Satan Not Neccesary

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think the sum total of the opposition we have towards God because of the natural man supplies sufficient opposition.  1000 1 kg weights are equivalent in weight to 1 1000 kg weight.

Then why did God, who is infinitely more intelligent and wise than the best of men, cast Lucifer and his followers down to earth to tempt, afflict and torment man? Is God lacking in intelligence and/or wisdom by exposing man to the machinations a being whose designs stand in diametric to all that he stands for if it wasn’t necessary? How can men inherit the fullness of God’s glory, and thereby become joint heirs with Christ in receiving the fullness of God’s blessings, without overcoming the devil, the author of all that is evil and spiritually destructive?

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. (Moroni 7)

and…

39 And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.

40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. (Alma 5)

In light of the above verses, it seems to me that saying the devil is unnecessary is suspiciously close to the following:

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. (2 Nephi 2)

 

Edited July 30 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Except I am not saying there is no devil, I am saying we all have parts of us that are devilish.

I am for personal accountability of the evil we do, not blaming evil on someone else.

I don’t believe scriptures are meant to be history books, but rather teach us about ourselves and God.

Edited July 30 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 7/30/2026 at 1:39 PM, teddyaware said:

It’s amazing how otherwise knowledgeable members of the church can be so easily led astray! In 2 Nephi 2, the Prophet Lehi makes it abundantly clear that there must needs be opposition in all things in order for there to be a rational predication for the existence of all things. This can only mean that in order for this existence to continue there must be a being capable of thought and action who stands in diametric opposition to God because God is in fact a ‘thing’ — in this case the most important and preeminent of all things. Therefore since God is an intelligent being of perfect righteousness, the law of opposition in all things requires that there must be a living, thinking agent of absolute unrighteousness who stands in diametric opposition to the righteousness God. If this were not the case, Lehi informs us that all things that presently exist would vanish away into nothingness… And take note that in the following verse Lehi testifies that the presence of the devil on earth is EXPEDIENT (necessary) in the Father’s plan of salvation.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Nephi 2:27)

It therefore follows that Satan is co-equal with God or there is not opposition in all things. Also that God must be tempted by devils as well or He would face no opposition.

Lehi is reasoning here but it isn’t very sound reasoning.

[teddyaware]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It therefore follows that Satan is co-equal with God or there is not opposition in all things. Also that God must be tempted by devils as well or He would face no opposition.

Lehi is reasoning here but it isn’t very sound reasoning.

It’s your reasoning that’s utterly ridiculous. The beings that inhabit outer darkness may be coeval with God, but they stand in absolute diametric opposition to the infinite and eternal light, life, intelligence, wisdom and love of God. It appears your obsession with DEI may have thrown your power to reason out of kilter. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It appears your obsession with DEI may have thrown your power to reason out of kilter. 

He is just following your logic. 

[Calm]

On 7/30/2026 at 4:02 PM, teddyaware said:

without overcoming the devil, the author of all that is evil and spiritually destructive?

If the author of all evil is the natural man (not only the physical, but spiritual and emotional) that is part of our nature, the part we are taught we must overcome (Mosiah 3:19 iirc), seems to work fine in my view.  
 

Edited Sunday at 02:01 AM by Calm

[Calm]

Btw, I am not trying to convince anyone Satan doesn’t exist, do whatever works to keep you making good choices, but I know of those who do not view the existence of Satan as reasonable (who tempted Lucifer to become evil if he is the author of all that is evil?) .  I find it more intelligent, rather than dump the idea of temptation, to view ourselves to being prone to fill the role of Satan ourselves, in essence we become Satan tempting ourselves and tempting others to increase our sense of power and glory, just as Lucifer did when he gave into his own evil desires becoming.  I think it’s detrimental to dismiss the belief that we aren’t influenced by actual evil.   I also believe there were those who rebelled against God in the preexistence.  Certainly could have had a leader who was a son of the morning.   I lean against the idea that those beings devote their entire existence to trying to tempt others, that we are surrounded by hordes of these trying to possess us, etc.  Open to the possibility it’s more than an allegory for our mixed up, screwed up internal state, but don’t see it as required to explain reality.  And it doesn’t come across as the act of a loving and reasonable God to me even if “opposition” is necessary for growth.

Evil appeals to the natural man in many ways, covetous feelings are probably the biggest source of evil in the world imo and that comes from desiring what others have, including power, and believing we have a right to ‘have it all’ no matter what harm it brings to others (the ultimate arrogance imo).  Some rather than working with each other so all can achieve ‘having it all’ in oneness with God, those who choose to listen to the temptations work only for themselves ultimately, even if they hitch themselves to others temporarily as short cuts to power or wealth. 
 

I think the world would be a much better place if we all got in the habit of asking ourselves first “am I harming anyone by pursuing this desire?”.

PS:  interestingly enough, as soon as I posted this post, the only two songs out of 20 referring to the devil came up (shuffled, but it’s not that long of a playlist as it’s only songs with a strong, consistent drum beat for distracting me from RLS sensations, so not saying it’s spooky odd, just fun odd).  Both portray a devil to taken very seriously, even if internal.  And isn’t Satan portrayed as whispering in our ear?  What dialogue is more persuasive than our own destructive self talk?

The first was Dance with the Devil by Breaking Benjamin, an allegory for the “destructive cycle of addiction”.

It has some perfect lyrics, imo.

”I believe in you
I can show you that
I can see right through
All your empty lies
I won't stay long
In this world so wrong…

Feeling your cold dead eyes
Stealing the life of mine.”

Second was Awaken from League of Legends.

According to AI:

“It shows that life is fragile, forcing people to make hard choices when fate hangs in the balance”. (Lifeless description, but works)

“The night beckons while you dream
A life never lives in peace
As you stand upon the edge
Woven by a single thread
And fate may fall down upon you
While the devil is knocking
Right at your door

So all you restless
Each night you hear the drums of war
Awaken, awaken
The voice begins to call you while you hunger
A taste of destiny you're searching for
Awaken, awaken
The fight is at your door, take up the cause.”

I find these portrayals as more intimidating, more arresting than the temple portrayals where honestly Satan came across as more self dramatizing blowhard to me. (Props to the actors who did their best with the context, they can’t do complicated subtle portrayals under such circumstances).  I know how hard it is to ignore my self doubts and rationalizations while I find it pretty easy to dismiss others’ criticisms and flattery for the most part (except criticism from loved ones, but I never considered Satan in that category as he hasn’t earned it).

Edited Sunday at 05:37 AM by Calm

[Calm]

Would love to hear from those who believe in Satan and his devils tempting us how they see this happening, how they tell when it happens to them.  I am serious, not mocking.  I think it’s a possible explanation and it was the one I grew up with at church (one topic of our faith that didn’t get discussion at home) and definitely expected and visualized, but it just doesn’t feel orderly, ‘right’ in the way God’s actions in my life feel very solid, fitting….puzzle pieces that actually fit.

I have sensed the presence of evil in my life once and it scared me big time***, but I never felt a sense of someone trying to tempt me to do wrong outside of those I could see and touch or thoughts that seemed alien to me while I have felt pretty constantly a caring presence I identify as God that makes me feel very secure.

***My guess is I was somehow aware of a peeping tom who was later caught in the neighborhood (not that night, several weeks or months later).  The bushes by one of the windows of the basement I was staying in were flattened, but not broken as if an adult size body laid on them looking through the window…but I admit they might have grown that way for some odd reason.  

Edited Sunday at 07:59 PM by Calm

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It appears your obsession with DEI may have thrown your power to reason out of kilter. 

DEI? What? The propaganda you are consuming is rotting your brain.

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/30/2026 at 2:50 PM, Calm said:

I think the sum total of the opposition we have towards God because of the natural man supplies sufficient opposition.  1000 1 kg weights are equivalent in weight to 1 1000 kg weight.

Oh, yeah?!  Tell me, Ms. Smartypants, what weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of metal!      

[Sorry!  Couldn't resist!    ]  Carry on!

 

[manol]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

... Satan and his devils tempting us...  I think it’s a possible explanation...

Agreed.  I'm agnostic about the literal existence of Satan, but acknowledge that that's one possible explanation. 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have felt pretty constantly a caring presence I identify as God that makes me feel very secure.

Very interesting!

That feeling of "a caring presence that I identify as God" does not, and never has, come naturally to me, at least not in this life.  It is not (yet!) my default mode, though I hope someday it will be. 

Awareness of what could be called a "caring presence" is a relatively new experience for me.  It is something I have to deliberately work at via intention and attention by consciously choosing what occupies my mind.  I have to deliberately tune (and re-tune) my "radio" to that higher "station", but it IS becoming easier for me to do so, and to do so when circumstances make it difficult.  For me, that's an "opposition" that is (apparently) helping me to develop in an area where I (apparently) need to do so. 

And it is very encouraging to me to hear that the caring presence you identify as God is pretty much constantly present for you.  Seriously, hearing that makes me very happy for you.  And it shines through; your presence here is very much "caring".  Going back to the radio analogy:  We not only receive but also broadcast on whatever "station" we are tuned-in to. 

 

Edited Sunday at 06:28 PM by manol

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, yeah?!  Tell me, Ms. Smartypants, what weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of metal!      

[Sorry!  Couldn't resist!    ]  Carry on!

 

I actually think that’s a perfect response.  Very in context.  Very insightful I would even say when you think about it.   

Edited Sunday at 08:01 PM by Calm