Will The Real Devil Please Stand Up: Sifting Through Truth And Tradition

[Maidservant]

I am starting this thread because I felt this issue was derailing the Pelagianism thread.

I am also going to use this as an opportunity to educate myself further, so I am not saying I know everything.

I will start by trying to post and quote several posts from the Pelagianism thread that began this exchange.

And then I think the ball is in my court to provide a reply, so I will do that as soon as I can although I have to go do some Cub Scouting pretty soon, may have to return later to finish the reply (and have to do the reading in the Book of Mormon that was requested).

But anyone with thoughts can certainly get the ball rolling more while I'm gone.

[Maidservant]

If you take the Old Testament at a glance, you get a gospel whose main effect is protection and prosperity in this life due to obedience to the laws of God; that the laws and God himself, takes care of us--we become his people, he becomes our God, and he does for us.

The symbols in the law of Moses describe an atonement whose effect is that of cleansing--human beings are not good/bad--they are clean/unclean. That which is unclean is divested from us due to the sacrifice(s), the negative energy/sin is burnt and then gone. Now we might say this is a precursor to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and indeed, there is this promise in the Old Testament as well.

In the story of Adam and Eve, the fruit is forbidden. It never says the fruit is bad. Just forbidden. It says that the process described by the partaking of the fruit leads to death. So the binary here is life/death (again, not good/bad). There is also the dichotomy of covered/uncovered (being uncovered resulted in shame). But still no good/bad as we tend to conceive of it in the modern age or even in the New Testament. The Adam and Eve story describes how the process man and woman engage in (with partaking of the forbidden fruit) is a work of WISDOM. It is a process of gaining, not losing. The Adam and Eve story also introduces enmity. Again, we might call enmity a bad thing (I think it is!) but still, I would suggest that this is a slight mistake. Enmity should be understood as itself and what it is trying to teach, instead of lumping it in the "bad" or "evil" category. (I once wrote a college essay about the invention of evil. Was not invented in the Adam and Eve story.) There is also a concept of a curse, but STILL this is not BAD. It simply brings the necessity of struggling with the matter of the earth in order to get the treasures from that struggle. All of this brings to mind a great trust being placed upon man and woman, rather than any punishment. Although there was the separation from God, so that's not fun. But this idea of the curse and of struggling with the earth (which I think means far more than being a farmer in order to get food) does lead us to understand the power than humans have for choice about who they will be and what they will do. Genesis 3:22 does use the (English words) good and evil, but it doesn't say much what they are, only that humans will know them BOTH. So I don't think that "evil" is equivalent with what was forbidden (although I am not advocating to go out and do drugs and all sorts of deathly actions, there are certainly bad things with deathly consequences in this world).

Job as a book is interesting, because you have the Adversary entering the courts of God and in our minds today, we just have a hard time wrapping our heads around that since we take the adversary as evil and why would God let him in (even though I think Job is a fictional account, still the concept as comfortable to the writer is interesting). But I don't think Job takes the Adversary as evil at least in his story--opposition, struggle, loss, yes. Evil, not necessarily.

Anyway, interesting subject, just giving some random thoughts.

To clarify: I absolutely think that evil exists because it is simply present in the world. But I am not necessarily or at present convinced by the idea of some cosmic evil essence or even Being--I think WE bring the evil. We choose. We create. We are the ones accountable for that.

[Maidservant]

A reply from TACENDA:

To clarify: I absolutely think that evil exists because it is simply present in the world. But I am not necessarily or at present convinced by the idea of some cosmic evil essence or even Being--I think WE bring the evil. We choose. We create. We are the ones accountable for that.

I tend to agree with this last paragraph. We can't blame our actions on the devil. Or those that say someone can be deceived by the adversary, I like what you've said here, thank you.

[Maidservant]

I agree with you that there are no good/bad people, and agree with a lot of what you have said. This last part however sounds like you are saying that there is no devil. Am I misunderstanding you?

[Maidservant]

I am still working through some ideas, so I don't know what I will conclude. But at present:

We are the gods and we are the devils.

Who else is there?

Are we saying there is one kingpin in charge of all the bad people and who whispers in my ear? Where did we get this idea? Is it really accurate, even after reading all the scriptures?

Well, kingpin isn't so far off, because certainly bad people who organize often take that model, so I wouldn't be surprised and if the kingpin takes for himself the title Devil, then who am I to say.

But who is he? He's a person. He may not have a body, but he's a person. I'm a person. We're all people. And if one kingpin existed at one time, is it the same one still at this exact moment? Do bad people who are going to do bad NEED a kingpin to be bad?

I do think there are evil spirits. I do think people can become deceived although I'm not sure what process that is, but I have lived through it. But I do question and challenge a lot of what we have come to imagine "THE DEVIL" to be, yes.

It's all us. We affect each other for good, we affect each other for evil. We do good acts, we do evil acts.

I should also say that I do not imagine a material universe independent or outside of Being, like a stage where Beings play out their eternities. For me, Being is the fundamental and all things arise from that, so we are constantly creating our reality (in connection with each other, of course, it's not a solitary venture).

So I guess I would ask you -- what is the definition of devil in your head and then I can answer whether I accept that concept.

There is evil.

Added: I also think we abdicate too much responsibility sometimes. That surely there are people living and dead who would love to influence us to do evil, and we go with that, saying, the devil tempted me. Instead of taking back that power and responsibility and saying, it is me.

However, I also have had the personal experience of being influenced by other spirits, some bad, and I had to learn what was happening, become aware of it, become aware that is was NOT ME, and, again, take back my choices and my power and get back with the Spirit of God. But was this THE DEVIL? Or just people without bodies doing the only thing they can do for who they are, either aware or unaware of exactly what they are doing? (Maybe they are in traps, too.)

[Maidservant]

A reply from MFBUKOWSKI:

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

It's all us.

Yep.

What else could it be? God is a Man.

“I am thee and thou art me and all of one is the other.”- Hemingway

[Maidservant]

Then POGI'S most recent answer to me to which I owe the reply:

sted 9 hours ago

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

We are the gods and we are the devils.

This is very pretty and poetic, but is premature. We are yet mortals.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Who else is there?

A big long family tree stretching through the eternities.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Are we saying there is one kingpin in charge of all the bad people and who whispers in my ear? Where did we get this idea? Is it really accurate, even after reading all the scriptures?

Do you believe in opposition in all things? If there is one kingpin for good who whispers in my ear, doesn't it makes sense that there would be one kingpin of evil whispering in my ear?

2 Nephi 2:16 "Man cannot act for himself save it be he is enticed by the one or the other."

Read all of 2 Nephi chapter 2 and tell me what you think about the idea of the devil after reading.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

So I guess I would ask you -- what is the definition of devil in your head and then I can answer whether I accept that concept.

The devil is my brother Lucifer who fell from grace for trying to take God's honor and power. He was cursed for tempting and deceiving Adam and Eve. He stole away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven and wants us all to become miserable like unto himself. There is a light which emanates from Christ that influences us all. It is the power of good, it is the force by which all things are governed. There is a darkness which emanates from the devil which is in direct opposition to the light of Christ. It is the power of evil and influences all of us, it is the force of destruction and misery. The devil is the one who will be held captive in the millennium and released afterwards to tempt and battle with man and God one last time. The devil is that evil spirit who whispers in your ear "I am no devil, for there is none" (2 Nephi 28:22).

Who is it that is abdicating responsibility? Saying that the devil tempted me does not free one from responsibility. If your friend tempts you to kill another man and you do it, are you free from responsibility because he tempted you? I have never heard anybody seriously use that excuse. What you are proposing is that we should believe that we are the source of evil itself. There is perhaps no more destructive belief than that belief. That is pure toxic shame. It is not the belief that you did bad, but that you are bad. What good can come from that belief? The belief that you are the source of bad and that you are bad is the single most destructive and damning belief one could possibly have. The only belief that is perhaps equally destructive is the belief that we are the source of good. We are not the source of evil, but we do invite evil into our lives and into the lives of others, just as we are not the source of good, but we do invite good into our lives and into the lives of others. One day we may become evil or good, but that day has not come yet.

There is perhaps no more clear teaching in scripture than that of the reality of God and his adversary.

[DH]

You're looking for the real devil?

What can I do for you?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The scriptures make it clear that there is a being, an angel fallen from the heavenly courts, who tempts us- but the grand secret he tries to hide from us is that he is utterly powerless. satan is only as powerful as the choices we make and the power we give to him.

So the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yes, there IS an actual "devil". Yes, WE are the ones that create the evil around us.

[Maidservant]

I also wish to state that I am NOT equating The Devil with Satan or the Adversary or with opposition or with deception or with Lucifer or with any other similar concept. My very examination of the issue for myself is to separate ideas that should not be put together. So if people use the word devil has a handy bit for any of the other concepts, then we are already going to be not on the same page, because I take words very carefully.

The Old Testament in English does not use the word devil. It does have a few places where it speaks of "devils" and which I am not perfectly clear what they were thinking when they made these descriptions. However, it seems that in the record we have at least, that the devil was not the villain in the Old Testament--rather it was the false gods to whom terrible sacrifices were made; and it was the uncleanness and captivity that a person would experience in this lifetime because of disobeying God's laws.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Maidservant

[Maidservant]

You're looking for the real devil?

What can I do for you?

[Maidservant]

The scriptures make it clear that there is a being, an angel fallen from the heavenly courts, who tempts us- but the grand secret he tries to hide from us is that he is utterly powerless. satan is only as powerful as the choices we make and the power we give to him.

So the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Yes, there IS an actual "devil". Yes, WE are the ones that create the evil around us.

I will be discussing this fallen angel story more as the thread progresses; and anyone can add thoughts to this as well. This is one of the things I am not sure is meant to be taken as ONE PERSON or BEING, but is it not a symbolism? And do not all symbolisms find their way back to telling us who WE are? I have found in my study and my experiences that they are. But again, worth examining again which we can do here in the thread.

Yes, I think I more or less agree with you with the rest of what you said.

[pogi]

I also wish to state that I am NOT equating The Devil with Satan or the Adversary or with opposition or with deception or with Lucifer. My very examination of the issue for myself is to separate ideas that should not be put together. So if people use the word devil has a handy bit for any of the other concepts, then we are already going to be not on the same page, because I take words very carefully.

The Old Testament in English does not use the word devil. It does have a few places where it speaks of "devils" and which I am not perfectly clear what they were thinking when they made these descriptions. However, it seems that in the record we have at least, that the devil was not the villain in the Old Testament--rather it was the false gods to whom terrible sacrifices were made; and it was the uncleanness and captivity that a person would experience in this lifetime because of disobeying God's laws.

You have to take into account all scripture to get a more clear picture.

Moses 4:4 "And he became, Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to decieve and to blind men, and to lead them captive at this will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice."

Edited December 15, 2012 by pogi

[pogi]

There is a good entry in the Bible Dictionary:

Devil. The English word devil in the KJV is used to represent several different words in Greek, i.e., slanderer, demon, and adversary, and Hebrew, i.e., spoiler. The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37). They were cast out of heaven, and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14:12–15; Rev. 14:4–9; 2 Ne. 2:17; 9:8; D&C 29:36–38; 76:25–26; 93:25; Moses 4:1–4;Abr. 3:27–28).

Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical teaching that the devil is a reality and that he does strive to lead men and women from the work of God. One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.

Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture (Matt. 9:32; 12:22; Mark 1:24; 5:7;Luke 8:30; Acts 19:15; cf. Mosiah 3:6). Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to his disciples (Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Luke 10:17; Acts 5:16;D&C 84:67).

The devil is called the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11); the adversary (1 Pet. 5:8); Beelzebub, meaning the prince of the devils (Mark 3:22); the wicked one (Matt. 13:38); the enemy (Matt. 13:39); Lucifer (Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:26); Satan (Rev. 12:9); prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2–3); Perdition (D&C 76:26); son of the morning (D&C 76:26–27); that old serpent (Rev. 12:9; D&C 76:28); the great dragon (Rev. 12:7–9); a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44); a liar from the beginning (D&C 93:25); and the accuser (Rev. 12:10).

He is miserable in his situation, and “stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness” (2 Ne. 9:9). He tries to imitate the work of God by transforming himself nigh unto an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:12–15; 2 Ne. 9:9; D&C 128:20). He is also a worker of miracles, by which he deceives many upon the earth (Rev. 13:1–15). In fact, the scripture says he deceives the whole world (Rev. 12:9). He can cite scripture to make his point seem plausible (Matt. 4:1–11). All of this is his scheme to make man miserable like himself. Protection against the influence of the devil is found by obedience to the commandments and laws of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of all the prophets and apostles is that truth, righteousness, and peace shall in the end prevail over error, sin, and war; the faithful shall triumph over all their afflictions and enemies, and shall triumph over the devil. There shall be a complete and lasting victory of righteousness over wickedness on this earth, which will be done by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[pogi]

Something that we don't talk very much of is how Lucifer became the devil. If we cannot choose, save we are enticed by the one or the other, who enticed Lucifer to rebel? It is hard enough to grasp the concept that there is no beginning of good and of Gods, is there also no beginning of evil and of devils? Surely ours is not the original devil. If there are endless Gods before our Father, there must be endless devils who tempted and tried these Gods before they could become Gods. If there are other devils, they must be spirit children of Gods. Therefore, there must first be a God before a devil can exist, but at the same time, there must be a devil before a God can exist if the plan of salvation is the same for all. This idea of no beginning is simply too much to grasp. It all gets so confusing!

If this devil who tempted Lucifer exists, would he not be in outer darkness somewhere? If so, how did he have access to Lucifer? Does this mean that the pre-mortal life was somehow in conjunction with outer darkness where intelligences, pre-mortal spirits, and devils abide? So many questions that I am interested to find out about one day.

Edited December 15, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

God and Satan both work through people. I am not saying they are not "real" of course they are.

But for all practical purposes all we see of Satan is some crazy guy shooting children, all we see of God are the acts of Jesus- a human like us, the "Son of Man".

But we are God and Satan's hands and arms and bodies. Where one stops and the other starts becomes a moot point. They are in us- we are in them.

[mfbukowski]

Something that we don't talk very much of is how Lucifer become the devil.

Same thing that makes us the devil.

Pride. "WHO are YOU to tell ME what to do??!! I am gonna do it MY way!!"

It's all linked to agency. No agency no evil. No agency no good. That is the brilliance of the story of the fall of Satan. His way was to do away with agency but then there would be no good and no evil.

His plan was results without responsibility. We would all get stuff without deserving it.

Gosh that sounds familiar.....

[pogi]

Same thing that makes us the devil.

I am no devil. Not yet, and hopefully never will be. If pride is what made the devil the devil, who enticed the devil to be prideful? He did not invent pride, someone had to teach him how to be prideful, just like Satan teaches us to be prideful.

"I am gonna do it MY way!!" We like to believe that we are doing things our way, but it is only the devils way. It must have been the same for the devil. We don't create new ways in regard to good and evil, we simply follow old ones. We hearken to one or the other.

You say "no agency no evil or good", but I say, no evil or good, no agency. It works both ways. There must have been an evil presence tempting Lucifer for him to have agency to choose evil and pride.

[pogi]

But we are God and Satan's hands and arms and bodies. They are in us- we are in them.

Figuratively speaking, yes. Literally speaking, that would be equivalent to both being possessed by them and possessing them at the same time.

Edited December 15, 2012 by pogi

[Tacenda]

So maybe it all boils down to, if I don't believe in a devil, I'm Athiest. But if I do then I'm not? Or have I simplified? I worry about it because I'm sick of worrying about the bogey man, devil. But don't want to become Agnostic or Athiest. It's a quandry.

[pogi]

So maybe it all boils down to, if I don't believe in a devil, I'm Athiest. But if I do then I'm not? Or have I simplified? I worry about it because I'm sick of worrying about the bogey man, devil. But don't want to become Agnostic or Athiest. It's a quandry.

Technically you could still be a theist and not believe in the devil. He is real though. Why would the existence of the devil shake your faith in God? You don't need to doubt your experiences with God because you have concerns about the idea of the devil. You should equally not doubt your experiences with the devil, that is precisely what he wants you to do. You can't avoid him by not believing in him. Believe it or not, he is real.

You don't need to worry about the devil, God will prevail, simply hearken to Him.

Edited December 15, 2012 by pogi

[Calm]

He did not invent pride, someone had to teach him how to be prideful, just like Satan teaches us to be prideful.

Have you been around little kids? Pride is a natural state of humanity, even those with low self esteem often operate with a twisted pride pushing them (they are too horrible for others to love, too evil for Christ's Atonement to heal, etc....pretty magnificient being that bad). Edited December 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Have you been around little kids? Pride is a natural state of humanity, even those with low self esteem often operate with a twisted pride pushing them (they are too horrible for others to love, too evil for Christ's Atonement to heal, etc....pretty magnificient being that bad).

This is all true because of the fall, Satan's finger print is in it. It simply doesn't make sense that there are Gods before our God and no devils. Agency cannot exist without opposition, so who presented the opposition to Lucifer? Who presented the opposition to our God, before he became God? Where did this darkness emanate from? It has always existed and always will. Just as light emanates from heavenly beings, so too does darkness emanate from beings.

Edited December 15, 2012 by pogi

[Calm]

This is all true because of the fall, Satan's finger print is in it. It simply doesn't make sense that there are Gods before our God and no devils.

I thought Satan couldn't tempt the innocent.

http://www.lds.org/e...ildren?lang=eng

There is no such thing as original sin as such is defined in the creeds of Christendom. Such a concept denies the efficacy of the atonement. Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)...

Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever. When our scriptures say that “children are conceived in sin,” they are using words in an entirely different way than when the same language is recited in the creeds of the world. The scriptural meaning is that they are born into a world of sin so that “when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.”...

They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)

I am not saying there was no one out there who had rejected God before Lucifer, just saying that I don't believe that it was necessary for there to be someone whispering in his ear telling him to do wrong. The opposition is within ourselves. That is what we have to learn, which side of ourselves do we want to keep for eternity, those attributes that allow us to be one with God or those attributes with draw us away from God.

We are taught we were in the presence of God prior to coming to earth. Explain to me please how some unclean being, someone who had fully rejected God (which is what makes someone a devil) was able to exist in his presence when we are taught that no unclean thing can tolerate that.

Pride is essentially believing that your own wants and desires are more important than anything else, you figuratively see the world revolving around you, everything is an extension of you or of no value to you. This is an infant's POV taken to the extreme.

Edited December 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[Maidservant]

Then POGI'S most recent answer to me to which I owe the reply:

sted 9 hours ago

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

We are the gods and we are the devils.

This is very pretty and poetic, but is premature. We are yet mortals.

Well, I can see why you say that it is premature, but here is the thing. In my recent learning, I have stopped thinking about the future and the past and started realizing what the scriptures tell us about NOW, and I maintain that right now, what happens on this earth, is up to us! We are the ones creating. Whether God is present or whether the adversary or devil is present; whether good or evil is present in any given situation--is US. If we harm another or love another--we did that. If we harm another, the other may say, "That was the devil" but really it was us. If we love another, the other may say, "God was there"--but it was us. And for the record--I am learning this FROM the scriptures and temple and life or as I am understanding it. I understand that you and I may not agree on some items, but I am not challenging the gospel, I am challenging my traditional understanding which is NOT REALLY the gospel, or at least examining our traditions to see if there are things I am believing that are only traditions, so that I can GET to the gospel.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Who else is there?

A big long family tree stretching through the eternities.

That is MY point--see my statement above that you quoted.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Are we saying there is one kingpin in charge of all the bad people and who whispers in my ear? Where did we get this idea? Is it really accurate, even after reading all the scriptures?

Do you believe in opposition in all things? If there is one kingpin for good who whispers in my ear, doesn't it makes sense that there would be one kingpin of evil whispering in my ear?

2 Nephi 2:16 "Man cannot act for himself save it be he is enticed by the one or the other."

Read all of 2 Nephi chapter 2 and tell me what you think about the idea of the devil after reading.

I do believe in opposition in all things. I do not believe that opposition that is in all things is always a reference to evil. It can be. Is gravity evil? And yet this is the opposition that a tree must struggle against in order to become tall, to become what it is. It cannot BE tall without the gravity, and yet the gravity is PULLING IT DOWN. It is a lovely mystery.

2 Nephi does list several things that I would tend to put in the category of evil, or at least unrighteousness as it says.

I don't think there is one kingpin for good who whispers in my ear. I experience the Spirit, which is not a Being but an energy (although it proceeds from Beings, or as I understand). I experience those good spirits who surround me, many of whom are from my family and ancestry, who do all good for me from the other side of the veil and no doubt give me good advice (into my ear).

I have re-read 2 Nephi and I think I will bring up some things individually in other posts. I think it says a lot of things. Keeping in mind that these words and thinking were before New Testament times. But interestingly you'll notice that the only place Lehi brings up a single individual as responsible for the evil or at least the lies in a situation was in the specific experience of Adam and Eve. Lehi does not discuss how that same individual is responsible for our personal choice situations. In fact, Lehi manages the discussion of evil or similar items without recourse to a single devil Being. But I will post more on a couple of items I noticed. But this is what I mean--we don't read what is actually IN the passages (i.e. that there is no reference to a single devil EXCEPT in the example of the Adam and Eve story Lehi brings up)--we just assume what it in there based on the narrative we already know. No problem with that most of the time, but I am always interested in examination for what is plainly there--and not there.

Maidservant, on 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

So I guess I would ask you -- what is the definition of devil in your head and then I can answer whether I accept that concept.

The devil is my brother Lucifer who fell from grace for trying to take God's honor and power. He was cursed for tempting and deceiving Adam and Eve. He stole away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven and wants us all to become miserable like unto himself. There is a light which emanates from Christ that influences us all. It is the power of good, it is the force by which all things are governed. There is a darkness which emanates from the devil which is in direct opposition to the light of Christ. It is the power of evil and influences all of us, it is the force of destruction and misery. The devil is the one who will be held captive in the millennium and released afterwards to tempt and battle with man and God one last time. The devil is that evil spirit who whispers in your ear "I am no devil, for there is none" (2 Nephi 28:22).

Who is it that is abdicating responsibility? Saying that the devil tempted me does not free one from responsibility. If your friend tempts you to kill another man and you do it, are you free from responsibility because he tempted you? I have never heard anybody seriously use that excuse. What you are proposing is that we should believe that we are the source of evil itself. There is perhaps no more destructive belief than that belief. That is pure toxic shame. It is not the belief that you did bad, but that you are bad. What good can come from that belief? The belief that you are the source of bad and that you are bad is the single most destructive and damning belief one could possibly have. The only belief that is perhaps equally destructive is the belief that we are the source of good. We are not the source of evil, but we do invite evil into our lives and into the lives of others, just as we are not the source of good, but we do invite good into our lives and into the lives of others. One day we may become evil or good, but that day has not come yet.

There is perhaps no more clear teaching in scripture than that of the reality of God and his adversary.

Okay. Yes, we will differ on this. I don't necessarily consider the portrayal of the fall of Lucifer or of the council in heaven, etc, to be a historical moment. I believe it is a representation, a symbolism, which we are to understand by the keys of the Spirit and I find it to apply to what we as humankind are doing now. I consider the war in heaven to be taking place now, on the earth. I know that I will differ from almost everyone on this, but again, that is what I think the story itself says about itself and that is the purpose for which the story exists--to hold layers of information that we need to be able to understand our purpose on this earth. I don't think it purports to give the historical details of our previous life and I think that to the degree with begin and end with our understanding of it being historical, then we will actually miss what it is meant to do.

I agree there is the light of Christ. I am not sure that there is an energy that is the power of the devil or if it is the ABSENCE of the light, but in any case, either as an energy or an absence there are real effects of captivity and misery (2 Ne 2:29). We do have to be living by this light of Christ, by the Spirit, with the companionship of the Holy Ghost--OR . . . we are not. And there are consequences for either choice.

I agree that Satan will be bound--but "he" will be bound FROM our hearts! To me, this means a lot more than just there is one guy that we are finally gonna put in a jail cell somewhere. It means that WE are the ones who will learn (through the atonement of Christ) to become who we are born to be--children of God, Gods, and a family.

While you are free to frame what I am saying as that we are the "source" of evil and that we are "bad"--and no wonder you challenge what I am saying on that basis--please know that from my mind at least this is not what I am saying and I don't think this is a consequence of what I am saying. First of all, I question the need to discuss "source"--again, it's just us. We are people with choices. As soon as we choose, THAT is the reality we are living. THAT is the reality we visit upon others (because we always affect others, we don't choose in a vacuum). I am not saying we are bad OR good--I'm saying we choose and as soon as we choose, THAT is the way the world around us IS--until we choose something different. I'm not BAD because I used to yell at my kids all the time--but I'm sure my children experienced hell. But I brought some evil, misery and opposition into their lives. But I LEARNED, STRUGGLED, REPENTED, GOT MORE SPIRIT and HELP FROM THE ATONEMENT--until I could choose good and don't yell any more. I created that bit of heaven. Could I do it by myself without the spirit? No. But I am still the one who chooses, who is willing, who submits. I am an AGENT (representative or representation) of good or evil, based on my actions and choices. Is "THE DEVIL" even allowed in my home? He is NOT. But *I'm* there. I guess I am less concerned about whether as a BEING I am good or evil, but rather taking the point of view of what happens in the WORLD when we as creators, agents and actors make our choices--a good or evil WORLD or HOME.

Of course there is real evil out there (not yelling at kids), like human trafficking and torture and things like this. And I'm sure there are many beyond the veil who are influencing people to do these things. But it's all us--the evil spirits are beings with choice, also, or once had, maybe too far gone now. I don't know.

I know we are fathoming out the differences of what we are thinking, but I appreciate a lot of what you are saying and agree with most of it. I just want to make sure what is truth and what is tradition, for myself. And I know you want the same. So it is interesting to hash it out and share our insights.