Adam And Eve Were "wise" In The Garden?

[Five Solas]

So, you think the eternal plan of salvation was to have a world full of naked people who do not know good from evil, and the only rule is do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

When God completed creation on the 6th day - He called it "very good" (Genesis 1:31).  You seem to be suggesting He was wrong, that the result was absurd (naked people!) and incomplete (not enough rules).  You can't both be right...

;0)

 

--Erik

Edited November 1, 2015 by Five Solas

[theplains]

I can appreciate your position, Jim, but given that what I wrote is doctrine, it was not hard to find references.

 

Great!  Thank you for those references.

 

Jim

[Meadowchik]

I think the innocent can be very wise: “even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were [--a play on words on my part to reflect Eve’s action--] forbidden… (3 Nephi 26:16).”

Psalms 2:8 of course shows how God has ordained that even the most innocent will confound His enemies, and the “wise” (D&C 133:58).

And yet these innocent whom you reference are innocent in a fallen world. Adam and Eve were not in a fallen world at first.

It's probably not a state with which we can easily relate.

I'm reminded of Christ and His knowledge premortally of His mission. He knew, yet He didn't know the full physical experience until He lived it.

The experience of Adam and Eve in the Garden State was different than any that every other human ever had or will have.

I'm not insisting they could not be wise, but surely, their experience is probably not as plain as we'd like to think.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

When God completed creation on the 6th day - He called it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). You seem to be suggesting He was wrong, that the result was absurd (naked people!) and incomplete (not enough rules). You can't both be right...

;0)

--Erik

That's a strange* claim to make from that scripture, imo.

I've given birth a few times, and there is a point when the baby catcher (usually doctor) will say, "Beautiful, there's the head. Stop pushing. Very good."

At this point mommy is straddling in agonised tension while the doctor checks the baby and shoulders, etc...before the rest of the baby's body is delivered. She is doing great, she is doing very well.

But, obviously she's not done. There's a pause which may feel like an eternity, but she's not done!

*one strange example for another

We know the work was not finished on the 6th day. Creation, yes, but the work of God was far from complete.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Meadowchik

[Five Solas]

That's a strange* claim to make from that scripture, imo.

I've given birth a few times, and there is a point when the baby catcher (usually doctor) will say, "Beautiful, there's the head. Stop pushing. Very good."

At this point mommy is straddling in agonised tension while the doctor checks the baby and shoulders, etc...before the rest of the baby's body is delivered. She is doing great, she is doing very well.

But, obviously she's not done. There's a pause which may feel like an eternity, but she's not done!

*one strange example for another

We know the work was not finished on the 6th day. Creation, yes, but the work of God was far from complete.

With all due respect Meadowchik (and I've been present for the birth of my 3 children) - this doesn't feel like the right analogy for God's work as described in Genesis 1:31.  God was not straddling in agonized tension, etc.  That childbirth is painful is a consequence of the Fall (Genesis 3:16), not an inherent aspect of creation. 

 

--Erik

[Meadowchik]

With all due respect Meadowchik (and I've been present for the birth of my 3 children) - this doesn't feel like the right analogy for God's work as described in Genesis 1:31. God was not straddling in agonized tension, etc. That childbirth is painful is a consequence of the Fall (Genesis 3:16), not an inherent aspect of creation.

--Erik

You can omit the analogy and just go with the last thing I said then (although I do think it works.)

The work of Creation ended but the work of God had not.

[Tony Frank]

I agree with you that this is the doctrine, but sometimes I see LDS paint Eve's decision as if it was "the right thing to do".   Technically it was not the right thing to do.  It was necessary, but I don't think that she knew that it was necessary.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Maybe I misspoke when I said "LDS leaders".  Maybe just "some LDS intellectuals", but I feel like I have seen some general authorities lean in this way as well, or maybe how I have seen it acted out in LDS portrayals.

 

I think we should be careful in our words.  The Fall was necessary and "fortunate" in a certain sense, but in another sense it was "unfortunate".  It is not "good" in and of itself.  Wouldn't it have been better if Adam and Eve could have fulfilled BOTH commands (multiply and replenish the Earth as well as refrain from partaking of the fruit)?

 

 

 

-Stephen

 

God cast Satan down to the newly created earth for a reason. God knew Satan could not help himself and would provide the opposition. Everything actually happened according to God's plan.

 

People can say what they want about Eve's inability to overcome Satan, but for me it is a nonissue and has no bearing on my salvation.

[Meadowchik]

God cast Satan down to the newly created earth for a reason. God knew Satan could not help himself and would provide the opposition. Everything actually happened according to God's plan.

People can say what they want about Eve's inability to overcome Satan, but for me it is a nonissue and has no bearing on my salvation.

Yet the whole point is that, had they acted differently, Adam and Eve might have started the world out where we're all on a much better footing than we are now.

I've concluded, whether the Garden story is literal or allegorical, that God would have provided a way for us had our first parents not transgressed.

My feeling is that Eve chose, that on some level she knew she'd be foregoing the immediate blessing of God's presence, in favor of obeying the other commands.

I do agree that Satan deceived, though. Life, as it is in the fallen state, is not enough. Eternal life is the goal, and it starts now, and we're closer to it through divine Mediation when we choose good over evil, not just merely when we know good and evil, the latter being Satan's lie.

Thus, I would sincerely doubt that any other plan would have not involved such a state of dualism. Those believing that our First Parents ruined a swell deal might not have been any more impressed with the alternative. Obviously, though, we don't know.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

And yet these innocent whom you reference are innocent in a fallen world. Adam and Eve were not in a fallen world at first.

It's probably not a state with which we can easily relate.

I'm reminded of Christ and His knowledge premortally of His mission. He knew, yet He didn't know the full physical experience until He lived it.

The experience of Adam and Eve in the Garden State was different than any that every other human ever had or will have.

I'm not insisting they could not be wise, but surely, their experience is probably not as plain as we'd like to think.

To whatever degree we might be able to relate to their paradisiacal experience, I think that trying to understand our leaders’ remarks on their having wisdom might help us relate somewhat to it (I do this in recalling my own experience with developing from childhood innocence into accountability, and what I’ve observed from time to time in children… spiritually speaking, children in a sense experience paradise; at least they can bring a bit of heaven into my fallen world--even wisdom (Alma 32:23)!), but more importantly to appreciate such doctrinal truths as Moses 5:11, which is in line with 2 Nephi 2:24.

[Alan]

So, you think the eternal plan of salvation was to have a world full of naked people who do not know good from evil, and the only rule is do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

I never said that.

But Lucifer was at the council too and knew the plan. He wasn't going to do anything to help because he was opposed to it. So he turned up to try and thwart the plan and was pretty pleased with himself.

My own view is that although he correctly pointed out that what had been done had been done in other worlds, he knew he had jumped in too soon for the plan to work as it should.

In other words, Adam and Eve were not yet ready to eat the fruit. They were being visited by God on a regular basis and were no doubt learning much from these occasions. There would have come a time when they were ready to move on and God would have said "OK, I originally told you not to eat that fruit, but you're now ready so go ahead". Adam and Eve would have become mortal, but not have fallen through disobedience.

[stephenpurdy]

So the event that enables us to gain bodies, become like God, and gain a resurrection is a fortunate coincidental result of a mistake, and not the plan?

Not buying it.

 

 

No.  I am saying that it was God's plan all along.  Of course God knew he was dealing with imperfect people, and thus God knew that the Fall would occur.

 

-Stephen

[stephenpurdy]

"Mormons consider Eve a hero, believing she was an intelligent and unselfish woman who chose to make life harder for herself in order to bring about God’s plan....God knew Adam and Eve were intelligent and unselfish enough to eventually give up their perfect life in order to introduce the full measure of mortality. ... This demonstrates that Eve did not do something awful—instead, she did something very brave."  http://ldsblogs.com/...eve-left-garden

 

 

 

"Why did Eve and then Adam eat the fruit? Help class members understand that Adam and Eve acted with understanding and used freedom of choice. They realized that if they did not eat the fruit, they would not be able to have children and they would not be able to learn to make righteous decisions. They wisely chose to eat the fruit."  https://www.lds.org/...nd-eve?lang=eng

 

This is what I believe (mostly).

 

 

The scriptures say that Eve was deceived.  Do you disagree?

 

 

-Stephen

[stephenpurdy]

I can appreciate your position, Jim, but given that what I wrote is doctrine, it was not hard to find references.

 

“She subsequently encouraged Adam to partake. Adam concluded that God’s command to remain with his wife was more important than His command to abstain from the fruit. Thus in the face of this enticement, ‘Adam fell that men might be.’”

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/01/the-choice-that-began-mortality?lang=eng

 

 

“Adam chose to partake of the forbidden fruit rather than become separated from Eve. Adam and Eve fell so we could be born into mortality.”

 

https://institute.lds.org/bc/content/institute/materials/english/teacher-resources/religion-327-pearl-of-great-price-teacher-manualeng.pdf

 

 

“Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam fell that men might be.’”

 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35311_eng.pdf

 

 

“The adversary, Lucifer, through the serpent, beguiled Eve and deceived her and induced her to eat of the forbidden fruit. It was not so with Adam. . . . He knew that unless he did partake there would be an eternal separation between him and the partner that God had given to him, so he transgressed the law. . . . Because had he not partaken of the fruit, they would have been eternally separated.”

 

https://institute.lds.org/bc/content/institute/materials/english/student-manuals/religion-430-431-doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manualeng.pdf

 

 

“Then, telling Adam what she had done, she urged him to eat of the fruit also. Adam found himself in a position that made it impossible for him to obey both of the specific commandments given by the Lord. He and his wife had been commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Adam had not yet fallen to the state of mortality, but Eve already had; and in such dissimilar conditions the two could not remain together, and therefore could not fulfil the divine requirement as to procreation. On the other hand, Adam would be disobeying another commandment by yielding to Eve’s request. He deliberately and wisely decided to stand by the first and greater commandment; and, therefore, with understanding of the nature of his act, he also partook of the fruit that grew on the tree of knowledge.”

 

“Eve, beguiled by Satan transgressed and was to be cast out of the Garden. Adam chose to obey the first commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.”

 

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/binary-content/general/basic-doctrines-inservice-resources.pdf

 

 

Saying that Eve was deceived and Adam made a wise decision is not a politically correct way to teach it.  But ... it is what it is I guess.

 

-Stephen

[stephenpurdy]

When God completed creation on the 6th day - He called it "very good" (Genesis 1:31).  You seem to be suggesting He was wrong, that the result was absurd (naked people!) and incomplete (not enough rules).  You can't both be right...

;0)

 

--Erik

 

For starters,

 

He said it was "very good" , and it was.  But He did not say it was "perfect", he did not say that progress was impossible from that point.  You just invented a false dichotomy.

 

Second,

 

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."  (Genesis 3:

 

Question:  When God was walking around in the Garden of Eden ... was God naked too?

 

Question:  In Heaven, are we all going to be naked?  Is Heaven a nudist colony?

 

-Stephen

[stephenpurdy]

And yet these innocent whom you reference are innocent in a fallen world. Adam and Eve were not in a fallen world at first.

It's probably not a state with which we can easily relate.

I'm reminded of Christ and His knowledge premortally of His mission. He knew, yet He didn't know the full physical experience until He lived it.

The experience of Adam and Eve in the Garden State was different than any that every other human ever had or will have.

I'm not insisting they could not be wise, but surely, their experience is probably not as plain as we'd like to think.

 

I think I have to agree with you here.  I don't think we can truly make claim on exactly what they understood or did not understand.

 

The problem I have with the situation we see in LDS circles, is that the text clearly says that Eve was deceived, but then ... perhaps in an attempt to be sensitive to women, we try to turn it around and make it seem that she was the smartest one in the room. 

 

The scriptures are just wrong then?

 

-Stephen

[stephenpurdy]

I never said that.

But Lucifer was at the council too and knew the plan. He wasn't going to do anything to help because he was opposed to it. So he turned up to try and thwart the plan and was pretty pleased with himself.

My own view is that although he correctly pointed out that what had been done had been done in other worlds, he knew he had jumped in too soon for the plan to work as it should.

In other words, Adam and Eve were not yet ready to eat the fruit. They were being visited by God on a regular basis and were no doubt learning much from these occasions. There would have come a time when they were ready to move on and God would have said "OK, I originally told you not to eat that fruit, but you're now ready so go ahead". Adam and Eve would have become mortal, but not have fallen through disobedience.

 

Satan knows that entering mortality happened on other worlds, but did he know the details.  Did he know that it was done by having an adversary present the deception?

 

 

Furthermore, the point I made in the video is this:  Satan had nothing to gain by them staying in the garden.  Satan had no true power over them when they had no knowledge of good or evil.  Satan wants them to know good and evil, so that he can try to convince them to choose evil.  Furthermore, Satan planned to thwart Christ's mission when the time came. 

 

Leaving Adam and Eve in the garden gets Satan nowhere.

 

-Stephen

 

 

Edited November 3, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[Meadowchik]

I think I have to agree with you here. I don't think we can truly make claim on exactly what they understood or did not understand.

The problem I have with the situation we see in LDS circles, is that the text clearly says that Eve was deceived, but then ... perhaps in an attempt to be sensitive to women, we try to turn it around and make it seem that she was the smartest one in the room.

The scriptures are just wrong then?

-Stephen

It's possible that Eve got something right AND did something wrong.

That's pretty much the story for most of our gospel heroes, isn't it?

[Maedros]

It's possible that Eve got something right AND did something wrong.

That's pretty much the story for most of our gospel heroes, isn't it?

 

True that; Abraham lied about his relationship to Sarah, he was also commanded to commit ritual sacrifice of his son to prove his faithfulness, Rebecca and Jacob deceived Isaac; Jacob also was deceived and the blessing fell to Ephraim; Judah had an adulterous relationship with his daughter-in-law and from that conception came the ancestry of Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world. At every point the devil tries to thwart the plans of God but he proves to be but an instrument in the bringing to pass things far greater than what he imagined. Out of polygamy came a strong focus on family and child bearing; out of the priesthood ban comes exponential growth in Africa - the Lord is the ultimate contingency planner. Always the doctrine of receiving blessings after trial of faith is at play.

[Five Solas]

True that; Abraham lied about his relationship to Sarah, he was also commanded to commit ritual sacrifice of his son to prove his faithfulness, Rebecca and Jacob deceived Isaac; Jacob also was deceived and the blessing fell to Ephraim; Judah had an adulterous relationship with his daughter-in-law and from that conception came the ancestry of Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world. At every point the devil tries to thwart the plans of God but he proves to be but an instrument in the bringing to pass things far greater than what he imagined. Out of polygamy came a strong focus on family and child bearing; out of the priesthood ban comes exponential growth in Africa - the Lord is the ultimate contingency planner. Always the doctrine of receiving blessings after trial of faith is at play.

You appear to suggest the devil was behind the LDS practices of polygamy and the priesthood ban, Maedros.  And that God used bad to achieve good.  I'm not sure many LDS would agree.  Did you really intend to draw a connection between these practices and Satan?

 

--Erik

[JLHPROF]

"Mormons consider Eve a hero, believing she was an intelligent and unselfish woman who chose to make life harder for herself in order to bring about God’s plan....God knew Adam and Eve were intelligent and unselfish enough to eventually give up their perfect life in order to introduce the full measure of mortality. ... This demonstrates that Eve did not do something awful—instead, she did something very brave."  http://ldsblogs.com/...eve-left-garden

 

 

 

"Why did Eve and then Adam eat the fruit? Help class members understand that Adam and Eve acted with understanding and used freedom of choice. They realized that if they did not eat the fruit, they would not be able to have children and they would not be able to learn to make righteous decisions. They wisely chose to eat the fruit."  https://www.lds.org/...nd-eve?lang=eng

 

 

 

The scriptures say that Eve was deceived.  Do you disagree?

 

 

-Stephen

 

Yes and no.

I do not know how much Eve knew when she entered the garden.  But I do know that her action was the plan all along.

Why did Lucifer put God's plan into motion?  Perhaps he also suffers from a lack of knowledge or a veil.

It is also important to remember that while the events of the fall may be literal, their representation is probably allegorical or symbolic.

Eve wasn't actually made of Adam's rib.  Lucifer wasn't actually a lizard.  And fruit may not have actually been fruit.

 

But either way, the fall was always the plan set forth in the councils of Heaven and Mother Eve put it into motion.  I have zero doubt about that.

[Alan]

I do not understand why Adam and Eve would have been unable to have children in the Garden.

I know that's what we are taught but I see no reason for it.

[Calm]

I do not understand why Adam and Eve would have been unable to have children in the Garden.

I know that's what we are taught but I see no reason for it.

Maybe their hormone levels were too low or Eve's never changed so that she was essentially infertile (ovulation occurs because hormone levels alter) and it wan't until they became mortal that the body functions varied enough to allow for fertility. Edited November 3, 2015 by Calm

[Maedros]

You appear to suggest the devil was behind the LDS practices of polygamy and the priesthood ban, Maedros.  And that God used bad to achieve good.  I'm not sure many LDS would agree.  Did you really intend to draw a connection between these practices and Satan?

 

--Erik

What I'm saying is that Satan provides opposition in everything as he did toward the practice of polygamy and as he did toward the priesthood ban but despite his opposition good still comes out of it. Where mormons were known for being polygamous we are now known for upholding family values; where we were known for racism toward blacks, we are increasing our numbers among Africans; where we were heavily opposed because of Prop 8 we are now respected among the LGBT community for our support of equality; so every opposition that Satan can concoct is countered by the contingency planning of the Most High, whose mind Satan knoweth not. 

[Five Solas]

What I'm saying is that Satan provides opposition in everything as he did toward the practice of polygamy and as he did toward the priesthood ban but despite his opposition good still comes out of it. Where mormons were known for being polygamous we are now known for upholding family values; where we were known for racism toward blacks, we are increasing our numbers among Africans; where we were heavily opposed because of Prop 8 we are now respected among the LGBT community for our support of equality; so every opposition that Satan can concoct is countered by the contingency planning of the Most High, whose mind Satan knoweth not. 

Satan sure seems to win a lot of battles he picks to fight--at least in your examples.  Some might go so far as to say Satan held the moral high ground on a couple of these.  Meanwhile the fruit of god's contingent planning--well, it seems a bit modest & maybe even overstated.  But I shan't risk derailing this fine thread any further.

 

Appreciate the reply, Maedros

 

--Erik

[stephenpurdy]

I do not understand why Adam and Eve would have been unable to have children in the Garden.

I know that's what we are taught but I see no reason for it.

 

 

That is not what we are taught. 

 

 

Adam and eve COULD have had children.

 

But they WOULD not have had children. 

 

There is a difference.

 

 

 

To be fair, the OLD gospel principles book had an error, which said that they "were not able to have children".   (Go and check it for yourself if you have the old and new one.) They realized this mistake and in the new version, they fixed it to correctly reflect what scripture teaches, and they quote this verse:

 

"And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence,..." 

 

(emphasis mine)

 

 

They were able to have children ... in terms of being physically capable, however, I believe that they had a child-like mentality ("innocence") in terms of sexuality, with no knowledge of good, and therefore "would have had no children" in the state they were in. 

 

 

-Stephen

 

 

 

P.S. I go over a few more points on that in the videos I linked to a few posts back.

Edited November 6, 2015 by stephenpurdy