Does God "Kill" People

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Then until God condescends to tell me what His grand purpose is for letting people get smeared into bloody pulps in car accidents, I'm going to cry about it like the ignorant child I am.

[bluebell]

Then until God condescends to tell me what His grand purpose is for letting people get smeared into bloody pulps in car accidents, I'm going to cry about it like the ignorant child I am.

Nothing wrong with that. It's what kids do. It's an appropriate reaction.

We are kids when it comes to our maturity level and understanding compared to God's and He knows that. I handle it when my kids hate me for a while for something I have to let them experience because i understand where they are coming from. I believe God's the same way.

In my thinking, it's why faith is so important to Him. He knows we don't understand much of what He does-that we just can't yet-so He asks us to have faith, to trust. He knows we are going to cry about things and be mad at Him sometimes because our understanding is so cloudy, but as long as we trust Him, He can work with that. As long as we continue to trust Him, He can help us to mature and develop until we DO understand.

[Ahab]

A close friend is suffering a serious illness, it is likely to curtail his life. I’m spending a lot of time wrestling with the sometimes trite response ‘it all happens for a reason,’ or ‘it’s in His hands.’

Times like that are hard, and while I feel compassion for you and your friend I think it will do you both good to realize that this "mortality" thing is only a very short phase of our eternal existence and we'll only have to go (or get to go) through all of this once. After this there will be no more sorrow or death, for us.

Does God kill people?

He can, and has, and will, on occasion. You don't want to see him when he is angry.

Or does nature?

What do you mean by that? ...our mortal nature, as we are now? God did warn us that we would die, through Adam and Eve.

If it’s nature why hope and pray for a change in outcome?

Prayer is what we call a conversation with God, and we usually talk with him to tell him what we want to happen. We just need to try to make sure that our will is also the will of our Father in heaven.

Or give blessings of healing?

Because that's what we want to happen. We usually don't want anyone to suffer or go through any hard times, even if we may be able to learn something beneficial to us or others who go through those experiences.

If, on the other hand God does retain power over death, does that also mean God can choose the moment of our passing?

He can, but that doesn't necessarily mean he always does. We're usually on the cause/effect system, by default, unless God intervenes to make something "unusual" happen which we usually refer to as a miracle.

If so, that leads to some unpleasant scenarios.

Yes, but if we never went through any "unpleasant" scenarios how much do you suppose we would learn about our own mortality? We're going through this for a reason, otherwise we wouldn't be going through it.

I get on a plane, reassured that if it’s not my time to go, I’ll be safe. But is that the case in reality, and if so, is it for every person on every plane?

If it's not the time to go, that means it's not the time for going, doesn't it? Otherwise if it was your time you would be going.

Did every bullet in WW1 (and every conflict before and since) get guided by angels to find its target or miss it?

No. The cause/effect system dictates that if someone fires a gun with a bullet in it then the bullet will usually go to where the gun was being pointed. An angel could intervene, for some reason, but by default there will be a "usual" effect for the gun being fired.

Did the drunk driver who cut down a pregnant mother before wrapping himself around a tree get prompted to drink one beer too many?

Prompted by who? Someone may have prompted that action, but too many beers in a person has a "usual" effect for that action.

Did the tsunami that flattened South East Asia few year ago, killing millions get triggered by God?

Do you understand what "usually" causes tsunamis? God may have caused it, but then again it may have just been another one of the "usual" effects caused by our planet in its fallen condition.

And if so...

And if not?

Can we say that every person dies at the moment of His choosing?

Can we say that God chooses everything we do?

And if so...

And if not?

If the answer is no, He doesn’t ‘make’ it happen, why do we seek to trust Him to protect us from harm?

Because we want him to help us? Or because we want him to do what we want him to do?

(I've exceeded my quote limit, switching to bold text now)

Why would He provide protection for His LDS ‘elect’ but turn a blind eye to others.

I never said he does.

I can’t believe some of us have a privileged power or protection over death.

Well, I can tell you one thing. Some of us have bodyguards, and some of us don't.

We either all do (in which case every person dies at God’s chosen moment of flicking the switch) or none of us do.

Or some of us do. There can be and usually are exceptions to the general rules.

I can’t see why there would be favouritism.

Suppose some of us goes into a war zone where people are firing guns and other weapons all over the place, and some of us don't go into areas like that either because God has explicitingly warned us not to go into areas like that or because we have the good sense (some might call that the light of Christ) telling us that we shouldn't go into places like that. Is that what you would call an instance of favouritism? What if God wanted someone to die, like Osama Bin Laden, and he just didn't warn him to flee or stay away from those places?

Are Angels really guarding us?

Could they guard at least some of us, if they wanted to guard us?

Close friends talk of a motorbike accident when they were expecting their first child. They describe the feeling of the motorbike being slowly lowered to the ground and having no injury and the baby being healthy. They went on to have several more children. Was the motorbike really carefully lowered to the floor by a greater power? Or were they just lucky? Could they just have easily have died an instant death resulting in all kids never existing? And if he provided that protection for them… why not others? Are some people’s lives (and the potential onward impact they might have) so meaningless and insignificant that they die when nature chooses, but the special ones live on? Are there commandments we live that qualify us for the special privilege?

God has told us that all blessings he gives us are contingent upon abiding the law of that blessing, meaning there is something to the cause/effect system. If we go into a war zone, or onto a road where something dangerous could happen, we should be prepared for the fact that certain dangerous things can "usually" happen.

A recent conference talk gave the ‘miracle’ of 3 kids being saved from the Haiti earthquake: http://www.lds.org/g...-of-me?lang=eng

A sister gave a recent talk of paying her tithing, buying a computer she couldn’t afford to fulfil her calling and then getting a gift of the exact amount she spent on the computer.

Peope talk of lost keys on a scout camp being lost and found after prayer.

Why would God intervene for 3 kids but leave 1000s to die? Why would God trouble himself with the cost of a PC or lost keys, when a storm blows into Eastern USA killing many. Does God intervene? Or do we rationalise the pain of death and disappointment by convincing ourselves that the pain is part of a greater purpose and all in His hands after all?

God can intervene, but then again God can also just let the "usual" effect to happen from the usual "cause" in a situation.

In all cases I think it's best to just be as prepared as we can be for what will happen.

[canard78]

Thanks, canard78. And yep, the Weeping God is a vital bit of Restoration. Still (though I love Nibley's book on the subject and plan to read the Givens' soon), I don't think that Enoch's story is a successful theodicy if taken entirely literally, since God still sends the Floods.

(On the other hand, I think that Santillana and Dechend are correct in noting that the reason there is exactly zero evidence of a literal planet-covering Flood is because the worldwide mythical "floods" are heuristic teaching devices representing times of chaos and astronomical observations. Certainly I think much of the Adam and Eve story is "figurative as far as the man and woman are concerned", and we are not punished for Adam's transgression, which did not result in original sin; we're responsible for our own Falls, thenkyewverymuch.)

Which is the Nibley book on the subject?

I agree that the earth foundational stories are best understood as parables taught as history to give them more weight.

[canard78]

In general the world divides into two main groups Theists and Atheists, and if you count Agnostics maybe a third. I admit I'm biased, but I don't see how it could be anything but a shot at religion. Moreover Everyone rationalizes their behaviors or they stop doing those behaviors. Either by choice or by force.

I said nothing about the Communists ideology, just one of its more infamous practitioners. There are plenty of non Communists that have very bad behaviors. I've always assumed that you are a very moral caring person. I always assume the best motives until proven otherwise. So that's my assumption base.

I don't do "gotcha" questions. I'm not that smart.

But this a question Atheists can easily side step. There is no God, they say, so he can't possibly kill people. Therefore all deaths are caused by man or nature.

This is not a question of whether people are killed in the name of God but whether Theists consider the moment of death to be at God's choosing. Regardless of the obvious earthly cause of death did God cause it or choose to not intervene when he had the power to? The third option is that he (by his or the universe's rules) is powerless to intervene when the causes of deaths happen.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Enoch the Prophet by Nibs. Great book, but a little dated now and not ultimately successful as theodicy, I think. Still worth a read.

[canard78]

What if we're in Satan's world right now? Does that make sense to some that struggle to know why HF looks on. Maybe his hands are tied?

I don't think I'd be inclined to believe this. I don't consider death to be of Satan's doing. He is powerless beyond the whispered influence he attempts. Neither do I consider God to have given Satan power while limiting his own.

I don't see this idea in our theology anywhere and it seems quite a despondent view of the world.

[canard78]

Does God kill people? Yes, God kills people. Flood of Noah, Sodom.

Does Nature kill people? Yes, nature does. Apart from storms, earthquakes and so forth, there are many many animals which kill humans.

Does God allow nature to kill people? Yes.

There's a very short list of God directly 'zapping' people and most are in the early Old Testament and therefore probably not factually accurate (in my view). Even among those, if they are factual, most are nature's events attributed to God. A flood caused by heavy rain is nature attributed to God. Sodom destroyed by fire/earthquake/a large meteor (who knows) is attributed to God.

You seem to suggest we die at a time of nature's choosing (storms, animals or even cancer, which is a biological, natural, defect). If that's the case, why put trust in God at all? If he stands by letting nature and man kill his children, what protection should we seek from him.

[blackstrap]

Have you ever seen the results of a child that has been given everything he wants whenever he wants it? Have you seen the outcome to the kids when a mother is constantly hovering and never allowing the kid to suffer the least bit of discomfort and making excuses for any behavior. I have. It is sad.

[canard78]

Death and suffering is just hard, especially when it happens to us-which shouldn't make a difference because if something's true when all the bad stuff is happening to other people, then it's still just as true when we are the ones who are suffering, but we are seldom that rational.

Sometimes i think it's best to concentrate on the smaller picture-the one we are a part of-because it's the only picture where we know all the parts and pieces because we are living it. It's almost impossible to make sense out of some huge tragedy because we may only see 1% of everything that took place. We just don't have enough information to make it all make sense. So i say, don't try.

Don't try to make a billion deaths make sense. We can't possibly know everything that transpired in each of those billion lives leading up to the moment. We can't know the details of their last breathes, their own or friends prayers, what they felt, how they were comforted or felt abandoned, what choices (theirs or others) lead to the end, or anything else. We just don't know enough to judge what God was doing when a billion people died, let alone to try to understand why He did it.

Instead, try to see what's transpiring in our own lives when death comes too close for comfort. That's certainly within our means, and seems to be vastly more informative for us anyway. That's how i approach it anyway.

I'm not worrying about a billion deaths as a collective deaths collectively, I'm questioning their cause of death individually.

We create a contradiction in the church. We focus, as you've suggested, on the miracles in our own life and trust him to protect and maintain us until we have completed our mission on earth. But then sweep away the billions of other people's personal tragedy as part of nature/mankind taking it's natural course.

[Duncan]

I'm not worrying about a billion deaths as a collective deaths collectively, I'm questioning their cause of death individually.

We create a contradiction in the church. We focus, as you've suggested, on the miracles in our own life and trust him to protect and maintain us until we have completed our mission on earth. But then sweep away the billions of other people's personal tragedy as part of nature/mankind taking it's natural course.

I did some work and haven't gotten paid yet and think my cheque got lost in the mail. Do I say oh well and say if God is in the details then what details is he in and how can I know them? or does God want me to learn some lesson from this and how do I know I learned the right lesson? If I say okay I learned something do I now get my cheque? Thing is too, it is not like I am some billionaire and can easily absorb it no problemo, I earned that money, I want that money, I would like it!

Edited November 29, 2012 by Duncan

[canard78]

Have you ever seen the results of a child that has been given everything he wants whenever he wants it? Have you seen the outcome to the kids when a mother is constantly hovering and never allowing the kid to suffer the least bit of discomfort and making excuses for any behavior. I have. It is sad.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Are you saying I'm acting like the spoiled brat wanting things my way not His way?

Or do you mean that God is a hands-off parent who let's tough stuff happen for our own good. I'm fine with notion, I'm not expecting Him to fix it (though I wish He would). But if this is the case, and he's hands off, why pray and believe in any power of intervention?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Holy crap, y'all. Comparing excruciating torture and death with spoiled kids and vague "lessons"? This is beyond callous. Please, look up "Chechnya beheading", watch the video while trying not to think of Nephi, multiply the pain of those deaths by millions, and then come back and tell me that there is some grand "lesson" God is teaching us by "allowing" this $#!+ to happen while simultaneously claiming to be "good" even when He has the power to end it.

Edited November 29, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[bluebell]

I'm not worrying about a billion deaths as a collective deaths collectively, I'm questioning their cause of death individually.

I realize that's what you are talking about.

We create a contradiction in the church. We focus, as you've suggested, on the miracles in our own life and trust him to protect and maintain us until we have completed our mission on earth. But then sweep away the billions of other people's personal tragedy as part of nature/mankind taking it's natural course.

I don't believe it's a contradiction at all. I think it's the only way to be.

When you formed a testimony of the church, did you worry about the billions through the centuries who don't/didn't have one? Did you spend time and energy pondering on how their unbelief-their denial even-of things you believe are true affects you? Were you worried that you needed to first firgure out how they could NOT believe, or why they could deny, before you could know for yourself what God's truth was?

Or did you just worry about what God was telling YOU, because it was impossible for you to know or judge what anyone else had experienced? I can't speak for you, but that's what I worry about-my own experiences with God. I certainly can't worry about anyone else's, so i'm not even going to try.

In regards to this discussion, what I'm saying is, it's impossible for you to know or judge whether or not God was involved in the details of each individual death that has ever taken place. You can't do it. You can't say 'yes, angels were there to ease his death' or 'no, he was completely left to his own devices'. You weren't there and you just don't have the knowledge to do so. So, instead of trying to do the impossible and trying to figure out how God interacts with death by contemplating deaths you have no way to judge, it only makes sense to use your own experiences to learn about death and God instead.

Worry about what God is telling YOU about death and what He is trying to show YOU about how much He is involved with the suffering and tragedy of His children, and you will then, in my opinion, begin to know how He deals with the billions as well.

I believe you'll only be able to understand personal tragedy as it pertains to the billions who have ever existed, after you first understand it in your own life.

[canard78]

Times like that are hard, and while I feel compassion for you and your friend I think it will do you both good to realize that this "mortality" thing is only a very short phase of our eternal existence and we'll only have to go (or get to go) through all of this once. After this there will be no more sorrow or death, for us.

I've had to go away for a few hours before feeling able to respond to this in a way that observes board guidelines. I'll simply ask you to not patronise me with your clumsy attempts to tell me what will "do me good." It may have done you good and helped you compartmentalise grief you may have experienced, but please don't think you know what's best for me and my friend.

He can, and has, and will, on occasion. You don't want to see him when he is angry.

I hope this was intended as twisted humour? You're really comfortable worshipping a God who will snuff people out in his bouts of anger?

He can, but that doesn't necessarily mean he always does. We're usually on the cause/effect system, by default, unless God intervenes to make something "unusual" happen which we usually refer to as a miracle.

Yes, but if we never went through any "unpleasant" scenarios how much do you suppose we would learn about our own mortality? We're going through this for a reason, otherwise we wouldn't be going through it.

If it's not the time to go, that means it's not the time for going, doesn't it? Otherwise if it was your time you would be going.

This is where you started a confusing chain of contradiction. It's an approach that seems quite common in the church because it allows a double standard to be applied depending on circumstance.

You first start by saying that God will 'miraculously' intervene but usually let life's events take their natural course.

But you then add that I'm safe to get on a plane because if it's not my time to go I won't. What if the pilot has a death wish? What if the mechanic under-fueled the plane? Will I still die, even though it wasn't my time?

No. The cause/effect system dictates that if someone fires a gun with a bullet in it then the bullet will usually go to where the gun was being pointed. An angel could intervene, for some reason, but by default there will be a "usual" effect for the gun being fired.

Prompted by who? Someone may have prompted that action, but too many beers in a person has a "usual" effect for that action.

Do you understand what "usually" causes tsunamis? God may have caused it, but then again it may have just been another one of the "usual" effects caused by our planet in its fallen condition.

Having said that I'm safe flying if it's not my time to go, you return to the notion of non-intervention. Except in unusual cases. Who are these people qualifying for the exceptions?

I can’t believe some of us have a privileged power or protection over death.

Well, I can tell you one thing. Some of us have bodyguards, and some of us don't.

CFR. I don't see this in LDS theology.

What if God wanted someone to die, like Osama Bin Laden, and he just didn't warn him to flee or stay away from those places?

I thought you said God could kill people when he's angry. Why did it take so long? This is a strange line of thought. Why not do the same to Hitler/Pol Pot etc.

God has told us that all blessings he gives us are contingent upon abiding the law of that blessing, meaning there is something to the cause/effect system. If we go into a war zone, or onto a road where something dangerous could happen, we should be prepared for the fact that certain dangerous things can "usually" happen.

So please do let me know the obedience required to get this interventionist action. If it's a blessing on our actions I must have missed it.

A recent conference talk gave the ‘miracle’ of 3 kids being saved from the Haiti earthquake: http://www.lds.org/g...-of-me?lang=eng

A sister gave a recent talk of paying her tithing, buying a computer she couldn’t afford to fulfil her calling and then getting a gift of the exact amount she spent on the computer.

People talk of lost keys on a scout camp being lost and found after prayer.

Why would God intervene for 3 kids but leave 1000s to die? Why would God trouble himself with the cost of a PC or lost keys, when a storm blows into Eastern USA killing many. Does God intervene? Or do we rationalise the pain of death and disappointment by convincing ourselves that the pain is part of a greater purpose and all in His hands after all?

God can intervene, but then again God can also just let the "usual" effect to happen from the usual "cause" in a situation.

In all cases I think it's best to just be as prepared as we can be for what will happen.

You finish by emphasising the contradiction of what you're saying. How can God be able to be both a passive observer and intervene? And if that's the case, who qualifies for intervention? You're certain that in exceptional circumstances there are angelic body guards. If you've no idea how or why, how can you be certain you're not simply applying meaning to co-incidence.

[canard78]

Holy crap, y'all. Comparing excruciating torture and death with spoiled kids and vague "lessons"? This is beyond callous. Please, look up "Chechnya beheading", watch the video while trying not to think of Nephi, multiply the pain of those deaths by millions, and then come back and tell me that there is some grand "lesson" God is teaching us by "allowing" this $#!+ to happen while simultaneously claiming to be "good" even when He has the power to end it.

Again, thank you Jeremy. The reality is, most LDS live very cosseted lives and have very little exposure to real suffering so find it easier to not consider its deep implications. I am probably among this group most of the time and count myself fortunate in many aspects of life.

An LDS film director I know says he would rarely consider an LDS composer to write a film score because their life experiences and appreciation of the true range of both pain and ecstasy was so limited.

[Calm]

Again, thank you Jeremy. The reality is, most LDS live very cosseted lives and have very little exposure to real suffering so find it easier to not consider its deep implications. I am probably among this group most of the time and count myself fortunate in many aspects of life.

An LDS film director I know says he would rarely consider an LDS composer to write a film score because their life experiences and appreciation of the true range of both pain and ecstasy was so limited.

Rather than saying most LDS, perhaps you should say most Americans and Englishmen and others in the more advanced economically nations. I know plenty of LDS who have suffered what you apparently believe is "real suffering" though I don't see how watching a child die of cancer is much easier than seeing him tortured to death.

[canard78]

When you formed a testimony of the church, did you worry about the billions through the centuries who don't/didn't have one? Did you spend time and energy pondering on how their unbelief-their denial even-of things you believe are true affects you? Were you worried that you needed to first firgure out how they could NOT believe, or why they could deny, before you could know for yourself what God's truth was?

Or did you just worry about what God was telling YOU, because it was impossible for you to know or judge what anyone else had experienced? I can't speak for you, but that's what I worry about-my own experiences with God. I certainly can't worry about anyone else's, so i'm not even going to try.

I do spend quite a lot of time pondering why God prefers 99.5% of his children to go through their mortal life with no real interaction with the gospel. The majority of them won't even have a 5 minute door approach from the missionaries. It would infer he has a plan for each of us and the church doesn't factor in the mortal probabtion for most of us. If the 'experience of mortal life' has design, I will still wonder if its end does too.

In regards to this discussion, what I'm saying is, it's impossible for you to know or judge whether or not God was involved in the details of each individual death that has ever taken place. You can't do it. You can't say 'yes, angels were there to ease his death' or 'no, he was completely left to his own devices'. You weren't there and you just don't have the knowledge to do so. So, instead of trying to do the impossible and trying to figure out how God interacts with death by contemplating deaths you have no way to judge, it only makes sense to use your own experiences to learn about death and God instead.

Worry about what God is telling YOU about death and what He is trying to show YOU about how much He is involved with the suffering and tragedy of His children, and you will then, in my opinion, begin to know how He deals with the billions as well.

I believe you'll only be able to understand personal tragedy as it pertains to the billions who have ever existed, after you first understand it in your own life.

It's another good point. We simply can't know. I also find our theology mostly silent and sometimes contradictory on this topic. There isn't a conclusive answer on why we die and when we die. And I guess I just have to accept that.

Edited November 29, 2012 by canard78

[canard78]

Rather than saying most LDS, perhaps you should say most Americans and Englishmen and others in the more advanced economically nations. I know plenty of LDS who have suffered what you apparently believe is "real suffering" though I don't see how watching a child die of cancer is much easier than seeing him tortured to death.

His actual quote was he wouldn't often use a "Utah mormon" composer. His reasoning was specifically about how LDS tend to have a limited range of emotional experience because anything truly painful is softened by the hopes of the next life. Whether by design or coincidence he felt we limit the depth of our anguish. Equally he felt the joy of success can be muted by crediting God for part or all of it. I guess Ammon might disagree with the second part.

The uncertainty of disbelief for others, he said, meant the emotional range was broader and this showed in his music. When the comforts of western living were added, the range of experience was also less extreme. This is only one person's opinion, but makes an interesting point about how belief can help us defer grief.

[Calm]

Equally he felt the joy of success can be muted by crediting God for part or all of it.

That seems to be a view that implies that true joy is based on selfishness and not the sharing of it. That success in and of itself is not of highest value, but only what it means to us in terms of status, etc.

I wonder what he thinks of "religious ectasy".

Living without fear may remove some of the creative drive, I can see that. Drama is typically seen to be a result of conflict and if one has managed to deal with emotional conflicts, then there would certainly be less 'drama' in one's life. I can see that reflected in music which is to a great extent about drama as well, especially among Westerners.

It would be interesting to see if other cultures that value serenity more would find LDS composers more appealing.

Edited November 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[canard78]

That seems to be a view that implies that true joy is based on selfishness and not the sharing of it. That success in and of itself is not of highest value, but only what it means to us in terms of status, etc.

I wonder what he thinks of "religious ectasy".

Living without fear may remove some of the creative drive, I can see that. Drama is typically seen to be a result of conflict and if one has managed to deal with emotional conflicts, then there would certainly be less 'drama' in one's life. I can see that reflected in music which is to a great extent about drama as well, especially among Westerners.

It would be interesting to see if other cultures that value serenity more would find LDS composers more appealing.

Hmm, very interesting point. I played some Rodrigo y Gabriella (frenetic flamenco duo) to my colleagues in China. There were some polite non-commital nods!

Maybe I'll try some gut wrenching Shostakovich followed by a bit of Michael McClane and see if there a preference.

In the light of your comments I was thinking further. I didn't mean to dismiss the pain and heartache suffered by Mormons wholesale. I am one, and right now it hurts.

I'm aware of the opportunity the situation is giving me to consider things I hadn't previously. I'm not grateful for the opportunity because I'd rather it wasn't there in the first place, and I shudder at the suggestion that the experience has been 'sent' to teach a lesson. But I'm also aware that perhaps in God's great economy he sometimes leverages opportunities and efficiencies and I might never be able to fully understand how or why.

[Calm]

God isn't asking anyone to go through something he wasn't willing to,experience even if we can't currently understand how he managed it. Whatever purpose....if there is one....suffering might involve, one thing we can believe and trust in is that even if no one else understands our experience, God does and we are not alone in our suffering. I don't know if this actually makes suffering less, but it seems more bearable somehow to me to know that.

[thesometimesaint]

canard:

We all die at some point. He won't remove the memory of our experiences. God restores that life, and dries all our tears. Where have we lost anything?

To put it more mundanely. God takes our beat up old Yugo and gives us back a brand new Cadillac. We haven't really lost anything, we have gained something better.

Edited November 29, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[bcuzbcuz]

To put it more mundanely. God takes our beat up old Yugo and gives us back a brand new Cadillac. We haven't really lost anything, we have gained something better.

No, you're not even close. Have you ever owned a Yugo, or driven one? They are irreplaceable.

[thesometimesaint]

Never owned one, but have ridden in one.

I agree with Car Talk. " The Yugo was voted Car Talk's worst car of the millennium".