The beguiling by Satan

[halconero]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm more literalist than most but while I consider the partaking of mortal elements to cause the fall as one possibility I am equally open to the possibility that the "fruit" had a direct correlation with the procreation of mortal children and was therefore symbolic of something else as represented by the placement of the fig leaves.

I'm also of the "why not both?" school of thought. Just because something is literal doesn't mean it isn't symbolic/metaphorical either. Adam and Eve serve both as our Father and Mother, but also as a type and shadow for ourselves. We take upon ourselves their names just as much as take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What about Moses' Brazen serpent?.

 

Probably less cunning than a non-brazen serpent

[Atheist Mormon]

On 9/21/2016 at 10:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

The Creation & Garden story is a mystery play with eternal meaning, 

Imagine that we run our science under the same premises.......

[Robert F. Smith]

45 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Imagine that we run our science under the same premises.......

Imagine that we are deaf, dumb and blind to the intricacies of anthropology, history, and literature.  That is what you are recommending, and it is likewise anti-science.

[Atheist Mormon]

36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Imagine that we are deaf, dumb and blind to the intricacies of anthropology, history, and literature.  That is what you are recommending, and it is likewise anti-science.

"The Creation & Garden story is a mystery play with eternal meaning," You wrote this? I don't understand anything about the mysteries, meaning, eternal.......How do I translate this mumbo/jumbo into something real?

[Robert F. Smith]

53 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"The Creation & Garden story is a mystery play with eternal meaning," You wrote this? I don't understand anything about the mysteries, meaning, eternal.......How do I translate this mumbo/jumbo into something real?

You might want to take a gander at http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/medieval/mystery_plays.php , and at http://potnia.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/ancient-mystery-cults-pagan-doctrines-of-salvation/ .  This is real history, not mumbo-jumbo.

[Atheist Mormon]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You might want to take a gander at http://www.english.cam.ac.uk/medieval/mystery_plays.php , and at http://potnia.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/ancient-mystery-cults-pagan-doctrines-of-salvation/ .  This is real history, not mumbo-jumbo.

 

The Fall of Lucifer

The Creation and Fall of Man

Cain and Abel

Noah's Flood

Abraham and Isaac

Moses

The Prophets

The Nativity (Annunciation; Shepherds; Purification; Magi; Flight into Egypt; Massacre of the Innocents)

The Baptism of Christ

The Temptation of Christ

Raising of Lazarus

The Passion (Conspiracy; Judas; Last Supper; Caiphas; Trial; Crucifixion)

The Resurrection

The Ascension

The Assumption and Coronation of the Virgin Mary

The Last Judgement

 

Let's have an example, which one of this points is not "MumboJumbo"......I say all of them but the one takes the cake for me is;........ "The resurrection" and subsequent  "Second Coming" ...How many generations fooled by this promise? 

Oh, I missed the one takes the cake; "Noah's Flood", any of you believe this nonsensical story?

[Robert F. Smith]

Just now, Atheist Mormon said:

 

The Fall of Lucifer

The Creation and Fall of Man

Cain and Abel

Noah's Flood

Abraham and Isaac

Moses

The Prophets

The Nativity (Annunciation; Shepherds; Purification; Magi; Flight into Egypt; Massacre of the Innocents)

The Baptism of Christ

The Temptation of Christ

Raising of Lazarus

The Passion (Conspiracy; Judas; Last Supper; Caiphas; Trial; Crucifixion)

The Resurrection

The Ascension

The Assumption and Coronation of the Virgin Mary

The Last Judgement

 

Let's have an example, which one of this points is not "MumboJumbo"......I say all of them but the one takes the cake for me is;........ "The resurrection" and subsequent  "Second Coming" ...How many generations fooled by this promise? 

Oh, I missed the one takes the cake; "Noah's Flood", any of you believe this nonsensical story?

Anthropologists and historians are not much interested in whether there is in fact a god, or whether there was a real Resurrection.  For them, real history entails the beliefs and practices of various peoples under study.  Ethnographers chronicle such beliefs and practices through interviews and through careful study of various types of literature, mystery plays, and rites of initiation -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_passage .

As usual, you entirely miss the point.

[Guest]

On September 17, 2016 at 3:23 PM, theplains said:

I had a question on this part of the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 9:9 says, "And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, 
angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the 
father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first 
parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the 
children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of 
darkness."

There are other references to the beguiling of our first parents in Mosiah 16:3 and
Ether 8:15.  

I know from the Bible that Eve was beguiled by Satan (2 Corinthians 11:3) and that
Eve was deceived, not Adam (1 Timothy 2:14).

In what way does the author of the Book of Mormon feel Adam was also beguiled?

Thanks,
Jim

Eve was beguiled and used the same beguiling method on Adam...thus Satan beguiled them both. It was the same half truth that in their innocence they succumbed too. They were supposed to mature on their own to the point that they together would see the need of partaking of the fruit (whatever) that was. Instead, Satan used that innocent state to beguile and deceive...this is why he was punished as he was, and why God was so angry. If being cast out of heaven were not enough? Satan still uses the innocence of our young in an attempt to destroy them, and thank God the Father for giving all of us a way to destroy Satan's plan for us. Although, I wish Satan had a body for 10 mins in a room with each of us so we could give him his due. 

[theplains]

On 22/09/2016 at 0:05 AM, JLHPROF said:

I'm more literalist than most but while I consider the partaking of mortal elements to cause the fall as one possibility I am equally open to the possibility that the "fruit" had a direct correlation with the procreation of mortal children and was therefore symbolic of something else as represented by the placement of the fig leaves.

The placement of the fig leaves represented their shame. These garments, bearing similar insignia, are still worn
today.

Regards,
Jim

[Nofear]

On 09/21/2016 at 3:49 AM, waveslider said:

I don't know exactly why, but I have an idea that seems pretty logical to me:

When my kids were really little, and they loved to flip switches and turn knobs of any kind, I had to make sure they never turned the stove knobs. It could potentially burn our entire house down and kill us all, if they were allowed to do that while they were little. Once they grew enough to learn about responsibility, and learn to cook and things, that rule was changed and they were now allowed to turn those knobs. I would have made sure my baby sitter was in trouble if the sitter told my toddlers that it was okay because other kids have done it, in other houses.

Perhaps the command to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge was only there until Adam and Eve were more ready to move on to that step and therefore be allowed, having a controlled fall rather than the premature, reckless fall that was experienced. Just a thought anyway.

I have long taken essentially this position as well. Satan was trying to mess up a plan that had been enacted on countless prior worlds by prematurely introducing Eve and Adam to the fruit.

I also hold that as punishment Satan had his travel ability revoked (cursed to eat the dust of the earth) so he couldn't try his shenanigans on other worlds.

But, you'll find it isn't a popular position. Somehow people like the idea of God's plan being contingent on the willful disobedience of one of their choice children... every single time for every single world. /shrug

[waveslider]

13 hours ago, Nofear said:

I have long taken essentially this position as well. Satan was trying to mess up a plan that had been enacted on countless prior worlds by prematurely introducing Eve and Adam to the fruit.

I also hold that as punishment Satan had his travel ability revoked (cursed to eat the dust of the earth) so he couldn't try his shenanigans on other worlds.

But, you'll find it isn't a popular position. Somehow people like the idea of God's plan being contingent on the willful disobedience of one of their choice children... every single time for every single world. /shrug

I'm not saying that this is the truth of the matter. I'm only illustrating that there are scenarios that could make it very logical as to why Satan was punished for doing what was previously done somewhere else, that most people won't see because they tend to not naturally think outside the box. I'm sure there are other scenarios that could fit just as well, if I could think of them. I just used this one for an example. We don't know what happened exactly and what God's plan was exactly. Perhaps the popular position is correct, but perhaps it isn't.