers could get lost, see what they did while they were lost, and find an occupied city in the right relationship to a river...

I've read about some of these (but not heard of the weather parallels, nor the Limhi journey). Do you have recommended reading for further study of all of these mesoamerican parallels?

Also:

What's your take on these videos. Given they're FARMs/NAMI productions (and have our very own Brother Gardner as a featured expert) I'm guessing you're happy with them.

And what about the one by Jerry Ainsworth:

http://www.youtube DOT com/watch?v=zrbLgcXaE-s (sorry, can't post 3 youtube videos)

(I've not seen the full film, but wondered whether his film and website is worth spending time with - http://www.ffaas.org

Some of the FARMs videos are probably already a few years out of date. Are there more recent findings available? I suppose Sorenson's new Mormon's Codex is one to look out for. The fact that it has been under review at NAMI for the best part of two years is a rigour I find reassuring.

Edited January 8, 2013 by canard78

[Kevin Christensen]

I've read about some of these (but not heard of the weather parallels, nor the Limhi journey). Do you have recommended reading for further study of all of these mesoamerican parallels?

For weather, see John Sorenson, The Seasonality of Warfare in the Book of Mormon.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=740

For Limhi's journey, see Larry Poulson's website and his recent FAIR presentation.

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2008-Larry-Poulsen.pdf

For volcanics, see Bart Kowallis, here

https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6500

For Mesoamerican comparisons in general, see the FAIR presentations by Brant Gardner, Mark Wright, and Larry Poulson. Then the Maxwell Institute books by Sorenson, Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, Brant's six volume commentaries, John Clark's papers at FARMS. And soon, Sorenson's Mormon's Codex.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Kevin Christensen]

I've got and enjoy both of the FARMS videos. I think Lehi's Journey of Faith is the stronger of the because it is more specific. It mentions options, but also discusses criteria for resolving the questions about which Bountiful candidate is best. The New World video is very useful, and the extras are valuable. It includes short interviews on DNA, metals, chiasmus, and such. I've loaned out my copies to the missionaries at the moment. It is weakened, I think, by the irresolution about the identification of the Sidon. That's just institutional politics as work. But it's still worth having around. It's a lot better than the old Christ in America film. Larry's linked FAIR presentation makes a very good case for settling the argument for the Grijalva. That is, he shows how what Limhi's explorers report makes sense with the Grijalva as Sidon, and how what they report, up to and including their trek through many waters and finding an unoccupied site that could have been mistaken for Zarahemla.

The best arguments tend to get stronger in the long run, as more questions get asked, as more contraries get wrestled with. I'm not as familiar with Ainsworth.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[nosmelone]

[And what about the one by Jerry Ainsworth:

http://www.youtube DOT com/watch?v=zrbLgcXaE-s (sorry, can't post 3 youtube videos)

(I've not seen the full film, but wondered whether his film and website is worth spending time with - http://www.ffaas.org

I've read Ainsworth's Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni and loved it. You have to take some of the evidences he gives with a grain of salt such as the golden plates that he and Estaban received from a friend a colleague (I think these have been proven fake). I think that Brant Gardner did a review on his book for FARMS. Here is the reveiw by T. Lynn Elliot for FARMS.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=12&num=2&id=350

I think he has a way of giving a different perspective on the way he interprets the passages in the Book of Mormon. I must admit between his suggestion of a possible People of Ammon correlation with the Hopi and Nibley's studies of the Hopi that I became heavily influenced to study that possible correlation and that is where the majority of my time has been spent so I give him credit for leading me in that direction although I have found out that many have made that connection long before him.

He has also produced a video called "Finding Moroni" with Dane Hurt (film student) that I found pretty interesting except it focused a bit towards the end on him trying to find a correlation to some of the Monte Alban hieroglyphics and that of the supposed Moroni Signature found in Filmore Utah. Other than that there is an interesting connection made for the design of the Urim and Thummim and the "Giron-Gagal" as possibly the Liahona. I have done a quick blog post on that.

http://www.inthecavityofarock.blogspot.com/2011/11/ancient-history-of-mexico-tapestry-adds.html

His video also points out historical sphere shaped pyramids in Ancient Mexico that show a direct correlation to the Jaredites tower at the confounding of the languages. Anyway its food for thought and I would advise all to at least give it a good look.

[rodheadlee]

That may be the case, but it does strike me that since there can only be one correct geography, the Lord has seen fit to allow certain LDS to waste quite a bit of time and money in the last 100 years promoting and believing in false geographies. We might disagree on who, exactly, is wasting their time, but we have to all agree that it is someone. I know at least one faithful LDS who has spent many hours reading books about a certain geography and discussing it with other LDS and even in Church meetings, and if he is pursuing the wrong one, it is a tragic waste of his time and money. Add all the time together for believes in the different geographies, and it is not a small number.

We might argue that there are benefits that can come even from pursuing a false geography, but I would argue that those benefits cannot outweigh the negatives. If the Lord did see fit to reveal just a few locations (say, the location of Cumorah, Zarahemla, and the land of Nephi), it would allow all the believers in false geographies to start spending their time and money on the promotion of truth. And it would take President Monson less than 60 seconds of pulpit time to say it.

We're not talking about a difficult thing. More complicated (and less important) things are presented all the time in General Conference and no one thinks twice about it.

The pursiut of knowledge is never a tragic waste of time.