Latest "Pure Mormonism" Blog: North Vs. Central American Bofm Model

[The Nehor]

I think most proponents of a LGT put "the land northward" within the confines of their accepted LGT model. So if someone has a mesoamerican LGT model that puts Cumorah in Mexico, then North America isn't the "land northward" for them. Perhaps one of you who hold to this model can correct me if I'm wrong.

Does this mean that next time I play Risk I do not have to hold Central America to get the extra five armies because it is not part of North America?

[ERayR]

Not if they have no truth in the grain. To say "this pile of rocks is the altar where Adam made his first sacrifice" could have no truth at all if they're simply the rocks from a tribal burial or a stash for tribal war or the rocks piled up from clearing a field.

Can you follow that rock through its existence to its beginning and say for certain that at one time it was not a part of one of Adam;s alters? If Joseph wants to speculate for effect, well campfire stories can be fun.

[Hayds]

In my mind I have always pictured a Meso American setting, but maybe thats because a lot of LDS depictions and paintings (Friberg) kind of create a South/Central American vibe.

However, I have never warmed up to the 2 Cumorahs theory. In my opinion there is no hard evidence or facts to insinuate that this is the case. It just seems like a well thought out, but made up theory to lend credence to the Cental American LGT theory.

Until an archeologist digs up some physical evidence referencing some substantial evidence to these people, I am open to the BOM taking place in any area of the Americas, North, South, or Central. I am also open to the BOM as an inspired allegory and not a factual history of any ancient American culture.

[canard78]

Can you follow that rock through its existence to its beginning and say for certain that at one time it was not a part of one of Adam;s alters? If Joseph wants to speculate for effect, well campfire stories can be fun.

You're right, I can't. It's possible we can follow that rock as you suggest. But I don't find it probable. Especially as the rocks were described collectively.

And I've no problem with Joseph speculating. If he did speculate, he rarely seems to speak such speculation with any uncertainty.

The word speculate means "a guess, a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence." Joseph tends to say things without setting it in the context of being a guess.

For example:

I'm reassured that we can read the King Follett discourse withe a healthy dose of skepticism because he starts by saying he will speculate: "I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general and offer you my ideas so far as I have ability..." but he very quickly moves into statements of fact without any apparent room for uncertainty: "I do not intend to please your ears with superfluity of words or oratory or with much learning, but rather to edify you with the simple truths from heaven."

What follows are a series of extended speculations which have not all been endorsed as doctrine, but he delivers most of them as statements of fact, not guesses and unsubstantiated ideas.

It leads me further towards a non-literal understanding of many aspects of Bible and LDS history. Much of what Joseph and prophets before have to be delivered as facts, to have an impact. We're less likely to act on a parable than a factual statement with clear implications. D&C 19:6-7 suggests God has always been more comfortable doing this as it is "more express than other (teaching methods) that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory."

[Robert F. Smith]

Didn't you forget the smiley face?

Canard78 said:

LOL, I prefer my Gibson to be served at his gun-toting, non-soap-boxing, 1980s best.

Hey, guys, I was serious. If you want to see an authentic representation of Maya culture on the eve of the Conquista, Gibson and his anthropologist advisers give you that. If you want to personally experience how to use a spear-thrower (atlatl), Mark Wright has one for you to try out. We need to get away from the image of a Nordic Jesus, or of Nephites as Vikings -- a la Arnold Friberg.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think most proponents of a LGT put "the land northward" within the confines of their accepted LGT model. So if someone has a mesoamerican LGT model that puts Cumorah in Mexico, then North America isn't the "land northward" for them. Perhaps one of you who hold to this model can correct me if I'm wrong.

One might imagine the Land Northward as fairly limited, as you say, but there were people who left and were never seen again, who presumably went much further away. One can for example point to the Hohokam culture of Arizona, where trade with Mesoamerica clearly took place and in which many features of that advanced culture were adopted: ball courts, rubber balls, earspools, etc. See the museum and associated bldgs at Casa Grande.

[canard78]

Hey, guys, I was serious. If you want to see an authentic representation of Maya culture on the eve of the Conquista, Gibson and his anthropologist advisers give you that. If you want to personally experience how to use a spear-thrower (atlatl), Mark Wright has one for you to try out. We need to get away from the image of a Nordic Jesus, or of Nephites as Vikings -- a la Arnold Friberg.

So you're telling me Nephi didn't have forearms the size of my thigh? (smiley face) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2uAZ4vIowKE/T1507Vld_vI/AAAAAAAAEDA/0Bz337Yr3As/s1600/ArtBook__071_071__LehiAndHisPeopleArriveInPromisedLand____.jpg

Out of interest, what was your take on the Testaments movie? A step in the right direction or an awkward cliche?

The problem with the church adopting a well-researched meso-American set of images (if that's what you're advocating) is it implies we know for certain the main events of the Book of Mormon were centred in meso-America.

I'd love that certainty. But not even the church leaders offer that (and nor do the LDS scholars and archaeologists).

[Robert F. Smith]

In my mind I have always pictured a Meso American setting, but maybe thats because a lot of LDS depictions and paintings (Friberg) kind of create a South/Central American vibe.

I didn't get that "vibe" from Friberg.

However, I have never warmed up to the 2 Cumorahs theory. In my opinion there is no hard evidence or facts to insinuate that this is the case. It just seems like a well thought out, but made up theory to lend credence to the Cental American LGT theory.

Your intuition is correct, the two Cumorah theory is false. There is only one Hill Cumorah and it is in Mesoamerica. The hill convenient to Manchester from which Joseph obtained the plates is not named Cumorah by him until many years later, and then only as an afterthought. Moroni brought the 50 lbs of plates, together with the breastplate and sword, and buried them where (centuries later) Joseph would find them.

Until an archeologist digs up some physical evidence referencing some substantial evidence to these people, I am open to the BOM taking place in any area of the Americas, North, South, or Central. I am also open to the BOM as an inspired allegory and not a factual history of any ancient American culture.

Before a scholar can investigate something, he must study it in detail. This means reading the Book of Mormon the same way a biblical scholar reads the Bible -- before he gets a spade and starts digging.

Herr Schliemann began his effort to locate Ilium (Troy) in Asia Minor by first reading the Iliad. He studied the details in the text and then began digging. Did he dismiss the Homeric epic simply because it contained gods and goddesses and was regarded as a fairy tale? No. Did he accept the then standard theory that archaic Greeks were illiterate. Who knows? The fact is that, as a result of extensive archeological work, we know that the archaic Greeks were literate, highly cultured, and had a vast trade network.

Book of Mormon scholars begin with close analysis of the text for signs which can be understood to reveal claims which can be investigated via archeology and philology, for example. Since the book claims at least a couple of highly literate, well-organized civilizations, with large populations, one is hard put on that basis alone to find any other likely area than Mesoamerica. That the key civilizations in the Book of Mormon rise and fall in synch with the key Mesoamerican civilizations is a particularly intriguing archeological fact. Close analysis of distances traveled in the text show a very limited area in which everything took place, and similar on that basis to the action in ancient Palestine.

Analysis of the text itself shows a sophistication unlikely in a novel composed by some smart kid living in a rural area of New York. Call in a disinterested third party to do the analysis, and see what he says. Find a questioned document examiner and get his opinion.

[Brant Gardner]

Hey, guys, I was serious. If you want to see an authentic representation of Maya culture on the eve of the Conquista, Gibson and his anthropologist advisers give you that.

Not quite. Gibson still took license, and the advisors took heat. I saw several problems with it as well. I admit that it is closer than most, but it was still a movie. I am told, however, that the old man telling stories around the campfire was Maya and speaking beautiful Maya (as opposed to the script-learned-phonetic Maya of the actors).

[cdowis]

Alma 63:5 also suggest that those in the land northward were close enough to maintain some contact with the main group. Or they at least knew where they were, to be able to send provisions to them.

Your leap of logic is breathtaking.

You are constructing your argument over ONE event, where supplies were shipped SOMEWHERE in the land northward, by a ship, with no indication of how long it took.

Well, logically the British did not send ships to the colonies, because they were too far away.

There is evidence of trading between the Mayans and Cuba and the Bahamas. This is beyond simply following a costal route.

http://www.everythingcozumel.com/history/MayanSeatradeRoutes.pdf

Edited January 3, 2013 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

So you're telling me Nephi didn't have forearms the size of my thigh? (smiley face) http://3.bp.blogspot...sedLand____.jpg

Out of interest, what was your take on the Testaments movie? A step in the right direction or an awkward cliche?

I had to watch it again just now to recall. It was made in 2000 under the supervision of Elder Neil Anderson, so we ought to understand that it follows the Mesoamerican path begun by the Church in 1984, with the publication in the Sept & Oct Ensign of two articles by John L. Sorenson.

Although the Testaments movie didn't go whole hog, it did adopt many features of Mesoamerican culture, including pyramids, corbeled arches, screenfold books, and iconography, all in a tropical or semi-tropical environment. The Caucasian actors even darkened their skin to match the other actors.

Although some Hebrew-speaking Israeli actors were clearly used for the Mary & Joseph scenes, the Hollywood tendency to portray Jesus as a Caucasian could not apparently be avoided, along with Carl Bloch's artistic version of the NT context. I am thinking of Max Von Sydow, Jeffrey Hunter, Willem Dafoe, Jim Caviezel, et al. I don't know the actor in the LDS production, but he seemed not to have a clue as to how to portray Jesus -- except as some sort of man-child. I would have preferred a Jewish actor who had some charisma and presence. Someone with an olive complexion and decent beard.

The problem with the church adopting a well-researched meso-American set of images (if that's what you're advocating) is it implies we know for certain the main events of the Book of Mormon were centred in meso-America.

I am only advocating what I would recommend for the making of "The Last of the Mohicans" (1992). I cannot improve on the Daniel Day-Lewis version, with actual Amerinds and respect for their culture -- a big improvement on the versions I saw as a child and young man.

I'd love that certainty. But not even the church leaders offer that (and nor do the LDS scholars and archaeologists).

I don't know what you mean by "certainty," and am not sure that your appraisal of LDS scholars and archeologists is accurate, unless I misunderstand you.

[Robert F. Smith]

Not quite. Gibson still took license, and the advisors took heat. I saw several problems with it as well. I admit that it is closer than most, but it was still a movie. I am told, however, that the old man telling stories around the campfire was Maya and speaking beautiful Maya (as opposed to the script-learned-phonetic Maya of the actors).

O.K. Point taken. But where else would you see the authentic preparation of quick lime on a large scale? However, I will defer to your better info on that general matter.

[nosmelone]

One might imagine the Land Northward as fairly limited, as you say, but there were people who left and were never seen again, who presumably went much further away. One can for example point to the Hohokam culture of Arizona, where trade with Mesoamerica clearly took place and in which many features of that advanced culture were adopted: ball courts, rubber balls, earspools, etc. See the museum and associated bldgs at Casa Grande.

I live in Chandler AZ and have visited the two story ruins in Casa Grande and will be taking my kids for a good "look see" as well. I will see if I can get some pictures and will update my blog with that . But your correct of course the Hohokam and Anasazi were clearly influenced by the Mesoamerican cultures and that influence is still very evident in the Hopi and Zuni (and other Pueblo) cultures today.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3jPxZG52k&feature=youtu.be&t=28m6s

Fun fact! Testaments is a frickin' awful movie, but I have great affection for it, since most of it was filmed about five minutes away from the town I grew up in (many years before I knew much about the church). The Mesoamerican jungle scenes are all places I wandered around; the mountains behind the pyramids are also behind my old house. My dad is a prominent extra in a couple scenes (at 28:07 he's the guy dressed in the red shirt on our right carrying the basket - and unlike some of the extras, that's his real hair down to his waist) and my brother was on the set too, though we haven't managed to spot him in any backgrounds yet. (I could've been in there too, but I didn't go for some reason. It's been awhile, I dunno what my excuse was at the time.)

After filming, we never heard what happened with the movie -- I was expecting it to be shown in theaters, which of course didn't happen. Years later, when my dad was living in Colorado, he made friends with some local Missionaries in his apartment building -- you can guess what happened when they showed him the movie! Of course they got him hooked up with a bunch of copies of the film, so when we went traveling in Europe to visit some family for the first time, we took a bunch of copies with us to give to various branches of the family so they could see where me and my brother grew up. I was basically a Missionary years before I joined the Church.

Edited January 3, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I would want to examine the history of the North American Natives the Smithsonian has sequestered away before coming close to making any declaration as to the geographic location of the Book of Mormon. But since the Smithonsian is unlikely to help the First Nations people reclaim their history anytime in the near future, I will just watch with interest as the two-sides go at each other.

[Brant Gardner]

I would want to examine the history of the North American Natives the Smithsonian has sequestered away before coming close to making any declaration as to the geographic location of the Book of Mormon.

I'm really not sure to what you might refer. I suspect that there isn't anything you couldn't get your hands on. However, much of the Smithsonian's early work was also in times before the birth of modern archaeology and you will be much better served by the later/modern studies. As with most things in archaeology, we know a lot more now than ever in the past.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm really not sure to what you might refer. I suspect that there isn't anything you couldn't get your hands on. However, much of the Smithsonian's early work was also in times before the birth of modern archaeology and you will be much better served by the later/modern studies. As with most things in archaeology, we know a lot more now than ever in the past.

Since the Smithsonian and most archaeologists still pretty much maintain that Natives were wandering nomads since the time they crossed "the land bridge", that never acheived advanced civilization- I believe I am somewhat justified in being skeptical of their studies. Once they dedicate as much effort to North American sites as they do to Central American perhaps my interest will be peeked somewhat more.

[nosmelone]

I attended a Rod Meldrum conference a few years ago and remember seeing a video of Keith Merril the director of "The Testament" saying that if he could do it all over he would have done it in a north American setting (Cahokia or something like that). As a Mesoamericanist myself I wanted to hug him and let him know everything would be alright....not to worry he got it right the first time. lol

[Rivers]

Hey, guys, I was serious. If you want to see an authentic representation of Maya culture on the eve of the Conquista, Gibson and his anthropologist advisers give you that. If you want to personally experience how to use a spear-thrower (atlatl), Mark Wright has one for you to try out. We need to get away from the image of a Nordic Jesus, or of Nephites as Vikings -- a la Arnold Friberg.

Isn't Apocalypto Aztec? The ending of the of the movie shows Europeans coming. I was under the impression that the Mayan civilization had phased out long before the Europeans showed up.

[canard78]

Your leap of logic is breathtaking.

You are constructing your argument over ONE event, where supplies were shipped SOMEWHERE in the land northward, by a ship, with no indication of how long it took.

Well, logically the British did not send ships to the colonies, because they were too far away.

There is evidence of trading between the Mayans and Cuba and the Bahamas. This is beyond simply following a costal route.

http://www.everythingcozumel.com/history/MayanSeatradeRoutes.pdf

Breathtaking? I'm flattered. How about Mayan - Illiniwek trade links?

You're right. It's possible that the land northward was Illinois, 2,500 miles north of Mayan territory or a boat trip to New Orleans and 900 more miles cross-country. But you'd have to wonder why they'd bother. Plus if they're spreading that far north it's becoming pretty hemespheric. No? And then you'd need to address the fact that Joseph was delighting in their time sharing the stories of the beloved people. With about two verses and no real knowledge, I can't see how he was knowingly having a good chinwag about the people who went to the land northward.

However technically possible it is that the land northward refers to Illinois, it just seems improbable that Joseph had that in mind when writing to Emma.

That leaves me with the three possibilities:

- Joseph, through revelation, was saying Nephites had literally lived in Illinois (main events or the unlikely group in the land northward)

- Joseph was speculating about BoM geography but, in Joseph style, speaking with language of certainty

- Joseph was telling stories to lift people's spirits

Out of interest, do you feel the need to make it be the first to fit your expectations of Joseph the prophet or are you comfortable that it could have been 2 or 3?

[canard78]

I had to watch it again just now to recall. It was made in 2000 under the supervision of Elder Neil Anderson, so we ought to understand that it follows the Mesoamerican path begun by the Church in 1984, with the publication in the Sept & Oct Ensign of two articles by John L. Sorenson.

Although the Testaments movie didn't go whole hog, it did adopt many features of Mesoamerican culture, including pyramids, corbeled arches, screenfold books, and iconography, all in a tropical or semi-tropical environment. The Caucasian actors even darkened their skin to match the other actors.

Although some Hebrew-speaking Israeli actors were clearly used for the Mary & Joseph scenes, the Hollywood tendency to portray Jesus as a Caucasian could not apparently be avoided, along with Carl Bloch's artistic version of the NT context. I am thinking of Max Von Sydow, Jeffrey Hunter, Willem Dafoe, Jim Caviezel, et al. I don't know the actor in the LDS production, but he seemed not to have a clue as to how to portray Jesus -- except as some sort of man-child. I would have preferred a Jewish actor who had some charisma and presence. Someone with an olive complexion and decent beard.

I've just realised the irony of your earlier statement about a Nordic Jesus. The actor playing the part in Testaments is Norwegian (with a fake beard and hair). He was also in the recent handcart movie (17 miracles? Or 7?). In his Jesus role they flew him in at the last minute and dubbed his voice with an American (Utahn?) actor.

For the New Testament films released last year (google: LDS bible videos), they nearly went with an Italian (with olive skin and Mediterranean features) for Jesus. In the end they went with a new-Yorker. I thought he did a decent job and they did a better job with wig and beard than Testaments, but I'd have still liked to see how the Italian would have played it.

I am only advocating what I would recommend for the making of "The Last of the Mohicans" (1992). I cannot improve on the Daniel Day-Lewis version, with actual Amerinds and respect for their culture -- a big improvement on the versions I saw as a child and young man.

I don't know what you mean by "certainty," and am not sure that your appraisal of LDS scholars and archeologists is accurate, unless I misunderstand you.

In a reply to Hayds you said:

"There is only one Hill Cumorah and it is in Mesoamerica."

Although you use language of certainty, that's not proven unequivocally is it? Church leaders don't say so by revelation and scholars haven't proven it. Or have I missed something in my reading?

[Brant Gardner]

Since the Smithsonian and most archaeologists still pretty much maintain that Natives were wandering nomads since the time they crossed "the land bridge", that never acheived advanced civilization- I believe I am somewhat justified in being skeptical of their studies. Once they dedicate as much effort to North American sites as they do to Central American perhaps my interest will be peeked somewhat more.

Your response doesn't correspond with what I know of modern archaeology. Different people work in different areas, and no one is assuming that there was never "civilization." That simply doesn't fit our modern understanding of either civilization or of the various New World populations. Some were more advanced than others, but places like Cahokia were quite impressive. The work on that site is also modern.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Perhaps you could do with a better source?

[canard78]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3jPxZG52k&feature=youtu.be&t=28m6s

Fun fact! Testaments is a frickin' awful movie, but I have great affection for it, since most of it was filmed about five minutes away from the town I grew up in (many years before I knew much about the church). The Mesoamerican jungle scenes are all places I wandered around; the mountains behind the pyramids are also behind my old house. My dad is a prominent extra in a couple scenes (at 28:07 he's the guy dressed in the red shirt on our right carrying the basket - and unlike some of the extras, that's his real hair down to his waist) and my brother was on the set too, though we haven't managed to spot him in any backgrounds yet. (I could've been in there too, but I didn't go for some reason. It's been awhile, I dunno what my excuse was at the time.)

After filming, we never heard what happened with the movie -- I was expecting it to be shown in theaters, which of course didn't happen. Years later, when my dad was living in Colorado, he made friends with some local Missionaries in his apartment building -- you can guess what happened when they showed him the movie! Of course they got him hooked up with a bunch of copies of the film, so when we went traveling in Europe to visit some family for the first time, we took a bunch of copies with us to give to various branches of the family so they could see where me and my brother grew up. I was basically a Missionary years before I joined the Church.

Friend of mine has one line in the film something about the chief judge being killed on the judgement seat.

He's of Indian (or Hawaiian??) decent and has grown his hair for the role. On arrival they put a black wig and fake tan on him as they wanted hair 'consistency'

He's still proud of his involvement in it and (I think) has an IMDB credit for it.

[Brant Gardner]

Isn't Apocalypto Aztec? The ending of the of the movie shows Europeans coming. I was under the impression that the Mayan civilization had phased out long before the Europeans showed up.

Apocalypto is Maya, and correctly so. There are Maya today, and certainly when the Spanish arrive. An early shipwreck had a few Spaniards land on the Yucatan. Some of them were sacrificed and a couple lived until Cortez arrived. One returned to the Spanish, the other had a native wife and actually led the resistance in his area against his former countrymen.

The communication between Cortez and the Aztec king, Montezuma, went from Cortez in Spanish to his countryman who spoke Maya to Dona Marina, who spoke both Maya and Nahuatl (Aztec).

[Robert F. Smith]

Isn't Apocalypto Aztec? The ending of the of the movie shows Europeans coming. I was under the impression that the Mayan civilization had phased out long before the Europeans showed up.

No, Apocalypto deals exclusively with the Maya.

When Hernan Cortes stepped ashore in Mexico and began the Conquista in the Spring of 1519, the Maya were completely unaware of his presence. The Conquest went on for almost two centuries, until March 13, 1697, when the Itza of Tayasal, in the Yucatan, fled from the Spanish. That was also the heyday of the mission system in Alta California under Father Junipero Serra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F945LQG6fuA