JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 30 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I wouldn't get a recommend if I said 'no' to the question asking if I believed JS restored the original church. Simple as that. Nor should you. If you doubt the source (vine), why have access to the blessings (fruit)? In other words, if you don't accept Joseph Smith and the restoration (which to be clear was more about priesthood and ordinances than doctrine) then why should you be permitted to receive ordinances you reject the authority behind? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 22 minutes ago, CV75 said: OK so you wouldn't get a temple recommend if you say you don't believe Joseph Smith restored the Church and the Gospel. What's the problem? Just that I wouldn't be able to go to the CK or live with God, that's a big problem. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Just now, Tacenda said: Just that I wouldn't be able to go to the CK or live with God, that's a big problem. The question is whether it is the lack of belief that causes that or the lack of a temple recommend. Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Just that I wouldn't be able to go to the CK or live with God, that's a big problem. Are you afraid of not going to the Celestial Kingdom because you don't believe that Joseph Smith restored the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: Are you afraid of not going to the Celestial Kingdom because you don't believe that Joseph Smith restored the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I rather like the general belief, that there aren't separations or different heavens. Maybe there are levels in one heaven, but believe that God is more spirit and can dwell within me, or be in my midst. I don't really believe that without a temple recommend that I won't live with Him in a certain kingdom. If I believe in parts of the Bible, I will, despite JS or any other leader telling me otherwise. ETA: But my Mormonism doesn't leave my soul very fast and it's nearly impossible to turn off the switch. Edited January 26, 2016 by Tacenda 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 24 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I rather like the general belief, that there aren't separations or different heavens. Maybe there are levels in one heaven, but believe that God is more spirit and can dwell within me, or be in my midst. I don't really believe that without a temple recommend that I won't live with Him in a certain kingdom. If I believe in parts of the Bible, I will, despite JS or any other leader telling me otherwise. ETA: But my Mormonism doesn't leave my soul very fast and it's nearly impossible to turn off the switch. If none of the non-beliefs you portrayed as problems are really problems, why is it you want to know if your church is false? Are you worried or fearful about it being true? Are you talking about overcoming an irrational dependence or brainwashing that it is true? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: If none of the non-beliefs you portrayed as problems are really problems, why is it you want to know if your church is false? Are you worried or fearful about it being true? Are you talking about overcoming an irrational dependence or brainwashing that it is true? Wow, couldn't have said it better, do you read minds CV75? Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Wow, couldn't have said it better, do you read minds CV75? So of the two possibilities I mentioned, are you a) worried or fearful about it being true or b) think you have an irrational dependence or brainwashing that it is true? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Just now, CV75 said: So of the two possibilities I mentioned, are you a) worried or fearful about it being true or b) think you have an irrational dependence or brainwashing that it is true? Can I say both? I deep down don't know if it's true. And God is one big jokestar, or really, really demands a lot of faith. Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Can I say both? I deep down don't know if it's true. And God is one big jokestar, or really, really demands a lot of faith. Which seems most in line with where you're at most often? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, CV75 said: Which seems most in line with where you're at most often? Let's just say I would push the button on if the church was true, but not if God exists. Does that completely not answer your question? I'm on the fence. I see wonderful members all around me, but when I see what happens outside of that realm, I'm so disappointed in the group think. And it not being Christ like IMO. Link to comment
Thinking Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 2 hours ago, JAHS said: But in my opinion there simply is no answer to the question. By saying yes it means that I am agreeing with the person asking the question that if he can offer sufficient evidence that it is not true that I would accept that evidence and do something about it. But I already know he can't do that so there is no answer to the question. I disagree. You can still reject the evidence that is presented and still claim to believe/know your church is true. In my opinion you can't really believe/know unless you do look at all the evidence (physical and spiritual). 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 58 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Let's just say I would push the button on if the church was true, but not if God exists. Does that completely not answer your question? I'm on the fence. I see wonderful members all around me, but when I see what happens outside of that realm, I'm so disappointed in the group think. And it not being Christ like IMO. How is pushing a button to know if the Church is true more palatable than dealing with disappointment in her leaders, and how is that different from pushing a button to know if the Church is false? Link to comment
JAHS Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 47 minutes ago, Thinking said: I disagree. You can still reject the evidence that is presented and still claim to believe/know your church is true. In my opinion you can't really believe/know unless you do look at all the evidence (physical and spiritual). But the question itself does not mention evidence. The question asked is based on a supposed truth that the church is definitely not true. That in itself is not possible since it is mostly a matter of faith and not based solely on tangible evidence. As I said earlier the only way it could be put into question is if Joseph Smith himself were to confess he made it all up; which of course now is impossible. We are then left with the spiritual and faith-based belief in its truth as well as the good fruits that have come out of the restoration. Therefore there is no correct answer to the question. Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Let's just say I would push the button on if the church was true, but not if God exists. Does that completely not answer your question? I'm on the fence. I see wonderful members all around me, but when I see what happens outside of that realm, I'm so disappointed in the group think. And it not being Christ like IMO. A suggestion: Try your very best to think of the Church as all of the people in a hospital. A very big hospital, or actually a hospital organization that has individual hospital buildings spread out all over the world. Kinda like the Legacy or Good Samaritan or Providence hospital organizations, if you are familiar with those. Whatever hospital organization is familiar to you. And I mean all of the people in the hospital sysrem, the patients as well as the doctors and nurses and lab technicians and pharmacists, etc. Some very, very, very, very, very sick people, and some others who are not quite as sick but are still sick, with some having some things that others don't have but still everybody is still sick in some way. With even the doctors and nurses being some very, very, very, very, very sick people and some others who are sick but not as sick as the sickest of people. With nobody in the hospital system being totally well or without any problems at all. And everyone is still dying regardless of what the doctors and nurses are doing, at best just trying to make everyone they work on just a little more comfortable. Until each person dies. Individually. Dead. You do understand that the Church is the people in it, don't you? And that our Savior isn't a member? The Church is his spouse, but still everybody in his Church is still dying a mortal death. And we are not perfect, yet, either. We are all just a bunch of sick people, with some of us sicker than others. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: Let's just say I would push the button on if the church was true, but not if God exists. Does that completely not answer your question? I'm on the fence. I see wonderful members all around me, but when I see what happens outside of that realm, I'm so disappointed in the group think. And it not being Christ like IMO. I don't think the button will work and I don't mean just an actual button, but anything represented by a button. Unless one knows the button came from God and was specifically for this question no one would trust it. People who are firm in testimony wouldn't trust the button unless it said yes. People not firm would not trust it either way. People who were firm against wouldn't trust it unless it said no. It is so much easier, but I've found that the easy things rarely last. It is when you have to study diligently that what you have learned lasts. I know. No fun. In school most things came easily for me. My daughter really struggles. I really feel for her but I am so excited for her. I am just now learning how to learn. When things start breaking down for her later in life she will know how to struggle and learn. That struggle to know if the church is from God is incredibly difficult of some. But when you get to the point where you have the button there will be no wondering if you should push it because the struggle helped you already know the answer. Hang on to that belief in God that you have. Ask him to help you learn through the struggles. Consider the struggles a blessing and thank him for them. Have you read Wendy Watson Nelson's book on questions? I would really consider doing so. Don't just read through it. Work through it. It helps you word questions, mostly to the Lord, in a way that may better help you get your answers. 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: Edited January 27, 2016 by Rain 4 Link to comment
Thinking Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, JAHS said: But the question itself does not mention evidence. The question asked is based on a supposed truth that the church is definitely not true. You're the one who brought evidence into the discussion. 5 hours ago, JAHS said: By saying yes it means that I am agreeing with the person asking the question that if he can offer sufficient evidence that it is not true that I would accept that evidence and do something about it. I was just following your lead. Link to comment
JAHS Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 51 minutes ago, Thinking said: You're the one who brought evidence into the discussion. I was just following your lead. Yes but I only mentioned it to make the point that there would not be sufficient evidence. Now if the question were. "If I could show you evidence that the church is not true would you want to see it?" Then I would say "Sure go ahead and show me your evidence". Link to comment
Thinking Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 9 minutes ago, JAHS said: Yes but I only mentioned it to make the point that there would not be sufficient evidence. Now if the question were. "If I could show you evidence that the church is not true would you want to see it?" Then I would say "Sure go ahead and show me your evidence". That's fair. Link to comment
why me Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, Tacenda said: This would cover many churches/faiths. Not really. The lds church is quite different because of the book of mormon. Without the book of mormon, the lds church would be like many other churches. Most christians just need to choose the bible as either true or false. For mormons it is also the book of mormon that can cause doubt. It is also a book that is roundly attacked by critics and exmembers. However, what we see today is less stress on the book of mormon and more stress on policy issues, the character of Joseph Smith etc. Why? Because it is now very difficult to attack the book of mormon like it was attacked when I first came on the boards over ten years ago. However, I would say that all religious books can be attacked by atheists since no one has proven the existence of god and in christianity, no one has found any collaborative evidence to back up what the bible says of christ and his mission. We just have to believe the gospel writers. Edited January 27, 2016 by why me Link to comment
salgare Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Some have suggested the button is the Holy Ghost. What happened to that days of the button being administration of angels and even Christ? Are we not encourage to push that button? Is not the promise of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood the literal pushing of that button? Link to comment
sdc999 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Yes, your church is True ------- To You! My church is True ------ To Me! People need to find what brings them closer to God. I am not a big fan of Blinky (Joel Osteen) but maybe that's where those people are in their search for God. Just look on Facebook any day of the week when somebody wishes their Mother happy birthday. EVERYONE's mother is the 'best' mother in the world. Really? Have you looked your wife in the eye and said, 'you are the prettiest woman in the world.' Have you seen Jennifer Aniston? We are all in this together in violent agreement. Isn't God great? And yes, I believe the God you worship is the same God I worship. I like getting closer to God every day through prayer, scriptures and being a Christian in the verb sense. 1 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 4 hours ago, sdc999 said: Yes, your church is True ------- To You! My church is True ------ To Me! People need to find what brings them closer to God. I am not a big fan of Blinky (Joel Osteen) but maybe that's where those people are in their search for God. Just look on Facebook any day of the week when somebody wishes their Mother happy birthday. EVERYONE's mother is the 'best' mother in the world. Really? Have you looked your wife in the eye and said, 'you are the prettiest woman in the world.' Have you seen Jennifer Aniston? We are all in this together in violent agreement. Isn't God great? And yes, I believe the God you worship is the same God I worship. I like getting closer to God every day through prayer, scriptures and being a Christian in the verb sense. Such relativism works when considering "best for you". But it doesn't change the reality of what is actually best. Same for truth. It may be that being a Buddhist is the absolute best think for you in your life. Doesn't make reincarnation any more real or Christ any less the Son of God. Link to comment
rodheadlee Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 13 hours ago, salgare said: Some have suggested the button is the Holy Ghost. What happened to that days of the button being administration of angels and even Christ? Are we not encourage to push that button? Is not the promise of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood the literal pushing of that button? Sure but you have to already have faith. As an Aaronic Priesthood holder I hold a key to the ministering of angels. I have exercised that key for those under my stewardship. But their job is not to confirm Truth to you, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. They can bring you a message but it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that you know the Truth of their message. After all there are fallen angels, you can't just believe any angel. Link to comment
salgare Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Sure but you have to already have faith. As an Aaronic Priesthood holder I hold a key to the ministering of angels. I have exercised that key for those under my stewardship. But their job is not to confirm Truth to you, that is the job of the Holy Spirit. They can bring you a message but it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that you know the Truth of their message. After all there are fallen angels, you can't just believe any angel. Yea, I never really could understand the whole Holy Ghost story even at the height of my TBM'nes. I've never seen anything that describes this role beyond pretty much just stating what you have here. And then you have the whole, I'm sorry you are not a member so you get "The Spirit of Christ" to help you along. In my apostasy I have not seen any difference in the two. But take that latter button ... Christ and one's Calling and Election, Having Christ wash your feet. Are you saying we still have need of this Holy Ghost individual to make this thing sure? And even in the Temple, the pattern is very clear on the concept of "Return and Report" so one best know how to recognize those pesky devils! About my only OP here deals with this, suggesting it be applied to our current "messengers" Edited January 28, 2016 by salgare Link to comment
Recommended Posts