Will The Real Devil Please Stand Up: Sifting Through Truth And Tradition

[Tacenda]

When I think there might not be a Devil, I think of shows like "The Exoricist" and think again. There are evil spirits among us. Not just one spirit. And they are all his people, that left Christ for him. Gives me alot to think about. Makes you want to stay in Christ's favor, and His kingdom forever.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

"Pride is enmity toward God and toward man"

This is a great, classic talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcle5-m81-0

I miss GBH so much...thanks for posting this.

[rongo]

Something that we don't talk very much of is how Lucifer became the devil. If we cannot choose, save we are enticed by the one or the other, who enticed Lucifer to rebel? It is hard enough to grasp the concept that there is no beginning of good and of Gods, is there also no beginning of evil and of devils? Surely ours is not the original devil. If there are endless Gods before our Father, there must be endless devils who tempted and tried these Gods before they could become Gods. If there are other devils, they must be spirit children of Gods. Therefore, there must first be a God before a devil can exist, but at the same time, there must be a devil before a God can exist if the plan of salvation is the same for all. This idea of no beginning is simply too much to grasp. It all gets so confusing!

If this devil who tempted Lucifer exists, would he not be in outer darkness somewhere? If so, how did he have access to Lucifer? Does this mean that the pre-mortal life was somehow in conjunction with outer darkness where intelligences, pre-mortal spirits, and devils abide? So many questions that I am interested to find out about one day.

I like Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball's explanation:

1) Each earth has its own devil and savior

2) Outer Darkness (for Sons of Perdition) consists of physical matter, spirit matter, and intelligence being separated from each other and the intelligences starting over again from the very beginning. Neither types of matter nor intelligence can be created, so the inherent evil in the devils' intelligence resides again when these intelligences start over. They will by nature be devils again.

[The Nehor]

When I think there might not be a Devil, I think of shows like "The Exoricist" and think again. There are evil spirits among us. Not just one spirit. And they are all his people, that left Christ for him. Gives me alot to think about. Makes you want to stay in Christ's favor, and His kingdom forever.

I would point out that that movie is silly and not an accurate representation of possession or what devils do.

[pogi]

Darkness results from turning away from and blocking the light (an example of being incapable of equal magnitude but of opposite direction). This is why darkness cannot “emanate” from such a being.

This is true, but by blocking the light we automatically open the faucet for darkness and invite it in. Darkness does emanate from Satan as light emanates from Christ. Just as Christ influences through his light, Satan influences through his darkness. Darkness (spiritually speaking) is not simply the absence of light. It is not nothingness. It is a real force with real power. If it were not so, Satan would have no power to influence and tempt except he literally whispers in our ears. Just as light holds the powers of life and sight, darkness holds the powers of death and blindness. The works of darkness and powers of darkness are spoken of in scripture. If darkness was nothingness, then it would have no power to influence work. Darkness is working a mighty work in this world, it is plain to see. I do not doubt it's power and influence, I have felt it and know that it is as real as light.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

Edited December 16, 2012 by pogi

[Maidservant]

Our moral agency is a matter of how we manage the faucets. . . . We are conductors learning to become generators.

I do agree with this and have often said this to myself although with slightly different words. I often say that we are AGENTS of good or AGENTS of evil. And I have thought that we are apprentices and not yet able to be 'sources'.

But I am learning some other things, I guess, that I still need to learn how it all fits together.

I am still not convinced on the "emanation" of evil per se, but that's a minor detail (in my mind) and I will learn on that and may very well change my mind. And I still refuse to crown any devil because I just wouldn't give any one evil being that much respect. We're all people. So if *I* who is not yet sufficiently mature to "generate good", how is it that one Satan is so amazing (in the opposite direction) that *he* can generate? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think we dig our own graves, create our own oppressions for ourselves and for others, if we consent to these kinds of things. Not that we don't get in over our heads with things we never meant to do and need help out, not that there aren't people (bodied and unembodied) that are stronger than we are, at least for a time until we find our strength. Not that we don't respond to the influence of others (good and bad). All of these things happen.

Even Christ and heavenly Father are people--they have just progressed farther than us. But I don't think that Christ HIMSELF is involved in my daily life necessarily--I am wondering on that. I know that he prepared the atonement and effected it. But Christ's work is done by US also--my son who gave me a blessing yesterday, my mom who loves me, the cub scouting I am a part of, my ancestors and friends from the other side of the veil. It's all us. Christ did not give me that blessing, my son did--my son willing to be good or to act according to his covenant, because of what we both learned from the gospel of Christ. We all take on the name of Christ. It's right there plain in the gospel. So is Christ HIMSELF EXACTLY influencing me? Only by the separation of many degrees and by being represented by those who love him and also I try to represent him to other people. So again--it's very plain to me how it works, although I don't expect everyone to agree nor do I expect that I have learned all I need to know and may come to other conclusions as I continue my study and my living. It's all US.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

Just a note that in the New Testament in the book of Revelation, John does name the Devil as Satan. But I will delve into that later. My question would be--is that a new or new-ish development at that time and writing that book, to connect the ideas so closely? And/or what is John drawing on in the past to do this.

Another thought that in the OT, people called upon God to be on their side against their enemies or at least deliverance and protection from enemies. The OT, and the Book of Mormon for that matter, have great themes of deliverance. But Satan and/or the devil was not the central piece of the opposition--the idea may have existed in some form, but it wasn't central or the grand binary in opposition to God. Even in the story of Adam and Eve, there was enmity produced, but not the grand doppelganger-ness of God settled upon the serpent. Rather, the serpent played a part, even, in the plan of God.

It's just all very interesting to me and it is a lot to work through.

I also want to know what kind of references to devil, Satan or Adversary or anything similar that have been made in General Conferences, say, in the last ten years. How is this being taught presently?

[CV75]

Darkness does emanate from Satan as light emanates from Christ.

I see a difference in where and how each obtains power that does not allow this happen: Satan “taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers (D&C 93:39; also verses 31, 32).” He entices us to give up and turn away from light by appealing to the carnal mind (2 Nephi 9:39). His power exists only to the extent God allows it to operate (JS-H 1:17), which seems to be only to the extent we allow it (2 Nephi 2:29; Mosiah 16:3; Moses 4:4). The power of Christ on the other hand, allows the light shine forth eternally and without restraint, dispelling the darkness for those who choose Him (D&C 88:49; Alma 19:6), whereas Satan's days and powers are limited (D& 43:31, 45:55, 84;100).

[pogi]

I see a difference in where and how each obtains power that does not allow this happen: Satan “taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers (D&C 93:39; also verses 31, 32).” He entices us to give up and turn away from light by appealing to the carnal mind (2 Nephi 9:39). His power exists only to the extent God allows it to operate (JS-H 1:17), which seems to be only to the extent we allow it (2 Nephi 2:29; Mosiah 16:3; Moses 4:4). The power of Christ on the other hand, allows the light shine forth eternally and without restraint, dispelling the darkness for those who choose Him (D&C 88:49; Alma 19:6), whereas Satan's days and powers are limited (D& 43:31, 45:55, 84;100).

Moses 7:26 "And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced."

This chain, and this darkness existed before Satan was created spiritually. It is a real power. Satan obtained this power the same way that we obtain the power of light, through obedience to it. He was at first a conductor of darkness, now he is a generator. Satan's days and powers are only limited over us to the extent that we follow the light, but he is not limited nor is his power in and over his followers, he never will be limited that way. So long as he has followers, he has real power. It is the same for God, his power is only existent to the extent that he has followers.

In other words, all of the scriptures that you have shared would be equally true if you changed the words light for dark, or dark for light, and God or Christ for Satan, and Satan for Christ or God.

[CV75]

Moses 7:26 "And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced."

This chain, and this darkness existed before Satan was created spiritually. It is a real power. Satan obtained this power the same way that we obtain the power of light, through obedience to it. He was at first a conductor of darkness, now he is a generator. Satan's days and powers are only limited over us to the extent that we follow the light, but he is not limited nor is his power in and over his followers, he never will be limited that way. So long as he has followers, he has real power. It is the same for God, his power is only existent to the extent that he has followers.

In other words, all of the scriptures that you have shared would be equally true if you changed the words light for dark, or dark for light, and God or Christ for Satan, and Satan for Christ or God.

Figuratively speaking, the chain veils the earth with darkness, meaning it serves as a barrier between the earth and the light of heaven. It is not generating darkness, but blocking light that is already present. While this results in great damage to things already created, Satan cannot create anythng new; darkness is not a generating power in and of itself (whereas light is).

As you mentioned, Satan's power is dependent on what his followers render unto him, and and I mentioned, to the scope within God grants him to operate. But I question whether God's power is limited by His followers or lack thereof, simply because He existed before there were any of us in a posiiton to follow Him, and then once there were, cast out those who would not.

[pogi]

Figuratively speaking, the chain veils the earth with darkness, meaning it serves as a barrier between the earth and the light of heaven. It is not generating darkness, but blocking light that is already present. While this results in great damage to things already created, Satan cannot create anythng new; darkness is not a generating power in and of itself (whereas light is).

As you mentioned, Satan's power is dependent on what his followers render unto him, and and I mentioned, to the scope within God grants him to operate. But I question whether God's power is limited by His followers or lack thereof, simply because He existed before there were any of us in a posiiton to follow Him, and then once there were, cast out those who would not.

Where else would darkness come from? It all comes either by or through Satan. I don't know that darkness or light can be created, in fact, I am certain that this is the case, it says so in the Pearl of Great Price. When I say "generate" perhaps a better word would be governs, or orchestrates.

The Book of Moses states that God's power is based in the honor which he receives. God's power of creation (except in having spirit children) only exists to the extent that he is honored. He doesn't "create" so much as he organizes by commanding obedient intelligences. The description of the creation states that Christ took unorganized matter (he did not create it out of thin air) and spoke and he "waited until they were obeyed". We know that all things have intelligence, even the earth itself. Miracles, such as moving mountains, are only acts of obedience. We learn from King Benjamin that even the dust of the earth obeys God. Finally, God could not be a God independent of a wife and child. Godhood is a parental position. Satan's power works in the exact same way, through obedience to him. Satan is only limited in power and creation in that he does not have a body to create spirit children, he has to steal children from others. That is why and how his power is limited compared to God's power. After the end of this life, Satan will be damned in that there will be no more children for him to steal, thus, no more increase in honor or power. God however will continue to progress eternally, having children and increase in glory and honor. That is the difference between damnation and eternal progression.

Edited December 17, 2012 by pogi

[pogi]

Another thought that in the OT, people called upon God to be on their side against their enemies or at least deliverance and protection from enemies. The OT, and the Book of Mormon for that matter, have great themes of deliverance. But Satan and/or the devil was not the central piece of the opposition--the idea may have existed in some form, but it wasn't central or the grand binary in opposition to God. Even in the story of Adam and Eve, there was enmity produced, but not the grand doppelganger-ness of God settled upon the serpent. Rather, the serpent played a part, even, in the plan of God.

God told Abraham in the Book of Moses that Satan is after the similitude of his Only Begotten. If that isn't testimony to his "doppelgänger-ness" I don't know what is. The higher you rise, the further you have to fall.

How often has God been the actor or laborer in his plan? Yet he is still the central piece. He has only revealed himself on few occasions, yet you see his face in his work. Give me a story of opposition to God, and I will show you the devils face. He may not be the sole actor, but he is the orchestrator. There are many angels and actors which have progressed God's work, but God is still orchestrating the whole thing. It's the same with the devil. He is the central piece of the opposition. He is the grandmaster and author of the secret combinations of darkness. He is the "father" of "angels." and the author of lies.

Edited December 17, 2012 by pogi

[CV75]

Where else would darkness come from? It all comes either by or through Satan. I don't know that darkness or light can be created, in fact, I am certain that this is the case, it says so in the Pearl of Great Price. When I say "generate" perhaps a better word would be governs, or orchestrates.

i can go with governed, as darkness is the absence of light, which is a condition governed by the rejection and abuse of one's own and others' agency.

The Book of Moses states that God's power is based in the honor which he receives.

You'll have to point this out for me--where does it say this? According to D&C 124 (verses 34, 39, 95), honor is granted from a higher God, which is what Satan was demanding of God in Moses 4:1.

[pogi]

i can go with governed, as darkness is the absence of light, which is a condition governed by the rejection and abuse of one's own and others' agency.

You'll have to point this out for me--where does it say this? According to D&C 124 (verses 34, 39, 95), honor is granted from a higher God, which is what Satan was demanding of God in Moses 4:1.

Darkness is the absence of light if you are speaking of photons. I am speaking of spiritual darkness, it is a real force with real power. The scriptures speak of it this way, only science speaks of darkness as the absence of light, and it is speaking of photons, not spirit force and power.

The scripture is in Moses 4:1 and 3. It explains it better in D&C 29:36. In it God states that his honor is his power.

[CV75]

Darkness is the absence of light if you are speaking of photons. I am speaking of spiritual darkness, it is a real force with real power. The scriptures speak of it this way, only science speaks of darkness as the absence of light, and it is speaking of photons, not spirit force and power.

The scripture is in Moses 4:1 and 3. It explains it better in D&C 29:36. In it God states that his honor is his power.

I see Moses 4:1 and 3 as saying that honor is obtained from the Father (and if He obtained it, it was from someone acting as His Father, not from His mixed bag of children). D&C 29:36 only indicates that God’s honor is God’s power, which, as I pointed out in the scriptures above, He grants His children and not the other way around.

We do grant Him our agency and in this way grant Him power in our lives and honor with our lives but He would be Who He Is regardless.

Satan lacks God’s honor and this kind of power, and the power he possesses to block the light is manifest only within the parameters the Lord permits (which I explained above) and according to the agency we withhold from God.

D&C 29 gets into the idea that darkness is the absence of light: Verse 29 (“…where I am they [the wicked] cannot come, for they have no power.”) is associated with verse 45 (“…For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil…”). The wicked cannot go where there is light, and remain where there is an absence of light (spiritual death, verse 41). Lesser degrees of glory result from not being willing to enjoy that fullness which one might have received (D&C 88:32).

[pogi]

I see Moses 4:1 and 3 as saying that honor is obtained from the Father (and if He obtained it, it was from someone acting as His Father, not from His mixed bag of children). D&C 29:36 only indicates that God’s honor is God’s power, which, as I pointed out in the scriptures above, He grants His children and not the other way around.

We do grant Him our agency and in this way grant Him power in our lives and honor with our lives but He would be Who He Is regardless.

Satan lacks God’s honor and this kind of power, and the power he possesses to block the light is manifest only within the parameters the Lord permits (which I explained above) and according to the agency we withhold from God.

D&C 29 gets into the idea that darkness is the absence of light: Verse 29 (“…where I am they [the wicked] cannot come, for they have no power.”) is associated with verse 45 (“…For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil…”). The wicked cannot go where there is light, and remain where there is an absence of light (spiritual death, verse 41). Lesser degrees of glory result from not being willing to enjoy that fullness which one might have received (D&C 88:32).

Thanks for your view point, I will have to think more about this. This idea that God receives his power through the honor of his creation came from a very interesting article I read some years back. I can't remember who wrote it, but it was very convincing at the time. I am totally willing to revisit this idea however.

The basis of the theory came from the fact that God would cease to be God if he failed to satisfy the demands of justice. The article asked the question, who is making the demands of justice that God must satisfy? He concluded that is his creation that has been perfectly obedient. They are making the demands of justice as we have not been perfectly obedient, and yet will be saved. Thus a savior was required to satisfy the demands of justice. All of creation loved Christ, because of this love, they allowed Christ to pay for our sins out of his loves for us. The demands of justice were satisfied, allowing God to be a fully just and merciful God. If it were not so, God would cease to be God as all of creation would cease to honor him and thus he would lose his power and cease to be God. I am butchering this, I am sure.

Eternal progression is thus nothing more than a continuation of the seeds, and thus an increase in honor and glory. There could be no progression without an increase in children. That is why Satan cannot progress in darkness, or honors of men, or glory of men., and will be damned because he has no body to procreate.

Like I said I am willing to revisit this idea. But, I still hold strong that darkness is an actual spiritual force that Satan works through. I have to go now, but will write more later.

[thesometimesaint]

God always votes for you. The Devil always votes against you. You break the tie.

[CV75]

This idea that God receives his power through the honor of his creation came from a very interesting article I read some years back.

I’m sure He does; and this is one kind of honor. As His children progress and become like Him and continue the pattern into eternity, He certainly enjoys additional honor from more exalted children as His stewardship expands.

The basis of the theory came from the fact that God would cease to be God if he failed to satisfy the demands of justice.

This is very interesting, and I certainly like the idea that because of our love we allow Christ to pay for our sins. But how does our demand for justice square with 2 Nephi 9:26, “…the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all…,” or Mosiah 2:38, “the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.”

Like I said I am willing to revisit this idea. But, I still hold strong that darkness is an actual spiritual force that Satan works through. I have to go now, but will write more later.

I look foward to it. As I've thoguht about it, one perspective is that spiritual light is different from physical light (making darkness an opposing power to light, and they are a compound in one); a second perspective is that light manifests in both physical and spiritual forms (D&C 88:11, making darkness the absence of it--the "compound in one" is presence/absence); and, a third perspective, that dawned on me as I was looking up scriptures for our conversation, might be that darkness is the lack of comprehending the light (D&C 88:49, 67), not the absence of the light that shines throughout all things, even in darkness (D&C 88: 7, 12, 13), and not an "anti-light" power that can cancel out eternal light.

[pogi]

This is very interesting, and I certainly like the idea that because of our love we allow Christ to pay for our sins. But how does our demand for justice square with 2 Nephi 9:26, “…the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all…,” or Mosiah 2:38, “the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.”

The explanation that I can remember from this article (I wish I still had it), is that God's creation, not so much his human creation, but the earth and universe, and all other spirit matter and intelligences are the ones demanding justice. Remember that all of creation was created spiritually before it was created physically. Also remember that all things have intelligence. It is the entirety of his creation that is demanding justice of God for our disobedience. If you think of the creation, God waited until all things were obeyed, and all of God's creation was completely and perfectly obedient, except for us. The mountains move, the seas divide, all things obey his command except for us. God does not magically and forcefully divide the waters, he simply asks it to move and they obey out of love and honor for him. That is how miracles happen, that is why when we act in his name and by his authority, all of creation obeys, it all obeys out of love for Christ. So, if you think of all of creation like perfectly obedient citizens, and think of us like disobedient citizens, and think of God like the merciful and just town sheriff, it might make more sense. The perfectly obedient citizens are demanding his justice (as your scriptures state it). If God were to give mercy to us without justice, all of creation would no longer honor his unfairness and God would cease to be God because his creation would cease to obey him. They would see no reason to obey, if his mercy would claim them without obedience. He cannot force his creation to obey, he must respect its agency. Without obedience, he would have no power over them to force them to obey, therefore he would loose all of his power. When he speaks, the mountains might stop moving, the seas might stop dividing etc. A monarch only has power so far as his subjects obey. It is the same concept.

So, true power, and God's power, is the ability to earn honor and glory through and by love, by offering balanced justice and mercy. There are obviously other ways to gain power and to get subjects to obey, if you think of all of the cruel dictators of the past, this is Satan's method of gaining power. It is real power through the influence of fear, blood, and horror. We are taught that this is how he reigns on this earth, through blood and horror. This is the source of his power and ability to influence. This is why Satan's power is limited in comparison to God's. Satan only has limited influence and power over mankind, while God has complete power and influence over all of creation (with the exception of mankind). Also, notice that "demands" is plural. If God is the one demanding justice, it would have read "the demand of justice." Then you have to ask yourself, if God is the one making the demand, who is he making the demand to? Himself? It sounds more like an appeal from citizens to a government figure for justice. You also have to ask yourself, how would God cease to be God? What is the source of his power if not through the honor of obedient subjects? His power obviously is not forceful or magical. No higher power could vest him with power to dictate, and force, using magic to make all of creation obey. God's power is limited in that he must respect agency, justice, and mercy, or he would cease to be God.

The atonement answered the demands of justice from these other intelligences, in that they all perfectly love and honor Christ their creator. Christ loves us, his disobedient creation, and wants to offer mercy to us. Christ hears the demands of justice and says "I understand your demands, but I love these who have disobeyed and don't want to lose them. If you love me, will you respect my love for them and allow me to offer mercy to them by offering myself as an answer to justice, that they may be saved through my sacrifice." Because of their love for Christ, they allow this to happen, thus Christ satisfied the demands of justice in order to offer mercy.

I realize that there may be many potential flaws in this theory that I have to reexamine, but it is still compelling to me.

Edited December 17, 2012 by pogi

[pogi]

I look foward to it. As I've thoguht about it, one perspective is that spiritual light is different from physical light (making darkness an opposing power to light, and they are a compound in one); a second perspective is that light manifests in both physical and spiritual forms (D&C 88:11, making darkness the absence of it--the "compound in one" is presence/absence); and, a third perspective, that dawned on me as I was looking up scriptures for our conversation, might be that darkness is the lack of comprehending the light (D&C 88:49, 67), not the absence of the light that shines throughout all things, even in darkness (D&C 88: 7, 12, 13), and not an "anti-light" power that can cancel out eternal light.

Interesting thoughts, I will have to respond later.

[CV75]

I realize that there may be many potential flaws in this theory that I have to reexamine, but it is still compelling to me.

This is a great explanation and is reminiscent of Moses 7:48, 61 and 64.

It acknowledges that God has placed the obedient in the hands of the disobedient, and there is so much they can take before they demand justice. This is a type of Christ’s mortal suffering at teh hands of teh wicked, to be followed by His taking vengeance in the end; it is also reminiscent of Moses 7:48, 61 and 64, where the earth is asking for relief from suffering through the atonement of its wicked overlords. This would make its suffering essential to its fulfilling the measure of its creation, which seems to be an unfair and bitter cup to swallow, but also to be rewarded with an eternal weight of glory.

However, where all things (all obedient intelligences) are one with God (D&C 84:100, 101), the Perfect Steward, and are in perfect alignment with His will, the “demands for justice" must ultimately be His, or at the very least no less so than all creation's.

[pogi]

However, where all things (all obedient intelligences) are one with God (D&C 84:100, 101), the Perfect Steward, and are in perfect alignment with His will, the “demands for justice" must ultimately be His, or at the very least no less so than all creation's.

Good point, I would agree with this.

As far as light goes, you are right, it is both physical and spiritual in nature (just like Christ). Its spiritual nature goes where its physical nature cannot "thy whole body shall be full of light" (Mat 6:22). Obviously the light of Christ shines in the deepest darkest caverns where no physical light shines. The spiritual nature of light is in all, and through all things yet can only be perceived by those who "let themselves see" or else "Seeing they see not" (Mat 13:13). We have both physical eyes and spiritual eyes spoken of in scripture.

D&C 93 seems to use light, truth, and knowledge interchangeably.

Darkness, on the other hand is spiritual in nature but not physical (just like Satan). D&C 93:24-25 "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning." Therefore, "the spirit of that wicked one" must be untruth, and lack of knowledge ("the darkness comprehended it not") and darkness. It veils the earth and makes its way into the hearts of every living man, as does the light. the question is, how can light and darkness occupy the same space such as our hearts? We do have both light and darkness in our hearts, as we have some understanding and yet some things we do not comprehend and are in darkness.

One possible theory is that light and darkness both fill the earth, as many scriptures suggest, yet occupy different wave lengths, or vibrate at different frequencies that allow both to occupy the same space without interacting. All energy is vibrations. I believe that there is light energy (or spirit) and dark energy (or spirit) each vibrating at different wavelengths. I believe that we ourselves vibrate at these different frequencies as our spiritual eyes tune in light or dark energy. It is like radio frequencies, we can hear different messages coming out of the same radio and floating around in the same space. The trick is to tune our spiritual eyes and keep them single to God's glory so that we comprehend the light and both see and hear the light and truth. We then are glorified ourselves and filled with that light energy and vibrate at that wavelength. That is how we feel the spirit of Christ through others, it is like they emanate it or conduct it. People may comment that they are "glowing" this is because they are vibrating at the same frequency as Christ's light energy or spirit. The opposite darkness can often be perceived in individuals as well as if they are emanating darkness and dark energy. This is because they are vibrating at the same frequency as Satan's dark energy or spirit. (This is my theory anyway).

This theory might explain the scripture, "the light shinneth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not." In other words, seeing, they see not and hearing they hear not. The light is shinning in darkness. All those in darkness have light shinning in and all around them, but they will not let themselves open their spiritual eyes to comprehend it, and thus are left in darkness. Our spiritual eyes are our tuners.

Spiritual light and darkness both have real power to influence, and both fill the earth. The one comes from Christ, the other from his brother who is his opposite similitude, Lucifer. That is how I think of light and darkness.

Edited December 18, 2012 by pogi

[CV75]

Darkness, on the other hand is spiritual in nature but not physical (just like Satan). D&C 93:24-25 "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning." Therefore, "the spirit of that wicked one" must be untruth, and lack of knowledge ("the darkness comprehended it not") and darkness. It veils the earth and makes its way into the hearts of every living man, as does the light. the question is, how can light and darkness occupy the same space such as our hearts? We do have both light and darkness in our hearts, as we have some understanding and yet some things we do not comprehend and are in darkness.

I think this might be the crux of the matter: light is spiritual, physical, and material; darkness is spiritual and physical but not material, as follows:

Man is spirit (D&C 93:33), and Christ is Spirit (D&C 93:9). They are material (D&C 131:7). As you pointed out, all creation is made of intelligence* (which is the light of truth—D&C 93:29), so light and intelligence must both be material as well. Beings that possess bodies and spiritual light will manifest physical light in the resurrection (though sometimes this phenomenon is manifest in mortality, such as in quickening and transfiguration).

* I’d like to interject here that I think some of creation is also made of element (D&C 93:33), and I’m not sure that element has agency to “demand justice” since it is material that is controlled by the possessing spirit. But let’s go with your idea about those creations that can obey by virtue of possessing intelligence and agency. In either case, Satan has no “element” (no body) but only “spirit.”

So Satan is also spirit. He is material as far as that goes. But where he cannot comprehend the light spiritually, he can only manipulate it physically and spiritually (D&C 129:8 might refer to either or both, but I suspect he only deceives his targets into “seeing” light that is not there), and otherwise interfere with our perception of spiritual light.

Where Christ is material and has physical and spiritual light (and both forms are fundamentally material), Satan is also material but lacks the light of Christ, which is both physical and spiritual light. What does he have in its place? For example, if the resulting darkness associated with him is the opposite of D&C 88:11, then we have:

“And the [unnamed substance in opposition to the substance called light] which darkeneth, which giveth you this substance, is through him who darkeneth your eyes, which is the same substance that dulleth your understandings; Which substance proceedeth forth from the presence of Satan to empty the Earth (as in Malachi 4:6)—The substance which is apart from all things, which giveth death to all things, which is the capriciousness by which all things lose direction, even the power of Satan who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of hell, who is cast out of all things.”

I can’t put a name on this substance. There is no opposite to any material thing, for that matter. Light is the substance that makes the opposite of darkness, which is illumination and brightness, but what substance makes darkness? It can’t be the fruit of the tree of knowledge since the Gods have it, and Satan taketh away light (D&C 93:39—and that through disobedience and tradition, not by introducing a substance), and does not distribute this unnamed substance. All I can come up with is that physical and spiritual darkness is the absence of physical, spiritual and material light, and there is no material involved.

I was actually hoping to come up with another option!

[pogi]

Satan is also material but lacks the light of Christ, which is both physical and spiritual light. What does he have in its place?

Material darkness. Something along the lines of dark matter perhaps? I'm not implying that this is the case, but something like dark matter that is imperceivable and fills all space just as light does.

I can’t put a name on this substance. There is no opposite to any material thing, for that matter. Light is the substance that makes the opposite of darkness, which is illumination and brightness, but what substance makes darkness?

We shouldn't think of darkness in the terms of physical perception or lack thereof. Darkness is not physical in the sense of human perception, it is spiritual. The substance is undetectable and unmeasurable like spirit matter is. I believe it is spirit matter. I think that in understanding the concept of opposition, we must not consider opposition to mean extreme opposites. For example, Satan is in opposition to Christ, yet they have many commonalities in that they are both brothers from the same God. They both exist. They both have spirit. They are not extreme opposites in that one exists and the other does not exist. The example of opposition in the book of Mormon includes sorrow in opposition to joy. They are in opposition to each other, yet they are both rooted in human emotion, and both have that in common. That is how I think we need to consider the opposition of light and darkness. They are both rooted in spirit, but are opposing spirit matter.

For example, we know that light can neither be created nor destroyed. If darkness is the extreme opposite of light, than we must conclude that darkness can be both created and destroyed. Surely this cannot be true. They must both be eternal matter. Also, if we are to conclude that darkness is nothingness and does not really exist, how does Satan use the "power of darkness" (Col 1:13) (something that does not really exist) to tempt us, bind us, deceive us, imitate light, etc.? How can something that does not exist have any power at all? They both have power to influence, which gives them real power. How does Satan influence, if not through the medium of darkness? It must exist for him to be able to use it. How could something that does not really exist cause Joseph Smith to say:

“… I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.” (JS—H 1:15.)

If the light of Christ is in all things and through all things, and darkness is the absence of light, how then can there be darkness in the earth at all if light is everywhere? How do we explain the following scriptures?

D&C 112:23 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face." Doesn't light cover the earth as well, and influence the minds of the people?

Job 5:14 They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night.

Job 29:3 by his light I walked through darkness;

It seems that light is everywhere, as well as darkness at the same time. Darkness and light must both fill the earth but exist on different planes or frequencies. We walk in the spiritual planes of light or darkness according to the heed that we give to the light or darkness. It seems that the only place that darkness does not exist is in the presence of God's immediate being and presence.

In the scripture that you offered which says that Satan taketh away light. This cannot be understood to say that Satan destroys light or causes less of it to exist, nor does it mean that he introduces new substance or material as both exist eternally (I believe) and fill the earth. It must be a figure of speech implying that Satan causes men through his influence of darkness to close their spiritual eyes and thus be blind to the light and begin their walk in the spiritual plane of darkness.

Edited December 19, 2012 by pogi

[CV75]

Material darkness. Something along the lines of dark matter perhaps? I'm not implying that this is the case, but something like dark matter that is imperceivable and fills all space just as light does.

I know I can get a bit “out there” but I’m still trying to at least loosely tie it to something that is taught in scripture.

We shouldn't think of darkness in the terms of physical perception or lack thereof.

If the light of Christ relates to both physical and spiritual perception (D&C 88:11), an opposing substance (if it exists--as if the opposite of an apple exists) would have to as well, but such a substance hasn’t been identified in scripture in the same way light has. But I see no problem with anyone believing it, either.

If the light of Christ is in all things and through all things, and darkness is the absence of light, how then can there be darkness in the earth at all if light is everywhere? How do we explain the following scriptures?

D&C 93:31 -- sheer refusal to see.

It must be a figure of speech implying that Satan causes men through his influence of darkness to close their spiritual eyes and thus be blind to the light and begin their walk in the spiritual plane of darkness.

I think 99% of it is a figure of speech, anyway!

Anyway, thank you for the exchange--if you have more thougths, I'll be happy to read them.