Current Dissent- "We Call Upon The First Presidency, Quorum Of The Twelve Apostles....

[Lamanite]

Link to the what women know call...

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Edited September 24, 2012 by Lamanite

[Calm]

My first thought is I need more context.

[Lamanite]

My first thought is I need more context.

That's the tendency I know. But I think it's pretty straight forward.

OK, so you've told me what your first thoughts are.... what were your first feelings about this? Feelings about men and women calling out our Prophets and Apostles and requesting change through a public medium. And what are your feelings on the recruitment element of the call by asking for support from other members of the Church?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Freedom]

People do this all the time but it depends on the context. If they called upon the leadership to abandon Joseph Smith as a prophet and continued to fight in the public arena for such a change then this would likely end in excommunication. If they called upon the leadership to produce more artwork for Old Testament Stories then a different course of action would likely result.

[SamIam]

My first thought is I need more context.

Since Mr. Lamanite has missed the que to post a link...I am going to guess that he is talking about this docuement found on the web in a couple of differnt places. I could be way off but when you do not have much to work with, you do the best you can...

Here's the link http://whatwomenknow...-Final Edit.pdf

Edited September 24, 2012 by SamIam

[wenglund]

If you are referring to this facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=269284059856654&story_fbid=269288289856231

...then I wouldn't so much consider it dissent as I would consider it ark steadying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bluebell]

I have no idea what you are referring to Lamanite. Is there more info you can provide (links?). The OP doesn't offer enough information to make comments.

[zerinus]

If they called upon the leadership to produce more artwork for Old Testament Stories then a different course of action would likely result.

I have always admired the JWs for their scripture art work and illustrations. Their theology and doctrine is crazy, but their artwork and illustrations are excellent.

[Lamanite]

I'm an idiot. Sorry guys.

What women know

[Lamanite]

If you are referring to this facebook page:

http://www.facebook....269288289856231

...then I wouldn't so much consider it dissent as I would consider it ark steadying.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Help me to understand the difference Wade.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[tyler90az]

I have always admired the JWs for their scripture art work and illustrations. Their theology and doctrine is crazy, but their artwork and illustrations are excellent.

We must rise above comments like this mate! Don't you think they are saying the same thing about our doctrine?

[bluebell]

What women know

My thoughts:

Yes, it's a form of dissent.

I don't really have an issue or opinion with the mechanism..

No, i don't think it's worthy of discipline.

My emotional reaction is 'what gives them the right to think they can speak for all mormon women?!?' I have HUGE issues with the first line of their call for change, where they imply that all mormon women agree with them. It kind of makes me instantly dislike their group, actually.

[Saints Alive]

Link to the what women know call...

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

Big UP!

Lamanite

1. I don't know that I would call it dissent as much as dissatisfaction with the status quo. I don't think it qualifies as apostasy unless they start to claim that this is the way God wants things to be.

2. Its as good as any I suppose. I guess they probably should have kept it more low key and away from the attention of non members but what ever.

3. Maybe some counseling would be in order but I don't think disciplinary action would be necessary, but depending on what was said in private I suppose it could be an option.

4. Some of their requests seem reasonable and even beneficial. Some of them are completely out of the question.

[cinepro]

My 8 year old daughter recently spent two weeks working on her "Christmas List". It's four pages long, and includes the most absurd items. I got the same feeling reading that petition as I did when I read my daughter's list.

Edited September 24, 2012 by cinepro

[Saints Alive]

I have always admired the JWs for their scripture art work and illustrations. Their theology and doctrine is crazy, but their artwork and illustrations are excellent.

I don't think we of all people should judge others religion as crazy...

[tyler90az]

Link to the what women know call...

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Choose what is right and let the consequence follow! Sign the document if you agree with it brother.

[zerinus]

We must rise above comments like this mate! Don't you think they are saying the same thing about our doctrine?

I don't think we of all people should judge others religion as crazy...

They are not known to have said good things about Mormonism; but I am not retaliating. I am observing.

Edited September 24, 2012 by zerinus

[tyler90az]

1. I don't know that I would call it dissent as much as dissatisfaction with the status quo. I don't think it qualifies as apostasy unless they start to claim that this is the way God wants things to be.

2. Its as good as any I suppose. I guess they probably should have kept it more low key and away from the attention of non members but what ever.

3. Maybe some counseling would be in order but I don't think disciplinary action would be necessary, but depending on what was said in private I suppose it could be an option.

4. Some of their requests seem reasonable and even beneficial. Some of them are completely out of the question.

I just wrote them and advised them to remove a few of the requests. Namely, participating in blessing and changes to Temple words. Those two things will cause the 15 to automatically disregard the document. Also they will cause members to be reluctant in signing it. My two cents anyways...

[JAHS]

"Restore the former institutionally-accepted practice of women giving blessings of healing and comfort."

I didn't know they were not allowed to still do this. I have always understood that women can give such blessings through their faith if someone holding the priesthood is not available.

[pmccombs1]

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

Yes, it could be viewed as a mild form of dissent. It puts forth a specific feminist agenda and implies an absence of justice by making particular requests for change.

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

Well it's nothing like Martin Luther nailing his grievances to the church door. I'm not really sure what the mechanism is. Is it facebook? Is it a populist sort of thing that gets circulated by dissenting voices until it garners the attention of those to whom it is directed?

The problem, of course, with many modern methods of communication is that they trivialize the message. The medium is the message, as McLuhan used to say.

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

If I were a local Bishop, I would not be concerned with it.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

If I were... what? In a leadership role? Well, I believe folks should have a way to voice dissent even in "God's one true Church." For one thing, I believe our sustaining votes ought to be just that, rather than automatic, brain-off reflexes. Who has the courage to raise their hand to the sound of, "any opposed?" This language has become empty. We are afraid of dissent--the thinking has already been done, and who will argue with the Lord? The truth is, we ought to receive new doctrines, policies, scriptures, and so forth in general councils of the church and vote upon them according to our consciences, whether or not we will receive them. We've had much pushed upon us without such "common consent." And wherever we feel injustice exists in the Church, we ought to "call upon the brethren" to address the grievances and perhaps put it to the vote. The Lord does not give where we will not receive.

Anyway, it's pointless... we don't have a culture of dissent except on the lunatic fringe where guys like me and those nutty feminists reside.

[tyler90az]

I have to question why they included ex-members. Will these members come back if some changes are made?

Edited September 24, 2012 by tyler90az

[Verum]

Encourage leaders to use gender-inclusive language whenever possible.

This one leaves me scratching my head... Anyone know what they might be referring to?

[wenglund]

Help me to understand the difference Wade.

In addition to the clarification I provided on your other related thread, to me dissent is publicly fighting against the Church, whereas ark-steadying is publicly, though presumptuously, attempting to work with the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

Questions.

1. I think a request that the General Authorities thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about a certain matter represents a form of dissent that is trying to negotiate within the very structure it is questioning.

2. The mechanism for bringing the call to the attention of the General Authorities isn’t really clear. It could be anything from delivering a signed petition to someone directing them to the website to encouraging the idea to bubble within and then up through the various councils. In any case, the mechanism is only as good as the strategy for making it work.

3. Not unless the dissent ceases to try to work within the existing structure and instead seeks to tear it down.

4. I think the mechanism should include a doctrinal basis for each of the opinions expressed.

[CV75]

I have always admired the JWs for their scripture art work and illustrations. Their theology and doctrine is crazy, but their artwork and illustrations are excellent.

Funny, I always thought the artwork was quite creepy-- a "Stepford" Kingdom!