Senator Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 I am honored. It is not every day that I inspire a Senator.Thanks, -Wade Englund-Oh, you have no idea how oft you inspired me.
TruthSeeker24 Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Damn straight!!!How long do we have to tolerate the Lords tolerance of this cohabition with the tares????Well spoken!
Cobalt-70 Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 The church has a full time research department staffed by 30 professional researchers who hold PHDs in a variety of areas. The majority of their research is commissioned by the 12. The doctrine they follow is that information precedes revelation, but revelation trumps information. Be assured that the brethren are very well informed and any decision they make is taken after a tremendous amount of time is spent gathering information and praying. I have participated in a few of these information gathering projects and I suspect many others here have so as well.If "information precedes revelation," then the more information the better, right? What if the Brethren, being male, just don't think to ask their pollsters the right questions as it relates to women's issues?
Tacenda Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 A third class citizen having to chauffeur the little man to the golf course. Oh the burdens of the upper-middle class woman!He made the high school team and I'm proud of him. We are so middle class it's not funny. My husband worked in the iron working construction field for pete sakes!
zerinus Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Funny, I always thought the artwork was quite creepy-- a "Stepford" Kingdom!Some examples of JW scriptures art work:http://www.jw.org/en...ble-characters/They are not necessarily the best. They have been very prolific in that department. I liked the older works that used to be published in the earlier editions of the Watchtower magazine
Tacenda Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 I was referring to the quote by Richard G. Scott made at the 2011 general conference... here... "He has convinced many of the lie that they are third class citizen's in the kingdom of God". Several women made a fuss over him saying 3rd class versus 2nd class. Women that have probably signed this petition. I remember reading their comments awhile ago. I'm sure there was a reason Bro. Scott said it that way.
Cobalt-70 Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 As to the "class" of citizenship of women in the LDS Church, it is clear that they form a separate class. Whether it is a subordinate class, a superordinate class, or an equal class is a matter of interpretation. It is a separate class because gender roles are enforced, and women are not allowed to hold priesthood office. Those who say that this does not make women "second class citizens" mean that women as a class are actually "blessed" by not having to have positions of authority, and "blessed" because they can rely on men to make the final decisions, thus making their lives easier and freeing them up for their superior role of child rearing and nurturing. Plus, women are put on a pedestal and they are "more righteous," so that makes them either a "superior" or "equal" class to men.
Saints Alive Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 I don't like saying one sex is better of more righteous than another, they are separate so its really comparing apples and oranges.
CV75 Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Some examples of JW scriptures art work:http://www.jw.org/en...ble-characters/They are not necessarily the best. They have been very prolific in that department. I liked the older works that used to be published in the earlier editions of the Watchtower magazineHm. "Peter" looks like Mandy Patinkin, over-acting facial expersion and all...!You know, i downloaded a Bible Character Card and now a bunch of people are knocking at my door.
bluebell Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) As to the "class" of citizenship of women in the LDS Church, it is clear that they form a separate class. Whether it is a subordinate class, a superordinate class, or an equal class is a matter of interpretation. It is a separate class because gender roles are enforced, and women are not allowed to hold priesthood office. Those who say that this does not make women "second class citizens" mean that women as a class are actually "blessed" by not having to have positions of authority, and "blessed" because they can rely on men to make the final decisions, thus making their lives easier and freeing them up for their superior role of child rearing and nurturing. Plus, women are put on a pedestal and they are "more righteous," so that makes them either a "superior" or "equal" class to men.As a human, i don't have to first discover whether or not another human being and i have the same number of strengths or responsibilities from God so that each one cancels out the other, before I can say whether or not I am equal with that person (i'm guessing that you don't believe you have to do that either before YOU can feel equal with another person). What makes each human being equal to the next is our equal potential to become co-heirs with Christ and that we are all of equal worth to our Father in Heaven and our Savior.Likewise, as a woman in the church, i don't have to discover how my sex is superior to males in order to make me equal to a man who has the priesthood. I am equal to Him regardless of what God has given him, or not given me, or vice versa. We are equal because of who we are and what we can become. Edited September 24, 2012 by bluebell
Damien the Leper Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 It would be poor form to ignorantly assume that the author(s) and those that agree with the document are speaking for ALL Mormon women. That is just silly, assinine and presumptuous.As for the content of the document, these women aren't asking for anything unreasonable. They just want to be fully included in all things concerning the church. There is nothing wrong with that.Do I think it'll ever happen? Not any time soon.Will women who have left come back if there is change? Maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath. 1
Freedom Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 If "information precedes revelation," then the more information the better, right? What if the Brethren, being male, just don't think to ask their pollsters the right questions as it relates to women's issues?What if the brethren don't come up with the questions (which they don't)? What if the researchers are women (which many of them are)? What if they hire professional researchers who know what they are doing and the work is guided by revelation (which it is)? I assure you, they regularly consult with the women of the church on all sorts of matters.
Damien the Leper Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 This essay by Paul Toscano is appropriate:The Call of Mormon Feminism
swfarnsworth Posted September 24, 2012 Posted September 24, 2012 Some of their requests are reasonable, especially when compared to those requesting radical shifts in doctrine to make room for SSM in the temple.Also, they did not demand that the changes be put in place. Rather, they asked for Church leaders to request inspiration on the topic. Though I'm not convinced that all of them would accept "No" as God's answer, I repeat that they are still being more reasonable than those convinced that they know God's will better than anyone who disagrees with them and that the General Authorities are acting without inspiration until they agree with that person's opinions.So, then, is it better to believe that you know God's will better than the General Authorities and that they need to agree with you, or to believe that the First Presidency and the Apostles sit in the Salt Lake Temple and vote on which doctrines and policies they like best? I read a blog post by an LDS author (you can probably guess who this person is if you have read his/her works before; I'm surprised they have retained their membership) who was looking forward to when the presently younger generation became apostles so they can change Church policies to reflect more modern ideals.
ed2276 Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 I see there was a large California contingent of petitioners...not surprising. I am surprised that they didn't call for a gender neutral or feminine pronoun for God in the scriptures.
Freedom Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 Some of their requests are reasonable, especially when compared to those requesting radical shifts in doctrine to make room for SSM in the temple.Also, they did not demand that the changes be put in place. Rather, they asked for Church leaders to request inspiration on the topic. Though I'm not convinced that all of them would accept "No" as God's answer, I repeat that they are still being more reasonable than those convinced that they know God's will better than anyone who disagrees with them and that the General Authorities are acting without inspiration until they agree with that person's opinions.So, then, is it better to believe that you know God's will better than the General Authorities and that they need to agree with you, or to believe that the First Presidency and the Apostles sit in the Salt Lake Temple and vote on which doctrines and policies they like best? I read a blog post by an LDS author (you can probably guess who this person is if you have read his/her works before; I'm surprised they have retained their membership) who was looking forward to when the presently younger generation became apostles so they can change Church policies to reflect more modern ideals.I do not doubt that this plays a factor. Joseph Fielding Smith and the battle over evolution is a case in point. Another is the current devotion to Boy Scouts of America. Core doctrines, however, such as priesthood or gay marriage is a whole different level of influence.
zerinus Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 You know, i downloaded a Bible Character Card and now a bunch of people are knocking at my door.I love it when they come round my place. I always invite them in, and patiently listen to what they have to say. They think they are preaching to me. What they don't know is that I am in fact preaching to them.
rpn Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) My take is that if they really believe that Heavenly Father runs the church, and leaders who work for Him are messing up, then they ought to spend more time on their knees praying that He will bring church leaders to heal (or heel) so they are doing His work. And if they don't believe that Heavenly Father runs the church, then why do they care?They'd do better to work on understanding the why of the things that are hard for them to accept. Edited September 25, 2012 by rpn
ed2276 Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 This one leaves me scratching my head... Anyone know what they might be referring to?Changing He to She or It when referring to God the Father/Mother/ Thing in the scriptures?
Calm Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). CFR the study because it doesn't sound familiar.
ed2276 Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 Are we happy that many of our women are depressed? Something has to change.How about they start their own church where they can have everything the way they think it should be? That should rid them of depression and allow them the greatest happiness.
Calm Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 I have participated in a few of these information gathering projects and I suspect many others here have so as well.Yep.
Calm Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 Please don't speak for all women in the church. I, as an LDS woman, am not treated at church like a 2nd or 3rd class citizen and i find it extremely annoying when other women try to imply differently. No points so just a solid "Amen". 1
Nemesis Posted September 25, 2012 Posted September 25, 2012 Just pass out the poisonous koolaid now.Not saying anything against leadership or anyone in particular. Talking about your line of thinking, which has lead people to bad places in the past.Godwin's law violation. Thread closed.
Recommended Posts