Current Dissent- "We Call Upon The First Presidency, Quorum Of The Twelve Apostles....

[zerinus]

Link to the what women know call...

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

I just wrote them and advised them to remove a few of the requests. Namely, participating in blessing and changes to Temple words. Those two things will cause the 15 to automatically disregard the document. Also they will cause members to be reluctant in signing it. My two cents anyways...

I am not a spokesman for the First Presidency; but I can imagine what their response to it might be: "Thank you for suggestions; we will give them due consideration". What are they going to do next?

I would also like to see an indication next to the names of all those who have signed (or written) the petition whether they are members of the Church (in good standing) or not.

Edited September 24, 2012 by zerinus

[wenglund]

This one leaves me scratching my head... Anyone know what they might be referring to?

Perhaps they have in mind something like the gender-neutral bible that got its start during the height of the so-called feminist movement.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BCSpace]

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

4. What would your initial thoughts and emotions be? What action if any would you take?

A disciplinary council likely would be called for anyone whose name appears on this list, if it were known (the key), and they had refused to do so after their Bishop asked them to. That one's name is on this list is likely not going to be known unless such a person is also publically agitating such that their ward/stake is aware of it. One thing we sometimes do in cases of apostasy, if the person has experience speaking/teaching in this venue, is ask the individual to publically speak/teach on the issue in a faithful (to the doctrine) way as part of the repentance process.

Actual cases of apostasy are somewhat rare though as usually all it takes is some private correction without formal or informal discipline though we might be very careful about what callings such a person gets for a awhile.

Edited September 24, 2012 by BCSpace

[tyler90az]

I am not a spokesman for the First Presidency; but I can imagine what their response to it might be: "Thank you for suggestions; we will give them due consideration". What are they going to do next?

I would also like to see an indication next to the names of all those who have signed (or written) the petition whether they are members of the Church (in good standing) or not.

Awareness is the first step. They may be aware that some people have these requests. But do they know how many feel this way? That is why it is important that everybody who feels the same way signs the document. If only a few sign the document it is not giving the 15 a true account on the matter.

The 15 should make a few of the easy changes immediately. That would garner so much respect from the members. It would build credibility that this is the one true church. The Lord does answer prayers... All they would have to do is say, "due to members and our own many prayers the Lord has decided to give us further revelation." Honestly most of them are just simple changes not even needing revelation.

The Church will either gain extremely loyal followers from this or lose more and have half butt ones.

[Mark Beesley]

1. I think a request that the General Authorities thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about a certain matter represents a form of dissent that is trying to negotiate within the very structure it is questioning.

Let's imagine for a moment that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles act on the request that they thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about the issues this group has identified, assuming arguendo they don't already do so. And then imagine the reaction of this group when President Monson responds with a statement that the Lord had advised these folks to cease seeking to counsel their God. Are they going to be satisfied then? I doubt it. I see a lot of vain pride in this petition.

[Saints Alive]

I just wrote them and advised them to remove a few of the requests. Namely, participating in blessing and changes to Temple words. Those two things will cause the 15 to automatically disregard the document. Also they will cause members to be reluctant in signing it. My two cents anyways...

I don't really have a problem with the blessing participation, there is at least some historical precedent for that.

The one thing that came to my mind was how they seem to want the RS president to be on par with the Bishop and SP, even going as far as to say they should sit in on disciplinary councils and High Council meetings, things which are clearly the duty of the Priesthood and the priesthood alone.

[zerinus]

Funny, I always thought the artwork was quite creepy-- a "Stepford" Kingdom!

I agree, a bit creepy as well some of the time; but still often nicely done. Their older illustrations tended to be better than their newer ones.

[tyler90az]

A disciplinary council likely would be called for anyone whose name appears on this list, if it were known (the key), and they had refused to do so after their Bishop asked them to. That one's name is on this list is likely not going to be known unless such a person is also publically agitating such that their ward/stake is aware of it. One thing we sometimes do in cases on apostasy, if the person has experience speaking/teaching in this venue, is ask the individual to publically speak/teach on the issue in a faithful (to the doctrine) way as part of the repentance process.

Quit trying to coerce him not to sign. What a weak tactic, "you will be publicly humiliated."

Edited September 24, 2012 by tyler90az

[Saints Alive]

Let's imagine for a moment that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles act on the request that they thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about the issues this group has identified, assuming arguendo they don't already do so. And then imagine the reaction of this group when President Monson responds with a statement that the Lord had advised these folks to cease seeking to counsel their God. Are they going to be satisfied then? I doubt it. I see a lot of vain pride in this petition.

I'd say the Prophet is likely to take a kinder gentler approach if that was the outcome of his supplication.

[Mark Beesley]

The Church will either gain extremely loyal followers from this or lose more and have half butt ones.

What's a half butt member??? And are they recognized under the ADA?

[BCSpace]

Wow, embarrassing that you would admit that in public.

Not embarrasing at all.

Quit trying to coerce him not to sign. What a weak tactic, "you will be publicly humiliated."

There is no coercion. However, like any organization, one is expected to obey the rules and follow the policy to enjoy the benefits of said organization. Humiliation is completely up to the individual as the Church is merely protecting itself and it's members. Such a person should certainly not be teaching Gospel Essentials or Gospel Doctrine don't you think?

I am disgusted

That is why councils are called in the first place, to know exactly where one stands and if one will do what is asked if one wants the benefits of membership.

Edited September 24, 2012 by BCSpace

[Mark Beesley]

I'd say the Prophet is likely to take a kinder gentler approach if that was the outcome of his supplication.

It wasn't the Prophet's approach in my hypothetical, it was the Lord's approach. The Prophet was just the intermediary.

[wenglund]

I see from the facebook comments that this Busy-Body Manifesto is quickly being pressed into the service of smug political correctness. I suspect this may have been intentional.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[sheilauk]

Link to the what women know call...

Questions.

1. Would you consider this "call" a form of dissent?

yes, I suppose so, as it seems to be a disagreement with current doctrine and a difference of opinion.

2. What do you think about the "mechanism" they chose to use?

i suppose if you want to garner world wide support, you have to use the internet. Not sure how else they would find support or pass their views along, but I guess I'd prefer they'd not made them known outside of the Church.

3. Is this call- in your own opinion, enough to begin looking into possible disciplinary action by general and local level authorities. IN YOUR OWN OPINION. To form an opinion just imagine you were in a leadership position and you had as a member of your flock the organizer of this declaration.

In my opinion, I don't think so.

4. What action if any would you take?

talk with them

I suppose, given the World's view of what women should be, i'm not surprised by their requests. But, I don't think women gain equality by doing exactly the same thing as men. We've been trying that for 30 years and it doesn't seem to have gotten us very far. I feel more equal and respected by the Church than I often feel in the outside world. I think much of what they refer to is happening and can happen but, as always, it depends on the people who are in any particular Ward/Stake/relationship etc. And I think the General Authorities do try to encourage partnership in marriage and full participation of women. And there will always be more male speakers at conference because the General Authorities are all male. I don't think I can agree with quite a few of their requests (i'm not going through all of them individually). I do think men and women are equal but not the same and I don't think that they should be expected to do everything the same. But we do need to respect each other's strengths and roles.

[Saints Alive]

I see from the facebook comments that this Busy-Body Manifesto is quickly being pressed into the service of smug political correctness. I suspect this may have been intentional.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Very much so... and so close to an election with a candidate who struggles with women voters and happens to be LDS. Sometimes I am dumbfounded by the coincidences in this world.

[tyler90az]

Are we happy that many of our women are depressed? Something has to change.

[Cobalt-70]

I don't see anything wrong with this type of petition. If we believe that God is the head of the church, then every prayer we make is a petition to the church hierarchy asking for a change in its behavior. If we ask God to make it rain after a drought, I doubt God would be offended by the implication that we are unpleased by the way he is currently managing the weather.

On a less theoretical level, any organization that does not happily welcome feedback from its members is setting itself up for a situation in which the leadership is insulated from, and less responsive to, the members' concerns.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[BCSpace]

I have to question why they included ex-members. Will these members come back if some changes are made?

What's interesting is that it's not entirely clear who is a member and who is not on the list though by signing one is identifying oneself as a "Mormon woman" (males on the list duly noted). Seems disingenuous and evasive to me.

[zerinus]

Awareness is the first step. They may be aware that some people have these requests. But do they know how many feel this way?

What makes you think that you know? I think that they have a much better idea about that than you do.

[Calm]

Are we happy that many of our women are depressed? Something has to change.

Studies have shown that LDS women are rated as happier than their nonLDS counterparts.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Statistical_claims/LDS_use_of_antidepressants

Edited September 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

On a less theoretical level, any organization that does not happily welcome feedback from its members is setting itself up for a situation in which the leadership is insulated from, and less responsive to, the members' concerns.

Even though we pull leaders from or members?

[sheilauk]

Are we happy that many of our women are depressed? Something has to change.

"many" are "depressed"? Given a worldwide membership of 14million, and say one third are female, even a thousand is not many. And not all cultures view feminism in the same way. There are likely just as many who are okay with the ways things are (i extrapolate from the discussions I've had with a few women friends, I could be wrong of course).

[wenglund]

Are we happy that many of our women are depressed? Something has to change.

Evidently, what needs to change is people's ignorance about the real causes or risk factors for depression (Hint: they have absolutely nothing to do with the things listed in the Busy-Body Manifesto).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[seeker56]

Let's imagine for a moment that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles act on the request that they thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about the issues this group has identified, assuming arguendo they don't already do so. And then imagine the reaction of this group when President Monson responds with a statement that the Lord had advised these folks to cease seeking to counsel their God. Are they going to be satisfied then? I doubt it. I see a lot of vain pride in this petition.

exactly. People are rather presumptuos to think they could counsel the Lord's servants. Heavenly Father knows what people need, He doesn't need members providing their however well-intentioned opnions to His leaders. If God wants to do something, He'll do it.

[wenglund]

I don't see anything wrong with this type of petition. If we believe that God is the head of the church, then every prayer we make is a petition to the church hierarchy asking for a change in its behavior. If we ask God to make it rain after a drought, I doubt God would be offended by the implication that we are unpleased by the way he is currently managing the weather.

Ah...what a sterling example of pretzel logic.

On a less theoretical level, any organization that does not happily welcome feedback from its members is setting itself up for a situation in which the leadership is insulated from, and less responsive to, the members' concerns.

Yes, and here we are treated to the Ark-Steadier's Motto.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-