Does God "Kill" People

[canard78]

Yes! He kills ark steadiers.

Ha! Then I guess in light of this thread I better watch for falling trees...

[ERayR]

Where have I lost anything? A friend who I can call when I need to. A person who is a confidante and with whom I shared things that no other know. A mentor and trainer who has helped me reshape my character, enhance my strengths and manage my weaknesses. An positive influence on my family and children who could impact the rest of their life in a way he already has mine.

Or do none of these count? Am I just unlucky to be facing the prospect of losing him? Or did God choose this time?

Please, the last thing someone struggling with sickness or loss wants is to be patronised with the suggestion that some future promise of a hoped for afterlife should stop the pain of this very real one.

I know the comments are well intended, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply but I'm not asking you to stop it hurting and, when I read the accounts of others who grieve, many feel the same. A simple 'I'm very sorry to hear about your painful experience' is usually enough, I don't need it to be a teaching opportunity.

I'm very sorry to hear about your painful experience. I fail to see where you have lost anything. As long as one holds the memories and remembers the experiences with fondness they are not lost and a personal relationship can be resumed when it is our appointed time to cross that barrier.

[ERayR]

So, if we die at a time appointed by God and at a time (manner?) of his choosing, how does that factor in agency?

If I put a gun to your head and pulled the trigger and you weren't "appointed unto death" would my gun miraculously jam?

I'm not judging God, I'm trying to understand our relationship to him and the nature of our 'turn on earth.'

Maybe, if it got that far. Let me ask you this. We live in a very dangerous world and death passes by numerous times daily. Traveling down the highway there is always the chance that someone will choose to pass another car at the wrong time. It happens to others why not to us? There are numerous other examples that could be cited. How many times a day is a catastrophic event averted in our lives? We attribute close calls to luck or karma or something else and often fail to see Gods and in the event but if something bad does happen we blame God for not preventing it. We should at least be consistent, if we are going to blame God for the bad at least then give him credit for the good.

[ERayR]

As in Adam all die... so I guess Adam is to blame.

At a very sad funeral I went to (for a little 2 year old) our bishop shared this:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:9)

Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

Our days are numbered, we are each placed in the world for as long as we need - we can't say someone should not have died, or their life was too short, because we are each given what we need.

In looking at this I don't think the objection is to the dying but rather to the methods of dying. When someone young dies peacefully we comment that it is a shame someone so young died and it doesn't bother us but when someone dies a horrible tragic death, car accidents, shootings, murders, long term painful illness, etc., then we tend to wonder why God would allow this to happen. Why the suffering.

[Vance]

Ha! Then I guess in light of this thread I better watch for falling trees...

What are you trying to say?

Did He or did He not kill the ark steadiers?

[thesometimesaint]

In looking at this I don't think the objection is to the dying but rather to the methods of dying. When someone young dies peacefully we comment that it is a shame someone so young died and it doesn't bother us but when someone dies a horrible tragic death, car accidents, shootings, murders, long term painful illness, etc., then we tend to wonder why God would allow this to happen. Why the suffering.

To me the only thing that makes sense in the suffering is that we will gain at least a small experience of what our Lord and Savior went through for us. In the eternities it will be turned to our good.

[pogi]

To me the only thing that makes sense in the suffering is that we will gain at least a small experience of what our Lord and Savior went through for us. In the eternities it will be turned to our good.

Yes, I agree. Suffering is only bad if it is eternal. Without out it, we would be in a constant state of numbness knowing no pleasure or pain. We can become numb to "the good life" without experiencing hardship. I'm sure you have all experienced having to loose something before realizing just how good you had it. When you get it back, you appreciate it that much more. I'm sure it's the same with loosing a loved one. Sometimes it takes a hard kick in the pants to show us what we really have to be greatful for. All suffering will end, except for the sons/daughters of perdition.

The scriptures state that God allows horrible traumatic experiences to happen to people in order to bring justice upon the wicked. The righteous who suffer, we are told, have reason to rejoice. The sting of death is swallowed up in Christ. The righteous who suffer will be rewarded.

I think we too often view earthly experiences as the only experienes. This life is miniscule when one considers eternity. Though we may suffer for a brief moment, we will be rewarded with eternal blessings. One must view suffering and death through an eternal perspective.

Wether we die at 3 or at 103, there is hardly a difference in the eternal perspective of things, it less than a blink of the eye.

I'm sure this is not much consolation for one who is suffering now, but they will see soon enough.

Edited November 30, 2012 by pogi

[changed]

I Needed The Quiet

-- Author Unknown

I needed the quiet, so He drew me aside

Into the shadows where we could confide,

Away from the bustle where all the day long

I hurried and worried when active and strong.

I needed the quiet tho' at first I rebelled--

But gently, so gently, my cross He upheld

And whispered so sweetly of spiritual things.

Tho' weakened in body, my spirit took wings

To heights never dreamed of when active and gay,

He loved me so greatly, He drew me away.

I needed the quiet. No prison my bed,

But a beautiful valley of blessings instead.

A place to grow richer in Jesus to hide.

I needed the quiet, so He drew me aside.

... the most spiritual people I know are the ones who have endured the most... It's true, they gain an appreciation and deeper understanding then those who have walked easier roads...

Edited December 1, 2012 by changed

[canard78]

What are you trying to say?

Did He or did He not kill the ark steadiers?

I was just being flippant about whether my questions were being seen as ark steadying.

If you read the OT literally then yes, some guy tried to stop the ark falling on the ground and got zapped by God. The more I read it, the less literally I take the OT. I certainly don't think there was a total earth flood, so I'm not sure at what point it becomes historically accurate. It doesn't actually matter to me either way.

But yes, based on OT, God does kill people. The original question was less about whether God has 'ever' ended a life and about today and whether all deaths are at a time and manner of His choosing.

Edited December 1, 2012 by canard78

[canard78]

In looking at this I don't think the objection is to the dying but rather to the methods of dying. When someone young dies peacefully we comment that it is a shame someone so young died and it doesn't bother us but when someone dies a horrible tragic death, car accidents, shootings, murders, long term painful illness, etc., then we tend to wonder why God would allow this to happen. Why the suffering.

I'd imagine that most parents who lose a child peacefully would passionately disagree that "it doesn't bother them" - where did you get that idea from?

My main question is about timing and whether God chooses the timing of our death (and by impication manner of our death, but that's a secondary question).

[canard78]

I'm very sorry to hear about your painful experience. I fail to see where you have lost anything. As long as one holds the memories and remembers the experiences with fondness they are not lost and a personal relationship can be resumed when it is our appointed time to cross that barrier.

Wow. I'm amazed to see you can attempt to show sympathy while also telling me how I should feel. Did you even bother reading all of the post you replied to?

This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God and complete their labours. The influence you have on others in this life will directly impact the situation you and they are in in the next. This life isn't just some summer camp at the lake.

Please stop trying to tell me how to feel.

[ERayR]

I'd imagine that most parents who lose a child peacefully would passionately disagree that "it doesn't bother them" - where did you get that idea from?

My main question is about timing and whether God chooses the timing of our death (and by impication manner of our death, but that's a secondary question).

In case you missed it my point was not about the death of someone bothering them. Of course it bothers but a peaceful death is not as traumatic to the survivors as a violent death or a long painful one.

I can tell you when my 3 year old brother died peacefully when I was fifteen it was not near as traumatic as when I lost my oldest daughter in a car wreck when she was a baby.

Edited December 1, 2012 by ERayR

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Putting aside theoretical theological disagreements, I'm so sorry you had to go through that, ERayR. And canard78's friend, too. This is a painful world.

[ERayR]

Wow. I'm amazed to see you can attempt to show sympathy while also telling me how I should feel. Did you even bother reading all of the post you replied to?

This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God and complete their labours. The influence you have on others in this life will directly impact the situation you and they are in in the next. This life isn't just some summer camp at the lake.

Please stop trying to tell me how to feel.

I'm sorry you took offense. I certainly wasn't telling you how to feel about anything but simply pointing out the obvious continuation of relationships beyond the grave. Feel whatever you want.

[changed]

Here are notes from the funeral service I was at if anyone is interested...

****** ******’s Funeral Service

Mourning

We are here to mourn with those that mourn, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort.

Mourning is the deepest expression of love.

We mourn not because we lack faith that the Lord will raise ****** to live again, but because we will miss him until that day.

D&C 42:45 Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die

Basic Doctrines

• We believe the atonement of Christ saves all who believe in Him and that each person will receive a reward equivalent to his/her faithfulness.

• We believe we lived with God before we were born and there demonstrated faith and good works (Alma 13:3) and received important lessons (D&C 138:56).

• We believe this life has one purpose only: to prepare to meet God. (Alma 34:32)

• We believe God has called prophets and apostles in our day .

• We believe in the Bible and additional scriptures: Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price

• We believe the Lord has restored to the earth Priesthood power and the keys to “bind on earth what is bound in heaven” (Matt. 16:19), the sealing power.

• We believe that through the sealing power husband and wife can joined for time and all eternity and their marriage does not end at death.

• We believe children born to sealed parents or who are later sealed to them are forever joined to them and they will continue as a family unit throughout eternity.

What do we know?

We Know ****** is With God

Mosiah 15:22:-25 (Abinadi)

22 And…all those that have believed…are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.

24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.

25 And little children also have eternal life.

Moroni 8:11 (Mormon) 11 Little children need no repentance

D&C 137 (Joseph Smith)

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

We Know ****** will Live Again

Helaman 14:17 (Samuel the Lamanite) But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

Alma 11:44 (Amulek) Now, this [resurrection] shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now,

We Know Ed and ****** will Rear ****** in the Millennium

Joseph Smith to a woman who lost her child: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection...” (Gospel Doctrine, 455-56)

Will he be a child as he is now? Sit on your knee? Have to learn to read, drive, etc.?

Joseph F. Smith: "The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth nor development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and…after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man" (Improvement Era 7 [June 1904]:623-24).

Joseph Smith: “As concerning the resurrection, I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young, there will not be ‘added unto their stature one cubit, neither taken from it…Children will be enthroned in the presence of God and the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that they had on earth…”. (Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 227)

D&C 45:58 “Children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.”

What we know gives us great comfort, but the most pressing question remains unanswered. Why?

Couldn’t the Lord have sent His angels to hedge up the way to prevent this tragedy?

Why Was he Taken?

Days are Numbered

• D&C 122:9 Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less;

• Reasonable to assume all our days are numbered, will not be more or less

• God is all knowing, omniscient

• God is all wise

• In His infinite wisdom and foreknowledge he has numbered our days to ensure we have sufficient time to complete our mortal missions. Our days will not be less, our days will not be more. Some may live nearly a century or longer to bless their lives or that of others. Others, like ******, may only require a short time in mortality to complete their mission on earth.

****** too Righteous, World too Wicked

Help me understand.

When has the Lord taken people from the earth?

Moses 7:69 And Enoch and all his people walked with God, and he dwelt in the midst of Zion; and it came to pass that Zion was not, for God received it up into his own bosom; and from thence went forth the saying, Zion is Fled.

What was Zion fleeing from?

Enoch was Noah’s great grandfather.

Enoch and his city were taken from the earth because the earth was ripe with iniquity and soon to be cleansed by the flood.

All of the righteous were taken from the earth through death or translation except for Noah and his household prior to the flood.

My impression: ****** was taken because he was too righteous and the world is too wicked and the Lord is preparing to cleanse it by fire just as he cleansed it by flood.

Joseph Smith: “This world is a very wicked world; and…the world grows more wicked and corrupt…In these days…a [righteous] man is much opposed and persecuted by most of the inhabitants of the earth, and he has much sorrow to pass through here. The Lord takes many away even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth; therefore, if rightly considered, instead of mourning we have reason to rejoice as they are delivered from evil, and we shall soon have them again.” (Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.223)

****** Continues his Mission

Joseph F. Smith

D&C 138:56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

Rain on Saturday

Fasting and Praying

Day ******s returned

ABC13.com

"Amazing rainfall" floods Houston area

At one point last Saturday the rain was coming down as fast as it did during Tropical Storm Allison. Here are some of the "amazing" numbers from the Houston-Galveston National Weather Service office:

• Pearland: 1.33" of rain fell in just 12 minutes; Total rainfall 7.94"

• Hobby Airport: 1.48" of rain fell in just 16 minutes; Total rainfall 7.79"

• Clear Creek: 6.26" fell in just one hour; Total rainfall 9.92"

• League City: Total rainfall 11.80"

• Frelsburg in northern Colorado County: Total rainfall 9.34"

Maybe ****** put in a good word for us.

Summary

****** is with God crowned with eternal glory.

****** will live again.

****** and ****** will be reunited with ****** and they will rear him in the millennium.

****** he had accomplished his mission in mortality and he was too righteous while the world is too wicked stay.

****** continues his mission in the world of spirits.

Edited December 1, 2012 by changed

[canard78]

I'm sorry you took offense. I certainly wasn't telling you how to feel about anything but simply pointing out the obvious continuation of relationships beyond the grave. Feel whatever you want.

Hi ERayR. Firstly, apologies for my over-reacting. Everything's feeling pretty 'raw' at the moment. I'm also very sorry to hear about the passing of your family members. I can't even begin to imagine how devastating that must have been. I'm glad you have found hope in the gospel and appreciate your sharing your experiences and thoughts.

[Erin15]

If God is "in the details" enough to spend His time finding lost keys because "no concern of ours is too small or insignificant", why is He not "in the details" enough to address such small concerns as, oh, I don't know ...

Have you considered the possibility that in our present mortal condition that we are incapable of comprehending the answer to that question?

[canard78]

Have you considered the possibility that in our present mortal condition that we are incapable of comprehending the answer to that question?

Do you know... In the end I may have to reach this conclusion. I will probably never comprehend how God balances intervention and leaving it to happen. There doesn't appear to be a clear answer in our theology. Maybe that's because the answer's too big for the human mind to comprehend.

[Grundelwalken]

Dealing today with the untimely passing of my baby sister. She was only 36 and leaves 4 little ones and a husband. A sweeter and more loving person cannot be found but her heart (never before an issue) gave out and she died. Did God take her? I don't know but He didn't stop her passing either. We will all miss her but to think she has been cheated or we have been so is to ignore the whole of our probationary state. Our experiences include mortality AND spirit life -- until the time we are judged and resurrected. I sorrow for our separation but rejoice that we will be reunited in faith and the truths of the gospel.

As I must allow some experiences to "happen" to my own children even though I could prevent them, our Father must be careful when He intervenes in our lives. He can change anything BUT chooses to only affect some things. MW

[canard78]

Dealing today with the untimely passing of my baby sister. She was only 36 and leaves 4 little ones and a husband. A sweeter and more loving person cannot be found but her heart (never before an issue) gave out and she died. Did God take her? I don't know but He didn't stop her passing either. We will all miss her but to think she has been cheated or we have been so is to ignore the whole of our probationary state. Our experiences include mortality AND spirit life -- until the time we are judged and resurrected. I sorrow for our separation but rejoice that we will be reunited in faith and the truths of the gospel.

As I must allow some experiences to "happen" to my own children even though I could prevent them, our Father must be careful when He intervenes in our lives. He can change anything BUT chooses to only affect some things. MW

Hi Grundel, thank you for sharing your testimony and experiences at what must be a very painful time for you. I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. I would imagine you do and will miss her friendship but am glad your faith gives you a hope and knowledge for the future.