Ethics Of War And Peace In The Book Of Mormon

[Sevenbak]

The prophet said, "It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression"

 

Yes we should fight for family and liberty when there is an imminent threat, that is called defense, not for possible missile attacks in the distant future that we cannot prove will happen.

 

As for tyranny, there are many nations under tyranny in the world, do you think we should invade all of them? What about the civilian casualties? In the Iraq War there were about 112,000-123,000 civilian noncombatants killed. 

 

I think we should read the scriptures more carefully, wars are only justified when there is an imminent threat, Christians try to avoid war and seek for peace. 

 

Instead of unjustified wars, I want more engineering and physics. . 

 

Navy Unveils New Futuristic Weapon

http://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/navy-unveils-new-futuristic-weapon/3453539403001/

 

GhostSwimmer

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=84845

 

Yeah, but you're crossing into the political arena, which I know it's hard to not do in this thread.  It's hard for me to respond as well in a neutral way, but I'll try.  In both of President Hinckley's Conference talks on war, in 2001 and 2003, he cited secret combinations as being the heart of the problem, and that what we as a country were doing could be supported, despite the cause for peace.  

 

I know this is a controversial subject, but I'm going to inject one more, just for some food for thought.  

 

Yes wars should be defensive, yes the BoM teaches that we shouldn't invade other lands.

 

That said, what is yall's take on Moroni's letter to Ammoron in Alma 54, telling him if he didn't stop, he'd come against him into his own land?

 

 12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

[TheSkepticChristian]

That said, what is yall's take on Moroni's letter to Ammoron in Alma 54, telling him if he didn't stop, he'd come against him into his own land?

 

 12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

 

If he didn't stop what? Defense can include offense in war, but it is still defense, not fear of unfounded predictions of the future. 

 

1. Lamanite army attacked first 

2. Lamanite army was in Nephite territory 

3. Lamanites had Nephite prisoners (including women and children) 

4. and the Lamanites were an imminent threat  

Edited May 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

Pope Francis deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, he is a true hero

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/12/pope-francis-weapons-war_n_7266688.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

 

[PeterPear]

Moroni rallied the people and also called them to repent. Moroni had no illusions about the Nephites being the righteous "good guys" in this war. Fortunately the war stirred up enough people to repentance that the Nephites were spared after a long and grueling war.

I was quoting Pres. Hinckley who said this in General Conference right after 9/11.

[morgan.deane]

Reading the BOM completely altered the way I think about war. But I must add that it was not just reading the BOM, it was also reading Hugh Nibley's essays on what the BOM says about war. What I think today about war and the politics of war is very different than what I thought when I was in my early 20s and recently returned from my mission.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.  I know its a bit personal, do you mean tell me where you started and what you changed to, and perhaps any particular scriptures that did it for you? I'm just curious so its not vital.  Though it might prompt further research some day in the future along the lines of what I discussed before, about the relatively few people that change their opinions based on the text compared to finding support for preconceived notions. 

 

Thanks for responding.  Compared to the politically tinged rants seen on the board so far, I know my query can seem a bit dull but its still appreciated!! 

[sethpayne]

Yeah, but you're crossing into the political arena, which I know it's hard to not do in this thread.  It's hard for me to respond as well in a neutral way, but I'll try.  In both of President Hinckley's Conference talks on war, in 2001 and 2003, he cited secret combinations as being the heart of the problem, and that what we as a country were doing could be supported, despite the cause for peace.  

 

I know this is a controversial subject, but I'm going to inject one more, just for some food for thought.  

 

Yes wars should be defensive, yes the BoM teaches that we shouldn't invade other lands.

 

That said, what is yall's take on Moroni's letter to Ammoron in Alma 54, telling him if he didn't stop, he'd come against him into his own land?

 

 12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

 

 

Moroni was a military leader, not a religious one.  That's not to say he may not have a good point here or that his threat was not justified.  Only that while being portrayed as a man to be emulated, he is not presented as a spiritual teacher or authority like Alma, Nephi, etc...

 

So I'd had to mistake military strategy for doctrine and I don't see the BoM saying that all military strategies described were for us to build our own battle plans.  Rather, its purpose seems to be outlined on the BoM title page.

Edited May 13, 2015 by sethpayne

[TheSkepticChristian]

Moroni was a military leader, not a religious one.  That's not to say he may not have a good point here or that his threat was not justified.  Only that while being portrayed as a man to be emulated, he is not presented as a spiritual teacher or authority like Alma, Nephi, etc...

 

So I'd had to mistake military strategy for doctrine and I don't see the BoM saying that all military strategies described were for us to build our own battle plans.  Rather, its purpose seems to be outlined on the BoM title page.

 

 

"The Book of Mormon gives insights into when war is justified and when it is not. “The Nephites . . . were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church . . . For the Lord had said unto them . . . ye shall not suffer yourself to be slain by the hands of your enemies” (Alma 43:45-46). Also, the Book of Mormon teaches that arming for defense is acceptable, but it is against preemptive strikes: “The Lord forbid; for if we should go against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; . . . we will wait till they come against us” (3 Ne. 3:21)"

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/the-truth-about-the-god-makers/xiii

 

It is clear that war is only justified when the enemy is an imminent threat. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[sethpayne]

 

 

It is clear that war is only justified when the enemy is an imminent threat. 

 

I tend to agree with you which is why I pointed out that Moroni's war strategies should not be treated as doctrine.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Moroni was a military leader, not a religious one.  That's not to say he may not have a good point here or that his threat was not justified.  Only that while being portrayed as a man to be emulated, he is not presented as a spiritual teacher or authority like Alma, Nephi, etc...

 

So I'd had to mistake military strategy for doctrine and I don't see the BoM saying that all military strategies described were for us to build our own battle plans.  Rather, its purpose seems to be outlined on the BoM title page.

 

Interesting...., so what do you think of this then?

"...and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

 18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God."

[TheSkepticChristian]

 

Interesting...., so what do you think of this then?

 

It is still clear that the Book of Mormon teaches that war is only justified when the enemy is an imminent threat. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It is still clear that the Book of Mormon teaches that war is only justified when the enemy is an imminent threat. 

I agree. That wasn't what I was addressing.

[TheSkepticChristian]

That said, what is yall's take on Moroni's letter to Ammoron in Alma 54, telling him if he didn't stop, he'd come against him into his own land?

 

The Lamanite army attacked first, they were in Nephite territory, and the Lamanites were an imminent threat. 

 

 

"The Book of Mormon gives insights into when war is justified and when it is not. “The Nephites . . . were not fighting for monarchy nor power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church . . . For the Lord had said unto them . . . ye shall not suffer yourself to be slain by the hands of your enemies” (Alma 43:45-46). Also, the Book of Mormon teaches that arming for defense is acceptable, but it is against preemptive strikes: “The Lord forbid; for if we should go against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; . . . we will wait till they come against us” (3 Ne. 3:21)"

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/the-truth-about-the-god-makers/xiii

[sethpayne]

 

Interesting...., so what do you think of this then?

"...and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

 18 Behold, he was a man like unto Ammon, the son of Mosiah, yea, and even the other sons of Mosiah, yea, and also Alma and his sons, for they were all men of God."

 

As I said, he is portrayed as a man to be emulated in terms of personal faith.  But he wasn't a prophet and therefore I don't think we can justifiably interpret war strategy as doctrine.

Edited May 15, 2015 by sethpayne

[BookofMormonLuvr]

As I said, he is portrayed as a man to be emulated in terms of personal faith.  But he wasn't a prophet and therefore I don't think we can justifiably interpret war strategy as doctrine.

I disagree. I believe that proper understanding of when and how to engage in war is precisely why the war chapters are there with a man such as Moroni being the pre-imminent figure.

[sethpayne]

I disagree. I believe that proper understanding of when and how to engage in war is precisely why the war chapters are there with a man such as Moroni being the pre-imminent figure.

 

But the text of the BoM simply doesn't' support that view.  The war chapters are insightful in terms of showing good leaders doing their best to wage moral war.  I think what we see from men like Moroni is an example of how to apply Christian values of peace even when forced into conflict.  But I don't think the specifics are all that important.  Just because a given strategy worked in one time and place doesn't mean it is appropriate for another.  But that doesn't impact the underlying moral principle involved.

Edited May 18, 2015 by sethpayne

[BookofMormonLuvr]

But the text of the BoM simply doesn't' support that view.  The war chapters are insightful in terms of showing good leaders doing their best to wage moral war.  I think what we see from men like Moroni is an example of how to apply Christian values of peace even when forced into conflict.  But I don't think the specifics are all that important.  Just because a given strategy worked in one time and place doesn't mean it is appropriate for another.  But that doesn't impact the underlying moral principle involved.

In your opinion it doesn't, I don't agree. So we are at an impasse.

[sethpayne]

In your opinion it doesn't, I don't agree. So we are at an impasse.

 

I'm genuinely curious where you see the text saying we should treat military strategy as doctrine.  Heaven knows I've been wrong 1000000000x before and I could certainly be in this instance.    I'm very interested in your exegesis here.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm genuinely curious where you see the text saying we should treat military strategy as doctrine.  Heaven knows I've been wrong 1000000000x before and I could certainly be in this instance.    I'm very interested in your exegesis here.

I already explained that I believe the manner in which Moroni engaged in war was included in the text to help us understand the proper perimeters for engaging  in warfare. I feel no reason to convince you of my position. I also believe that one of the reason for the account of the Ammonites is to let us know that being a conscientious objector is an acceptable position for a believer in the Restored Gospel.

Feel free to believe differently, I don't really care.

[sethpayne]

I already explained that I believe the manner in which Moroni engaged in war was included in the text to help us understand the proper perimeters for engaging  in warfare. I feel no reason to convince you of my position. I also believe that one of the reason for the account of the Ammonites is to let us know that being a conscientious objector is an acceptable position for a believer in the Restored Gospel.

Feel free to believe differently, I don't really care.

 

 

I thought we were having an interesting exchange of ideas.  Certainly not asking you to convince me.  But thought perhaps I could learn something from your viewpoint.

Edited May 18, 2015 by sethpayne

[rodheadlee]

I thought we were having an interesting exchange of ideas.  Certainly not asking you to convince me.  But thought perhaps I could learn something from your viewpoint.

The other day I was skimming the scriptures searching for a message form God. Where I opened the Book came to Hardness of Heart in the Topical Guide. I've since been trying to do a better job of learning from everyone.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I thought we were having an interesting exchange of ideas.  Certainly not asking you to convince me.  But thought perhaps I could learn something from your viewpoint.

My post came across harsher than it should have.

My point is that really there is no way to prove either position, as the LORD doesn't come out clearly and say, "You must conduct war according to the Book of Mormon." So really our views on the purpose of the war chapters and the person of Moroni are mere opinions- and there is no way to prove an opinion.

The "I don't care." was meant more as, "Even if I disagree, I respect you opinion and your right to have it." Too often LDS insist that the other person must see their side- almost an insatiable desire to be right. I don't care about that anymore. I just, generally, share my opinion without too much effort to make others see it my way.

Edited May 19, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[sethpayne]

My point is that really there is no way to prove either position, as the LORD doesn't come out clearly and say, "You must conduct war according to the Book of Mormon." So really our views on the purpose of the war chapters and the person of Moroni are mere opinions- and there is no way to prove an opinion.

 

 

Thanks, BOMLVR

 

I agree that all we have are opinions!  Like you, I think the war chapters can be very instructive for us as we look at modern problems and situations.  So I think it is a question of granularity.  At what level should we take the war chapters as instructive in principle or as prescriptive in execution?  I don't think there is a clear cut right or wrong answer.  

 

But overall, IMO the BOM teaches us that if we must go to war, it should be the absolute last resort.