Latest "Pure Mormonism" Blog: North Vs. Central American Bofm Model

[Robert F. Smith]

In a reply to Hayds you said:

"There is only one Hill Cumorah and it is in Mesoamerica."

Although you use language of certainty, that's not proven unequivocally is it? Church leaders don't say so by revelation and scholars haven't proven it. Or have I missed something in my reading?

Perhaps you have found some evidence for the Two Cumorahs theory. I know of none. That is why I take the position that there is only one. I'm not sure what you mean by proof or revelation. It seems to me that we are pretty much left on our own, to puzzle it out as we will.

[cdowis]

. Plus if they're spreading that far north it's becoming pretty hemespheric. No?

Let me repeat, the LGT itself relates only to the location of events in the BOM text itself, and does not preclude that Nephites/Lamanites inhabited North, South and Central America. The geographic range of these two groups, the habitation of Nephites in Illinois, has absolutely nothing to do with LGT.

It does have everything to do with the location of the Hill Cumorah. I have absolutely no problem with Nephites in Illinois.

Edited January 3, 2013 by cdowis

[canard78]

Perhaps you have found some evidence for the Two Cumorahs theory. I know of none. That is why I take the position that there is only one. I'm not sure what you mean by proof or revelation. It seems to me that we are pretty much left on our own, to puzzle it out as we will.

Sorry, what I mean is the second part. I'm fine with there being one cumorah. I'm just not certain it's in mesoamerica. I don't know how we can be certain of that. There just isn't enough evidence to prove this. Maybe you didn't mean to make it a statement of fact, but when you said 'it is in mesoamerica' it didn't sound like your were puzzling, it sounded like a statement of fact and certainty.

Anyway, no biggie... I was just curious to understand how you could pinpoint a geographic (single) cumorah with such unequivocal language.

[Sevenbak]

Does this mean that next time I play Risk I do not have to hold Central America to get the extra five armies because it is not part of North America?

No, the extra armies were all destroyed at Cumorah further north.

[Sevenbak]

One might imagine the Land Northward as fairly limited, as you say, but there were people who left and were never seen again, who presumably went much further away. One can for example point to the Hohokam culture of Arizona, where trade with Mesoamerica clearly took place and in which many features of that advanced culture were adopted: ball courts, rubber balls, earspools, etc. See the museum and associated bldgs at Casa Grande.

The Edge of the Cedars Museum in Blanding has a cool squirrel belt. The squirrel skin is indigenous to the mountain just north of Blanding, the blue macaw feathers are from Mexico.

[Robert F. Smith]

Sorry, what I mean is the second part. I'm fine with there being one cumorah. I'm just not certain it's in mesoamerica. I don't know how we can be certain of that. There just isn't enough evidence to prove this. Maybe you didn't mean to make it a statement of fact, but when you said 'it is in mesoamerica' it didn't sound like your were puzzling, it sounded like a statement of fact and certainty.

Anyway, no biggie... I was just curious to understand how you could pinpoint a geographic (single) cumorah with such unequivocal language.

They say that the only thing we can be certain of in this life is death and taxes. The rest is merely a matter of opinion, even if strongly felt and expressed.

However, we make decisions every day based on likelihood or probability. The question of where the Hill Cumorah might be, if it is real and can be located even in a generic sense, entails careful analysis of a broad spectrum of data as well as dialogue with others who are so engaged -- not all of whom must necessarily agree on all particulars. That is how the scholarly enterprise proceeds and suggests conclusions on a variety of questions.

Are you conversant with the manifold considerations which one must bring to bear on the question of where the Nephite Hill Cumorah might be? Are you aware that it is the same location as Jaredite Ramah? How might one go about establishing with some reasonable degree of assurance the relative location of this place in a general Book of Mormon context? What do distance statements within the Book of Mormon suggest? What makes sense in the real world? I could go on, but you probably get the point. Are you familiar with such considerations and how they have been handled over the years? Endless discussions of this topic have taken place on this Board.

[canard78]

They say that the only thing we can be certain of in this life is death and taxes. The rest is merely a matter of opinion, even if strongly felt and expressed.

However, we make decisions every day based on likelihood or probability. The question of where the Hill Cumorah might be, if it is real and can be located even in a generic sense, entails careful analysis of a broad spectrum of data as well as dialogue with others who are so engaged -- not all of whom must necessarily agree on all particulars. That is how the scholarly enterprise proceeds and suggests conclusions on a variety of questions.

Are you conversant with the manifold considerations which one must bring to bear on the question of where the Nephite Hill Cumorah might be? Are you aware that it is the same location as Jaredite Ramah? How might one go about establishing with some reasonable degree of assurance the relative location of this place in a general Book of Mormon context? What do distance statements within the Book of Mormon suggest? What makes sense in the real world? I could go on, but you probably get the point. Are you familiar with such considerations and how they have been handled over the years? Endless discussions of this topic have taken place on this Board.

Many apologies, my weakness in writing etc...

I agree with you. I agree that with all those variables you list we can't be certain.

It's because of this that I was a little surprised to see that you'd said "Cumorah is in Mesoamerica" rather than "I think Cumorah is in Mesoamerica" or "Cumorah is probably in Mesoamerica"

[Alan]

I'm joining this discussion late.

For me the Book of Mormon story played out in North America. I arrived at that conclusion by reading the text of the book itself and a long time before I came across Mr Meldrum.

It is also very obvious to me, again from reading the text, that there were others in the land and that they were not very far away.

The Central American position has never rung true to me and required such mental gymnastics as to render it unworkable, in my view.

[thesometimesaint]

Alan:

Just the opposite is true. Mr. Meldrum plays with the intelligence to meet his policy.

[cdowis]

It is also very obvious to me, again from reading the text, that there were others in the land and that they were not very far away.

The Central American position has never rung true to me and required such mental gymnastics as to render it unworkable, in my view.

Tell us about the technology in North America, relative to what is described in the BOM -- the calendar, written records (codex), evidence of extensive wars, concrete, towers built for religious functions. I am courious how you compare this with mesoamerica, without "mental gymnastics".

Edited January 5, 2013 by cdowis

[MOAI]

Tell us about the technology in North America, relative to what is described in the BOM -- the calendar, written records (codex), evidence of extensive wars, concrete, towers built for religious functions. I am courious how you compare this with mesoamerica, without "mental gymnastics".

Tell us why Members of the only True Church have to believe the Prophet Joseph Smith learned the true location of the Book of Mormon from a travel book?

Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central, not South, America. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

And this two years before Joseph Smith was killed. And everything he had said or implied up to that point, of reading the travel book, about North America was wrong - that Joseph Smith didn't understand was he was talking about:

What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. Until he encountered the Stephens's book, Joseph gave no hint that he was aware that such a limited area with a distinctive civilized culture even existed in the Americas. [iBID.]

I'll tell you why. Because Joseph Smith did point to North America as the Book's prime location, thus such statements about him are required to put forth in proving a Mesoamerica setting.

This is the main event of the mental gymnastics for the Mesaomerica Olympics.

Respectfully, MOAI

[thesometimesaint]

No proposed location, so far, outside of Mesomerica meets the requirements within the Book of Mormon itself.

BTW Mesoamerica is in the Northern Hemisphere.

Edited January 5, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[MOAI]

No proposed location, so far, outside of Mesomerica meets the requirements within the Book of Mormon itself.

BTW Mesoamerica is in the Northern Hemisphere.

But mesoamerica proponents still have to claim during Church Firesides, that Joseph Smith made up campfire stories.

[thesometimesaint]

But mesoamerica proponents still have to claim during Church Firesides, that Joseph Smith made up campfire stories.

There is no question that JS did make up good stores. The only real question is if he was acting as a Prophet while doing it. I don't take every word ever spoken by anybody as always literal fact and neither should you. There has been only one perfect person on this earth, and Joseph Smith whatever his admirable and prophetic accomplishments isn't that person.

A Prophet is only a Prophet when acting as such.

Joseph Smith Jr.

[MOAI]

There is no question that JS did make up good stores. The only real question is if he was acting as a Prophet while doing it. I don't take every word ever spoken by anybody as always literal fact and neither should you. There has been only one perfect person on this earth, and Joseph Smith whatever his admirable and prophetic accomplishments isn't that person.

A Prophet is only a Prophet when acting as such.

Joseph Smith Jr.

Yep. That's the mental gymnastics Mesoamerica Proponents provide.

And how's that working for you with President Monson?

After General Conference, does he clock out, then go home and dig a pit for his neighbor?

[livy111us]

Welcome back, ANACO.

Tell us why Members of the only True Church have to believe the Prophet Joseph Smith learned the true location of the Book of Mormon from a travel book?

And this two years before Joseph Smith was killed. And everything he had said or implied up to that point, of reading the travel book, about North America was wrong - that Joseph Smith didn't understand was he was talking about:

I'll tell you why. Because Joseph Smith did point to North America as the Book's prime location, thus such statements about him are required to put forth in proving a Mesoamerica setting.

This is the main event of the mental gymnastics for the Mesaomerica Olympics.

Respectfully, MOAI

Welcome back, ANACO. Why the name change?

[Brant Gardner]

Tell us why Members of the only True Church have to believe the Prophet Joseph Smith learned the true location of the Book of Mormon from a travel book?

Because the Lord never revealed it to him. Joseph never claimed that all knowledge had been dumped into his head. While he had seen visions that allowed him to better understand what he was translating, I don't know any way to make that visual representation specifically mark a location. The Mesoamerican locations which fit the Book of Mormon are not jungles, they are mountains, rivers and deciduous trees. There wouldn't be much there to tell Joseph where those things occurred.

If the history of Joseph's remarks on geography tell us that he was open to new ideas and embraced them, why should anyone be required to restrict Joseph to a concept of revelation to which he never subscribed (that he should know everything).

Suggesting that the nature of a prophet trumps history suggests that one hasn't read much on the history of prophets.

And this two years before Joseph Smith was killed. And everything he had said or implied up to that point, of reading the travel book, about North America was wrong - that Joseph Smith didn't understand was he was talking about:

Don't put loaded words into the conversation. It wasn't that Joseph didn't understand what he was talking about, but that he was speculating based on his available information. When the information changed, he accepted new information. There is no other way to read the whole corpus of his comments related to Book of Mormon geography. I don't see any evidence that he gave up thinking about North America in connection with the Book of Mormon, only that he added specific evidence from Mesoamerica.

I believe that those who suggest that Mesoamerica must be the place because Joseph said so have misrepresented Joseph in exactly the same way as those suggesting that Joseph located exclusively in North America.

This is the main event of the mental gymnastics for the Mesaomerica Olympics. Respectfully, MOAI

Pardon me if I don't regard accusations of mental gymnastics to be particularly respectful. There are ways to disagree respectfully.

However, the fact is that the Mesoamerican position isn't dependent upon Joseph's endorsement for validity. That he looked to that region is, I believe, part of the historical record. That it didn't become the only interpretation from then on is also part of the historical record. What that record indicates is that there was no agreement, even among those who knew Joseph personally and intimately.

I find it hard to sustain any position that suggests that Joseph clearly indicated a geography for the Book of Mormon, but that everyone who knew him and all of the subsequent prophets somehow forgot or ignored that geography. There is a much more human story behind this, which happens when the Lord allows us to work things out on our own.

[livy111us]

Tell us why Members of the only True Church have to believe the Prophet Joseph Smith learned the true location of the Book of Mormon from a travel book?

You mean he was inspired by learning about the subject? That is almost as bad as learning about baptism for the remission of sins after reading about it as he translated the plates (JSH 68), or when he learned the Word of Wisdom after the nasty tobacco use in the school of the Prophets, or Joseph F. Smith having the Spirit World vision found in D/C 138 after reading 1 Peter, Inspiration can come by any means and for you to limit those means will limit your ability for revelation.

"And this two years before Joseph Smith was killed. And everything he had said or implied up to that point, of reading the travel book, about North America was wrong - that Joseph Smith didn't understand was he was talking about"

I would agree with you that this is the wrong way to look at it. But you are doing the same thing. You reject everything Joseph Smith said about BOM geography after he came across Stephens and Catherwoods book which places the BOM in Mesoamerica.

I'll tell you why. Because Joseph Smith did point to North America as the Book's prime location, thus such statements about him are required to put forth in proving a Mesoamerica setting.

This is the main event of the mental gymnastics for the Mesaomerica Olympics.

Respectfully, MOAI

Sure he did, if you only accept a portion of what he said. If you take into account ALL that he said, you get a very different picture than you are trying to paint.

[Brant Gardner]

Yep. That's the mental gymnastics Mesoamerica Proponents provide.

It is mental gymnastics to suggest that Joseph was a prophet when speaking as one, and not at other time? You do realize that Joseph is the source of that idea?

And how's that working for you with President Monson?

Frankly, I have a rather firm conviction that President Monson believes what Joseph taught-- and that he would know from personal experience that a prophet is a prophet only when speaking of one.

After General Conference, does he clock out, then go home and dig a pit for his neighbor?

Are you suggesting that Joseph Smith was digging a pit for future members of the church when he speculated about the city of Zarahemla being Quirigua?

I assume you accept the very strong evidence that Joseph said that, or are you involved in a particular type of mental gymnastics that attempts to discount it?

[Calm]

Yep. That's the mental gymnastics Mesoamerica Proponents provide.

And how's that working for you with President Monson?

After General Conference, does he clock out, then go home and dig a pit for his neighbor?

If I understand Moai/Anaco correctly, he is accusing MSA proponents as "digging pits for their neighbour"...iow accusing them of intentionally leading people into apostasy.

Par for the course for him.

Or is Moai actually accusing Pres. Monson of doing the same because he is ultimately the one behind the church's official statement of "there is no revealed geography for the BoM"?

Edited January 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Welcome back, ANACO.

Welcome back, ANACO. Why the name change?

Hard to post under a banned alias.

[livy111us]

Hard to post under a banned alias.

[Calm]

Respectfully, MOAI

Just who is your 'benediction' of "respectfully" directed to?

[MOAI]

In reply to all of you, you've proven the point - you have to claim that Joseph Smith was wrong. And all I had to do was quote NAMI.

And remember. The reason Joseph Smith dug a pit for his neighbors on top of Zelph's Mound and rubbed Zelph's thigh bones together to make a campfire, was so that Joseph Smith The Prophet could make up campfire stories about Zelph, because he wasn't acting as a Prophet at the time, and all of you have the self-appointed authority to claim that he wasn't all because his statements contradict with your tightly-held belief of a Mesoamerica geography for The Book of Mormon.

[Tacenda]

Why will JS get revelations concerning things such as finance or property, and the Lord even naming the individuals that associated with him but not the geography of BoM lands? The D&C is full of these revelations and it is usually a revelation to get someone to do something they don't want to do.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Tacenda