How Did We End Up Here?

[Alan]

Given that we enjoyed a pre-mortal existance in the celestial kingdom, how did we end up in this telestial kingdom?

I cannot understand why we would choose to be here. We must have done something wrong to end up here in my view. Some will say that it is essential for us to experience this world in order to learn and progress, but progress to where? Back to where we started! How is that progression?

We are taught that this earth will have a terrestrial glory during the millennium, therefore if it is true that a telestial experience is essential, those who are born on the earth at that time will have a profound disadvantage.

The older I get the less sense all this makes to me.

I remember when I was a teenager and my seminary teacher explained that the devil and his angels were cast down to hell. Then I learned they were cast down to earth and that they are here now. No one else in the class seemed to join up the dots, but I was left with a strong suspicion that we are actually in hell.

[Libs]

My understanding was, to gain a physical body and to be tested.

[zerinus]

Given that we enjoyed a pre-mortal existance in the celestial kingdom, how did we end up in this telestial kingdom?

I cannot understand why we would choose to be here. We must have done something wrong to end up here in my view. Some will say that it is essential for us to experience this world in order to learn and progress, but progress to where? Back to where we started! How is that progression?

We are taught that this earth will have a terrestrial glory during the millennium, therefore if it is true that a telestial experience is essential, those who are born on the earth at that time will have a profound disadvantage.

The older I get the less sense all this makes to me.

I remember when I was a teenager and my seminary teacher explained that the devil and his angels were cast down to hell. Then I learned they were cast down to earth and that they are here now. No one else in the class seemed to join up the dots, but I was left with a strong suspicion that we are actually in hell.

You sound like this world is giving you a hard time! But to answer your questions, according to modern revelation:

D&C 93:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

So acquiring a physical body is necessary for us to obtaining a fullness of joy. Satan and his crew are denied that privilege. Joseph Smith also taught that those who have physical bodies have power over those who do not. As for the reasons why we came here, the Book of Abraham gives the answer:

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

[Maidservant]

Given that we enjoyed a pre-mortal existance in the celestial kingdom, how did we end up in this telestial kingdom?

I cannot understand why we would choose to be here. We must have done something wrong to end up here in my view. Some will say that it is essential for us to experience this world in order to learn and progress, but progress to where? Back to where we started! How is that progression?

We are taught that this earth will have a terrestrial glory during the millennium, therefore if it is true that a telestial experience is essential, those who are born on the earth at that time will have a profound disadvantage.

The older I get the less sense all this makes to me.

I remember when I was a teenager and my seminary teacher explained that the devil and his angels were cast down to hell. Then I learned they were cast down to earth and that they are here now. No one else in the class seemed to join up the dots, but I was left with a strong suspicion that we are actually in hell.

I have been going another round with questions of these sort and I am not sure I am at a point where I can express and share what I have learned because I am mid-stream in the learning process.

But, Alan, these questions are the ones God wants you to ask.

WHY would we leave our celestial home to arrive here in hell/telestial world?

WHY?

It's amazing not because there isn't an answer, but because there IS.

The answer in a word is to obtain charity (its scriptural meaning, I sometimes wish there was another word).

But what does that word mean?

We are also in the process of binding ourselves together into a community (church of the Firstborn).

There is so much, but it takes a while to learn it, piece by piece. Just set your questions out there, and God will start to guide you in opening your eyes.

The building temple that we attend is the SIGN or TOKEN of the actual temples/gardens which is the world/our bodies/our lives. The ordinances are tokens of the actual progressions we are in the process of, individually and as a humanity.

The actual endowment is in our LIFE, daily living, and the endowment in the temple is a map that allows us to understand how to obtain the actual endowment from our actual life.

We are here to obtain all that the Father has.

We are here to not be sons or children any longer, but to be kings, fathers and mothers.

We are here because while there is great joy in receiving, the true joy is giving.

And we cannot know the reality of giving except in a world like this. We had to enter a world where we would be called upon to sacrifice.

We cannot ignite into our exaltation until we sacrifice (learn about the physical workings of the SUN).

The gift, the treasure, that our Father has offered to us, is to become sacrificers, or Christs, or Anointed ones, rescuers of our brothers and sisters, and we have also been given the seeds of endless posterity already.

You will not be fully formed if you are celestial when you are given a celestial world (as the one we had).

You can only be fully formed if you are celestial when you are given a hell world and STILL be or become celestial.

We have descended below all things.

So those are a few things. There are more. Enjoy the study .

Edited September 1, 2012 by Maidservant

[mercyngrace]

Maidservant,

One essential reason Christ came was to learn to succor His people.

He is our model.

There you have it.

[Sis W.]

So before Christ had a body----all the millenia he was worshiped as Jehovah---he did not know how to succor his people???

[mercyngrace]

So before Christ had a body----all the millenia he was worshiped as Jehovah---he did not know how to succor his people???

According to Alma 7:12, He had to take on the infirmities of mortality in order to succor us according to the flesh and so that His bowels would be filled with mercy.

[Maidservant]

So before Christ had a body----all the millenia he was worshiped as Jehovah---he did not know how to succor his people???

We all had many lessons and experiences before we embarked on this particular world. We brought who we already are with us. And now will learn (and obtain) more. Obviously, the being who was born as the man Yeshua and who also is THE Lamb had eons of experience and preparation before arriving here and was in a state of charity and exaltation already. Whether he learned more--probably, but not necessarily, depending on your own answers as you read the scriptures.

But still he came, to make it possible for us to be reconciled to God as well.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Maidservant

[Kenngo1969]

As an unembodied spirit, Christ came as near to perfection as any being can. But compare Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48 and note the difference between the two. Therein lies part of your answer.

[Alvino]

My understanding was, to gain a physical body and to be tested.

If Adam and Eve had a physical body before ever passing through mortality, why not us? And, were we not tested in the previous life when Satan tempted us to follow Him and, just so you see how strong his temptation was, a full third followed him? Therefore, there is precedent that we can both have bodies and be tempted and 'fall from grace' without having to suffer famine, death of our children, bullying, poverty, etc.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Alvino

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Given that we enjoyed a pre-mortal existance in the celestial kingdom, how did we end up in this telestial kingdom?

I cannot understand why we would choose to be here. We must have done something wrong to end up here in my view. Some will say that it is essential for us to experience this world in order to learn and progress, but progress to where? Back to where we started! How is that progression?

We are taught that this earth will have a terrestrial glory during the millennium, therefore if it is true that a telestial experience is essential, those who are born on the earth at that time will have a profound disadvantage.

The older I get the less sense all this makes to me.

I remember when I was a teenager and my seminary teacher explained that the devil and his angels were cast down to hell. Then I learned they were cast down to earth and that they are here now. No one else in the class seemed to join up the dots, but I was left with a strong suspicion that we are actually in hell.

To grow, to learn...and too have grand babies...

[Alvino]

According to Alma 7:12, He had to take on the infirmities of mortality in order to succor us according to the flesh

That would explain all the weird and cruel rules and regulations he imposed on his chosen people; he hadn't learn to succor us according to the flesh.

and so that His bowels would be filled with mercy.

...though he is portrayed as merciful already. Hosea 11: 5-9

5“He shall not return to the land of Egypt;

But the Assyrian shall be his king,

Because they refused to repent.

⁶ And the sword shall slash in his cities,

Devour his districts,

And consume them,

Because of their own counsels.

⁷ My people are bent on backsliding from Me.

Though they call to the Most High,

None at all exalt Him.

⁸ “How can I give you up, Ephraim?

How can I hand you over, Israel?

How can I make you like Admah?

How can I set you like Zeboiim?

My heart churns within Me;

My sympathy is stirred.

⁹ I will not execute the fierceness of My anger;

I will not again destroy Ephraim.

For I am God, and not man,

The Holy One in your midst;

And I will not come with terror.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Alvino

[Alvino]

To grow, to learn...and too have grand babies...

about growing and learning..

YHWH did it without a body, why couldn't we?

About having grand babies.

Pa Pa, God knows how to create bodies that'll last forever, have children (his own body... he designed those, right?), and others that will rot. What's so impossible about him giving us bodies like those of Adam and Eve but with the ability to have children? Seems like a very small and arbitrary limitation to what God can do.

[Maidservant]

Beautiful poem in Hosea. Awesome.

[mercyngrace]

That would explain all the weird and cruel rules and regulations he imposed on his chosen people; he hadn't learn to succor us according to the flesh.

...though he is portrayed as merciful already. Hosea 11: 5-9

And He describes Himself as merciful other places also. But apparently it took descending below all things. even mortal infirmities and mortal death, for Him to claim the rights of mercy (Mor 7:27). It was precisely because He humbled Himself and "became obedient unto death" and these other infirmities that "God hath also highly exalted Him". (Phil 2:8-9)

[CV75]

Given that we enjoyed a pre-mortal existance in the celestial kingdom, how did we end up in this telestial kingdom?

In order to learn to live obediently by faith in Christ, we had to descend into a condition where doing so was impossible except that Christ should descend into it with us, and then descend further below (suffer for our sins in innocence) and ascend (become exalted) above all things. This was voluntary on the part of all involved.

It is impossible to live by faith in the telestial world (except Christ should come) because we are separated from the Father physically and spiritually. The penetration of the light of Christ into the souls of everyone ever born, the mortal presence and deeds of Christ on this earth and the Gospel message prevents our complete abandonment and why this is not exactly hell.

Those spirits that are born into bodies carry with us some talent of spirituality developed in the premortal life, for we are here voluntarily, and we each taste something of the goodness of God. Those who dwell here only as devils did not want what God offered, so it is a form of hell for them.

[CV75]

So before Christ had a body----all the millenia he was worshiped as Jehovah---he did not know how to succor his people???

He did, but He had not. as of yet, actually worked out our redemption (atonement, resurrection) in the the telestial world. He had not yet been in fact resurrceted and exalted, in deed as well as in word and in promise. Of course the redemption is as real and effective to those who lived before as well as during and after His coming, so for all intents and purposes he did know how to succor His people all along.

[rpn]

We didn't enjoy a pre-existence in the celestial kingdom. Where do you get that from. We have no knowledge of the amount and type of contact we had with Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ and others, though we know we knew Them and that They knew us. It might even be true that we lived with Them. But that doesn't mean it was the "celestial kingdom".

[Sis W.]

That was a tongue in cheek question. I am fairly familiar with the standard works and of course the Lord loved and cared for his people. In sorrows and tribulations just to know that you are loved is of immense comfort. When I was in college I took a class "The Bible as Literature" and the Prof taught the God of the Old Testament as a jealous,vengeful, thoroughly unpleasant being. This was confusing to me so one day I asked him if he had ever read the OT all the way through. He said he had not and I said "That's what I thought" This year I am studying Isaiah and depiction of the Lord as our defender, our deliverer as well as the suffering servant clearly shows his infinite love and mercy for his children.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

about growing and learning..

YHWH did it without a body, why couldn't we?

About having grand babies.

Pa Pa, God knows how to create bodies that'll last forever, have children (his own body... he designed those, right?), and others that will rot. What's so impossible about him giving us bodies like those of Adam and Eve but with the ability to have children? Seems like a very small and arbitrary limitation to what God can do.

He did create perfect bodies...and YHWH did have a body..."he learned obedience from the things which he suffered" and "became the author of our salvation"...Book of Hebrews.

[Maidservant]

We didn't enjoy a pre-existence in the celestial kingdom. Where do you get that from. We have no knowledge of the amount and type of contact we had with Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ and others, though we know we knew Them and that They knew us. It might even be true that we lived with Them. But that doesn't mean it was the "celestial kingdom".

Technically I think you are more or less right, or at least there is something here in your question that can be more deeply examined. As you acknowledge, every 3 year old Primary child is taught that we lived in heaven and that we are here to return to live with our Heavenly Father. The connotation is that we will be restored to a previous condition (with additional gifts). But what all that really means, and what the scriptures actually present, yes I think could be more examined at least in myself because my understanding is not based on chapter and verse but more on what I learned in Primary.

When you say amount and type of contact, while I sometimes question and am in fact in the middle of questioning my exact relationship to my heavenly Father, nevertheless, the leaders in recent general conferences (and for how long?) have taken some pains to say many times that our heavenly Father is personal and that we already know him. If he is my Father, then that is it. I shouldn't have to guess too far how that might have played out in the past or does play out now or will play out in eternity.

Just kind of riffing here based on your comments, not really contradicting you or anything. You acknowledge that we lived with them but that it wasn't the celestial kingdom. I think, simply, that whatever home our heavenly Parents provided would have been celestial due to their nature. But what makes you feel otherwise? (Real question, curious where your thoughts are on that.) I would agree that we were not complete as beings, so on that basis, perhaps it cannot be termed celestial.

Also the word and concept of "The Fall" suggests that we existed in a higher existence in at least some sense so that coming here can even be termed a Fall (and as I seem to recall one leader calling a Fall Forward, lol--down, yes, but forward also).

[rodheadlee]

I thought we came here to get a body, learn charity, learn to hear the Holy Spirit in a telestial situation.

[CV75]

If Adam and Eve had a physical body before ever passing through mortality, why not us? And, were we not tested in the previous life when Satan tempted us to follow Him and, just so you see how strong his temptation was, a full third followed him? Therefore, there is precedent that we can both have bodies and be tempted and 'fall from grace' without having to suffer famine, death of our children, bullying, poverty, etc.

In one sense, we are as Adam and Eve, and they only did what any of the rest of us would have eventually done. Somebody had to be the first to have descendants, and they were chosen for this role.

I think suffering is relative. A paradisiacal condition with only one commandment and one forbidden choice, with powerful enticements to partake of the fruit of the two trees (one to live without multiplying and one to die and multiply) produced a form of suffering in teh form of a quandary, in opposition to the form of joy they had in the stability of sharing an existence together.

[CV75]

God knows how to create bodies that'll last forever, have children (his own body... he designed those, right?), and others that will rot. What's so impossible about him giving us bodies like those of Adam and Eve but with the ability to have children? Seems like a very small and arbitrary limitation to what God can do.

I believe the reason immortal beings are not given the key to reproduce other immortal beings without experiencing the opposites of death and immortality is in the meaning of life: joy. Joy in its various forms, which are ultimately exaltation cannot be had if its opposite, death, is not experienced. There is no joy in having an immortal body and no way to appreciate it, so there is no purpose in perpetuating the state of non-joy through immortal reproduction.

For this reason, I believe Jesus attained Godhood status a Spirit, but could not complete His exaltation without going the rest of the way.

[Libs]

We didn't enjoy a pre-existence in the celestial kingdom. Where do you get that from. We have no knowledge of the amount and type of contact we had with Heavenly Parents and Jesus Christ and others, though we know we knew Them and that They knew us. It might even be true that we lived with Them. But that doesn't mean it was the "celestial kingdom".

I was wondering about that. Where was our pre-existence? I thought Heavenly Father only resided in the Celestial Kingdom?