Current Dissent- "We Call Upon The First Presidency, Quorum Of The Twelve Apostles....

[tyler90az]

Evidently, what needs to change is people's ignorance about the real causes or risk factors for depression (Hint: they have absolutely nothing to do with the things listed in the Busy-Body Manifesto).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did not say I know why many women are depressed. That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). Is it possible that this may contribute a little? Feeling like a second class citizen may contribute.

[tyler90az]

exactly. People are rather presumptuos to think they could counsel the Lord's servants. Heavenly Father knows what people need, He doesn't need members providing their however well-intentioned opnions to His leaders. If God wants to do something, He'll do it.

Just pass out the poisonous koolaid now.

Not saying anything against leadership or anyone in particular. Talking about your line of thinking, which has lead people to bad places in the past.

[rameumptom]

I think their request "to thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray" suggests the General Authorities have done neither. So for that part, their statement is disingenuous.

It is a form of dissent, but I do not think it arises to much. They've given a list of things they'd like to see considered. Some of these are just policy changes, not doctrinal changes. The Church has made policy changes in the past (women praying in Sacrament, for example).

That they are not demanding a change, only a reassurance that the Brethren (and Sisters among the general officers) are thoughtfully and prayerfully considering these things, does not denote all-out rebellion. Personally, if the Lord wishes to allow women to home teach and sit on the high council, I have no problem with it. But I do not think that change is coming any time soon. That said, there are always policies that can be revised to provide more opportunity for sisters to serve and lead.

[CV75]

I see a lot of vain pride in this petition.

I grant that; I usually start with giving folks the benefit of a doubt and then work it from there. It doesn’t take that much longer, allows time for reflection and repentance on the part of any misguided party, and is much less stressful, keeping me open to the influence of the Spirit.

[Cobalt-70]

Even though we pull leaders from or members?

None of the hierarchy are women, so you would expect they would be extra-open to petitions relating to women's issues.

[CV75]

I agree, a bit creepy as well some of the time; but still often nicely done. Their older illustrations tended to be better than their newer ones.

Does this look like it came out of a MAD magazine or what?

Do you consider this a sample of "new" or "old" -- 1992

Edited September 24, 2012 by CV75

[wenglund]

I did not say I know why many women are depressed. That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). Is it possible that this may contribute a little? Feeling like a second class citizen may contribute.

Cognitive distortions like mistakenly viewing oneself as a second class citizen in the Church, may have as much to do with causing depression as a dust particle causing the common cold, and may simply be far more indicative of the need for one to put things into proper perspective.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 24, 2012 by wenglund

[Senator]

exactly. People are rather presumptuos to think they could counsel the Lord's servants. Heavenly Father knows what people need, He doesn't need members providing their however well-intentioned opnions to His leaders. If God wants to do something, He'll do it.

Damn straight!!!

How long do we have to tolerate the Lords tolerance of this cohabition with the tares????

[rameumptom]

exactly. People are rather presumptuos to think they could counsel the Lord's servants. Heavenly Father knows what people need, He doesn't need members providing their however well-intentioned opnions to His leaders. If God wants to do something, He'll do it.

And yet sometimes the Lord withholds opportunities, revelation and blessings, simply because we are not ready for it. When the 1978 revelation came, it was because Pres Kimball spent long hours researching and praying about the issue of blacks and the priesthood. Remember, Elder McConkie and other GAs stated that the blacks would not receive the priesthood until after the Millennium began. That being the case, why would Pres Kimball insist on considering and praying about it, anyway?

There is nothing wrong with asking a prophet to ask and receive an answer in response to a desire to serve. Whether this applies in this case or not, I do not know. But historically, LDS women healed by the laying on of hands, were involved in the Quorum of the Anointed, etc. It isn't that this is a new thing being asked, but whether some earlier powers and authorities can be reimplemented.

I personally do not have an axe to grind in this discussion. I see merit in their request, though I question their wording of it. I see the GAs as being very sincere in regards to such things, but also that revelation often occurs slowly, and usually when there is no huge cry in the land demanding change. The 1978 revelation occurred over a year after such cries and demands ended. It may be that the Lord will make some changes, but only after the loudest and angriest voices are softened to humble requests.

[sheilauk]

I did not say I know why many women are depressed. That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). Is it possible that this may contribute a little? Feeling like a second class citizen may contribute.

I thought that the study said that there were more anti depressents issued to women in Utah, not that there were more depressed women. the level of use of anti depressents and the number of those with depression are not synonymous - for instance the lack of use of self medication via alcohol will be different in Utah. Plus - Utah is not the whole of the LDS.

[wenglund]

Damn straight!!!

How long do we have to tolerate the Lords tolerance of this cohabition with the tares????

I am glad you decided to break your lengthy silence if but to offer up yet one more of your infamous finger-wagging sneers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[tyler90az]

I thought that the study said that there were more anti depressents issued to women in Utah, not that there were more depressed women. the level of use of anti depressents and the number of those with depression are not synonymous - for instance the lack of use of self medication via alcohol will be different in Utah. Plus - Utah is not the whole of the LDS.

What I said was "not eloquently stated"

Edited September 24, 2012 by tyler90az

[Senator]

I am glad you decided to break your lengthy silence if but to offer up yet one more of your infamous finger-wagging sneers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You inspire me!!

Actually, to be more specific...

You inspired me with these like-minded offerings:

"Busy-Body Manifesto"

and

"Ark-Steadier's Motto"

WE love finger- wagging sneers.....

Edited September 24, 2012 by Senator

[rameumptom]

I did not say I know why many women are depressed. That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). Is it possible that this may contribute a little? Feeling like a second class citizen may contribute.

Utah women are not more depressed than elsewhere. They do visit doctors over depression more. Why is that? Because Mormons tend not to self-medicate. If you were to include in the findings the number of drug and alcohol addicts among women in each state, you would find Utah faring much better.

Studies also show that depression is greater in the mountain states than elsewhere. Why? Because it is the mountains.

A bigger factor in depression is what country a person lives in. Those living in wealthier nations tend toward more depression than third world countries. Why? Mostly it is due to the belief that happiness comes from material possessions, which leads to disappointment when happiness is not found there. For the poor, family and religion tend to be their mainstay, which keeps them happier overall.

That women who cannot be prophet, CAN become a leader of a business, Congressperson, etc., shows that depression is not caused by being a SAHM. It can be caused by being a SAHM, who does nothing else with her life except change diapers.

[Freedom]

I went through the list of names and I recognize one of them, based on their name and location. This particular woman is not active and has not been active for at at least 25 years. Not to say that this alone discredits the petition, but I would be surprised if many if any active women care.

Most of the concerns boil down to one demand: give women the priesthood.

This demand comes from the assumption that men, not God, lead the church. If the church is lead by men and not revelation then the church is not true and they are wasting their time.

As for the funding of young women and young men, young men generally get more funding because of the cost of the scouting program. Nevertheless, the division of funds is at the ward level. Salt Lake does not get involved other than to determine how much each stake receives. This type of ignorance demonstrates how distant these women are from the actual functioning of the church. Once you remove the costs of registration, badges and other material, the young women actually have significantly more money. I have found that women do not enjoy going on camps and long hikes so they do not plan them. If these women are not happy with the activities, why don't they volunteer to organize them rather than resorting to putting their name on an on-line petition? This is cowardly and hypocritical.

[Cobalt-70]

exactly. People are rather presumptuos to think they could counsel the Lord's servants. Heavenly Father knows what people need, He doesn't need members providing their however well-intentioned opnions to His leaders. If God wants to do something, He'll do it.

Then why did the LDS Church do member surveys prior to changing the temple ceremony in 1990? Why didn't the church reject the grassroots organization of the Primary organization. If God already "knows what people need," shouldn't the Brethren have thought about the Primary first and let the organization flow down from on high? Or perhaps women might have ideas that wouldn't even register in a male brain.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[tyler90az]

That women who cannot be prophet, CAN become a leader of a business, Congressperson, etc., shows that depression is not caused by being a SAHM. It can be caused by being a SAHM, who does nothing else with her life except change diapers.

That is what I have believed for a long time. Finally, somebody else who sees the cause and how to fix it.

Edited September 24, 2012 by tyler90az

[Freedom]

Then why did the LDS Church do member surveys prior to changing the temple ceremony in 1990? Why didn't the church reject the grassroots organization of the Primary organization. If God already "knows what people need," shouldn't the Brethren have thought about the Primary first and let the organization flow down from on high? Or perhaps women might have ideas that wouldn't even register in a male brain.

The church has a full time research department staffed by 30 professional researchers who hold PHDs in a variety of areas. The majority of their research is commissioned by the 12. The doctrine they follow is that information precedes revelation, but revelation trumps information. Be assured that the brethren are very well informed and any decision they make is taken after a tremendous amount of time is spent gathering information and praying. I have participated in a few of these information gathering projects and I suspect many others here have so as well.

[wenglund]

You inspire me!!

Actually, to be more specific...

You inspired me with these like-minded offerings:

"Busy-Body Manifesto"

and

"Ark-Steadier's Motto"

WE love finger- wagging sneers.....

I am honored. It is not every day that I inspire a Senator.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

I did not say I know why many women are depressed. That is according to a study that says Utah has the most depressed women(sound familiar?). Is it possible that this may contribute a little? Feeling like a second class citizen may contribute.

No, we're actually 3rd class citizens but don't have the time to elaborate. I'll come back to this after I pick my son up for his golf tournament.

[wenglund]

Utah women are not more depressed than elsewhere. They do visit doctors over depression more. Why is that? Because Mormons tend not to self-medicate. If you were to include in the findings the number of drug and alcohol addicts among women in each state, you would find Utah faring much better.

Studies also show that depression is greater in the mountain states than elsewhere. Why? Because it is the mountains.

A bigger factor in depression is what country a person lives in. Those living in wealthier nations tend toward more depression than third world countries. Why? Mostly it is due to the belief that happiness comes from material possessions, which leads to disappointment when happiness is not found there. For the poor, family and religion tend to be their mainstay, which keeps them happier overall.

That women who cannot be prophet, CAN become a leader of a business, Congressperson, etc., shows that depression is not caused by being a SAHM. It can be caused by being a SAHM, who does nothing else with her life except change diapers.

Not to argue with some of your points, but here is a valid list of the major causes for depression:

http://www.webmd.com...uses-depression

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 24, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

No, we're actually 3rd class citizens but don't have the time to elaborate. I'll come back to this after I pick my son up for his golf tournament.

I hope this doesn't devolve into class warfare rhetoric.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

Perhaps they have in mind something like the gender-neutral bible that got its start during the height of the so-called feminist movement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good luck going gender neutral in romance languages.

[KevinG]

A third class citizen having to chauffeur the little man to the golf course. Oh the burdens of the upper-middle class woman!

[bluebell]

No, we're actually 3rd class citizens but don't have the time to elaborate. I'll come back to this after I pick my son up for his golf tournament.

Please don't speak for all women in the church. I, as an LDS woman, am not treated at church like a 2nd or 3rd class citizen and i find it extremely annoying when other women try to imply differently.