Ethics Of War And Peace In The Book Of Mormon

TheSkepticChristian · May 5, 2015

I don't think one can get a full handle on how the Lord and his Church views war by limiting oneself to the BoM. One has to take all scripture and doctrine ont he subject into account. For example, the doctrine on D&C 98 is clearly warlike:

Here is what the The Guide to the Scriptures says

The Lord approves of war only as a last means for his Saints to defend their families, property, rights, privileges, and freedoms (Alma 43:9, 45–47).
Moroni sought to defend his people, his rights, his country, and his religion:Alma 48:10–17;
Joseph Smith received a revelation and prophecy on war:D&C 87;
Renounce war and proclaim peace:D&C 98:16, 34–46;
We believe that men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government:D&C 134:11;

and what does the word "defend" in a war context mean? It means to Resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger:

So defending yourself, family, and friends is justified in LDS doctrine. Wars caused by fear, poor evidence, and unproven predictions are not justified in LDS doctrine. Attacking a country that is not an imminent threat is not justified in LDS doctrine. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord's people went to war only when there was an imminent threat.

and there is no need to panic, God will bless the USA with new technology to use during a worst-case scenario

Navy Unveils New Futuristic Weapon

http://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/navy-unveils-new-futuristic-weapon/3453539403001/

GhostSwimmer

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=84845

.

Edited May 5, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

Sevenbak · May 5, 2015

I'm sorry if I'm a downer here but I despise war in all fashion especially in the BoM.

As dark as it is, we need it, or it wouldn't be there. The fact that so much of the BoM deals with war should be a heads up for us.

President Hinckley put it this way:

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

The Nehor · May 5, 2015

I'm sorry if I'm a downer here but I despise war in all fashion especially in the BoM.

Congratulations, you learned the correct lesson.

The Nehor · May 5, 2015

Sethpayne:
When the Nephites waged wars as defense the Lord blessed them with success. When they waged wars of aggression they were defeated.

Did not realize this was old thread and I said this already.

Edited May 5, 2015 by The Nehor

TheSkepticChristian · May 5, 2015

As dark as it is, we need it, or it wouldn't be there. The fact that so much of the BoM deals with war should be a heads up for us.

Book of Mormon also describes periods of apostasy, it doesn't mean we should welcome it.

Sevenbak · May 5, 2015

Book of Mormon also describes periods of apostasy, it doesn't mean we should welcome it.

I think you missed the point. It's not that we should welcome war, it's that we should be warned about it, and why it is cyclical and how to avoid it, learn from it, etc. It's why around a third of the BoM deals with it.

Nephi gave a commandment to his seed that nothing should occupy the plates save those things that are of worth unto us.

If it's there, we better believe it's there for our benefit!

PeterPear · May 6, 2015

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace.

But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty.

The Nehor · May 6, 2015

We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace.

But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization, just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of liberty.

Moroni rallied the people and also called them to repent. Moroni had no illusions about the Nephites being the righteous "good guys" in this war. Fortunately the war stirred up enough people to repentance that the Nephites were spared after a long and grueling war.

bdouglas · May 6, 2015

Like Christians who read the Bible, LDS read the BOM and see in it a justification for their attitudes to war and politics. It was interesting to me, in the run-up to the Iraq War, to see how many LDS saw justification for it in the BOM.

For my part, these are three lessons I have learned from the reading the BOM:

1 - The Nephites only had to fight wars, even if they were defensive wars, when they'd been wicked. This is recurring lesson, one we see over and over, in the text.

2 - Offensive wars, wars of aggression, are immoral.

3 - It is not our place to punish the wicked. "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord, and I will repay." And, "By the wicked are the wicked punished."

This is some of what I have learned about war from reading the BOM.

P.S. - I might add a 4th lesson, and that is, wars in the BOM are not good guys vs. bad guys; rather, when there is a war, it is because the Nephites have been wicked. And so they find themselves having to fight a war.

This does not mean there were not righteous leaders, men like Moroni, Helaman, etc. It means that the war as a whole was not good guys vs. bad guys. In other words, there is no such thing as a "good war". Wars are always evil.

Edited May 6, 2015 by bdouglas

Sevenbak · May 6, 2015

Like Christians who read the Bible, LDS read the BOM and see in it a justification for their attitudes to war and politics. It was interesting to me, in the run-up to the Iraq War, to see how many LDS saw justification for it in the BOM.

You mean like this guy? Yeah pretty shameful! /sarc

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/war-and-peace?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/10/the-times-in-which-we-live?lang=eng

Edited May 6, 2015 by Sevenbak

strappinglad · May 6, 2015

Yup, those millions of Jews and Poles and Russians were at the top of God's naughty list. So were those nasty Armenians, and Cambodians. Let's not forget the tribes of Uganda and their wicked ways.

It is the wicked who are striving for wealth, land , and power who start wars. It is the innocent who pay a great price. The image which comes to mind is the little naked Vietnamese girl running away from the napalm .Maybe the Anti-Nephi-Lehis had the correct approach.

Edited May 6, 2015 by strappinglad

TheSkepticChristian · May 6, 2015

It is clear that the scriptures tell us to look for peace

Edited May 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

strappinglad · May 6, 2015

One hundred years ago a nation could establish a defensive perimeter on its borders and await any invaders until they actually crossed into the home territory before defending the land. Today the borders of any nation are porous and, for all intents and purposes, virtual. If the NSA detects a plot by a group in Paris to place a bomb on a train in London ,do they have any obligation to notify British authorities? Would London be justified in a pre-emptive strike in Paris ? The concept of a strictly defensive war is now pretty ephemeral . When a call from a cell phone in Syria can set off an explosion in Tel Aviv , the issue is where is the line between a defensive war and an offensive one?

TheSkepticChristian · May 6, 2015

If the NSA detects a plot by a group in Paris to place a bomb on a train in London ,do they have any obligation to notify British authorities?

A group is not a country, we have police and security for that. That has nothing to do with invading another country overseas.

Bytheway, the scriptures were written for our day.

Edited May 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

carbon dioxide · May 6, 2015

Sethpayne:
When the Nephites waged wars as defense the Lord blessed them with success. When they waged wars of aggression they were defeated.

This pretty much has been the case with American wars at least since WW2. Every military action we have done has been not out of defense of the US against an attack but to defend some sort of global or "national security" interest. The Korean war did not end well and we still are in that country. Vietnam wasted thousands of lives and what negative consequence did American get from losing that war? Nothing. American went on to prosper and Vietnam was left behind. Iraq, Libya, and other military actions the US has done has only made matters worse. George Washington had it right. Avoid foreign entanglements and alliances like NATO and the UN. We have not and we are not blessed but have been cursed with more debt and more lives wasted for causes that really did not need to be fought by American citizens.

I guess it is part of the prophecy that Joseph Smith is alleged to have said as written by Mosiah Hancock "The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations..." What nation in the last hundred years has engaged in more military action around the world than the USA?

Edited May 6, 2015 by carbon dioxide

morgan.deane · May 6, 2015

Hey everybody, for those of you that don't me, I write a great deal about military history in the BoM and as a result I research and write about these topics a great deal. I also study military history for a living. I wrote a post not too long about about comparing the fall of Ramadi in Iraq with the fall of Nephihah in Alma 59. You can find it here: http://www.wheatandtares.org/17186/looking-at-iraq-via-the-book-of-mormon/

The particular argument I made there isn't terribly important for the discussion here, though I think it shows the ability of the text to comment on modern events; but it was during that thread it dawned on me that almost everybody I meet reads the war chapters and lessons from the text a different way. I'm not sure if anybody has ever had their understanding corrected by the text. For example, my second book offers a reassessment of both heroes and villains in the text because I think it should be read more critically. Most people look at the war chapters and everything Moroni did, but I've seen very few people wonder what happened after that as a result. If the armies wore heavier armor or built more fortresses that would cost more money, but where did the money come from and might the people being taxes resent it and support an insurgency? You can read more about that here: http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2015/02/rethinking-moroni-and-great-war.html So as I've been researching for the book I realize how we can read the text a different way that drastically alters the moral message of the text, and its only possible to do that with a great deal of study, close reading, and keen analysis.

Yet very few do that. For example, I remember one person referring to our need for a Captain Moroni and not the wicked Obama that we have today. Well, when you consider Moroni's threat of treason, holding prisoners without trial, threatening genocide, and other items of questionable righteousness, not to mention the many strategems that he employed that don't easily translate with modern technology, I think its much deeper than that.

My question then for those arguing about principles or lessons that need to be learned from the text is, have any of you ever had your views on warfare drastically changed by the text? If so, would you mind explaining why and when that happened to you. For example, did you change political affiliations or leave the military at the same time? Thanks for letting me discuss a subject close to my heart.

Edited May 6, 2015 by morgan.deane

TheSkepticChristian · May 6, 2015

You mean like this guy?
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/war-and-peace?lang=eng

The prophet said, "It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression"

Yes we should fight for family and liberty when there is an imminent threat, that is called defense, not for possible missile attacks in the distant future that we cannot prove will happen.

As for tyranny, there are many nations under tyranny in the world, do you think we should invade all of them? What about the civilian casualties? In the Iraq War there were about 112,000-123,000 civilian noncombatants killed.

I think we should read the scriptures more carefully, wars are only justified when there is an imminent threat, Christians try to avoid war and seek for peace.

Instead of unjustified wars, I want more engineering and physics. .

Navy Unveils New Futuristic Weapon

http://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/navy-unveils-new-futuristic-weapon/3453539403001/

GhostSwimmer

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=84845

Edited May 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

ERayR · May 6, 2015

A group is not a country, we have police and security for that. That has nothing to do with invading another country overseas.

Bytheway, the scriptures were written for our day.

O but a group can be and often are agents of a country. See what is happening in the middle east. You know like Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya and the list is far from exclusive.

ERayR · May 6, 2015

The prophet said, "It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression"

Yes we should fight for family and liberty when there is an imminent threat, that is called defense, not for possible missile attacks in the distant future that we cannot prove will happen.

As for tyranny, there are many nations under tyranny in the world, do you think we should invade all of them? What about the civilian casualties? In the Iraq War there were about 112,000-123,000 civilian noncombatants killed.

I think we should read the scriptures more carefully, wars are only justified when it is for defense, Christians try to avoid war and seek for peace.

Instead of unjustified wars, I want more engineering and physics. .

Navy Unveils New Futuristic Weapon
http://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/navy-unveils-new-futuristic-weapon/3453539403001/

GhostSwimmer
http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=84845

Sometimes defense includes offense. Do you sit still for 9/11 attacks, one after another? What is defense?

TheSkepticChristian · May 6, 2015

Sometimes defense includes offense. Do you sit still for 9/11 attacks, one after another? What is defense?

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

I agree that defense includes offense, but we should only go to war when there is an imminent threat according to the LDS scriptures.

Do you agree with the scriptures?

See what is happening in the middle east.

The Sky is Falling

I agree bad stuff is happening, but do you want to invade all of it?

Edited May 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

thesometimesaint · May 6, 2015

When Germany declared war on us, and Japan bombed us. We invaded Mexico.

bdouglas · May 7, 2015

My question then for those arguing about principles or lessons that need to be learned from the text is, have any of you ever had your views on warfare drastically changed by the text? If so, would you mind explaining why and when that happened to you. For example, did you change political affiliations or leave the military at the same time? Thanks for letting me discuss a subject close to my heart.

Reading the BOM completely altered the way I think about war. But I must add that it was not just reading the BOM, it was also reading Hugh Nibley's essays on what the BOM says about war. What I think today about war and the politics of war is very different than what I thought when I was in my early 20s and recently returned from my mission.

carbon dioxide · May 7, 2015

Sometimes defense includes offense. Do you sit still for 9/11 attacks, one after another? What is defense?

Of course if the US did not have bases in Saudi Arabia and was not meddling in Middle East affairs, 911 most likely would not have occurred. You don't see terrorists from that side of the world blowing up stuff in Peru, Brazil, and Panama. US foreign policy makes America a target.

strappinglad · May 7, 2015

For those who think that terrorists are just unhappy with Americans, here is an outline of the escalating attacks around the world by extremists. We could note who gets the majority of the damage but that is not relevant, correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

The Nehor · May 7, 2015

For those who think that terrorists are just unhappy with Americans, here is an outline of the escalating attacks around the world by extremists. We could note who gets the majority of the damage but that is not relevant, correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

And I do not see major curtailment after our military operations overseas. Almost as if they are not doing any good.

I have thread banned several posters instead of closing the thread. Stick to the OP instead of political commentary.

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