Ahab Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Gray said: That is the very definition of TMI, in a picture. Edited January 25, 2016 by Ahab ... and the wrong kind of information.
halconero Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) capturedvideo.MOV This is for you, Gray. Edited January 25, 2016 by halconero
Traela Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: I'd like to move the goalposts to spoken sentences, please and thank you. If the hearer has synesthesia, no problem.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Didn't we just do this thread? Yes but I hadn't been restored...
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I don't really care to know about anything that is false. Whatever is false is not what I'm after. Just show me the truth, or do your best to describe it or define it for me. Not what is false but what is true. And then I will see for myself. Some way. Somehow. Just don't waste my time trying to tell me about what is false because that will be self evident when I know or find out what the truth is. I see...edited because I misread your statement. Edited January 26, 2016 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: Why? Just because it would kill the person in question trying to do it?
The Nehor Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 25 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yes but I hadn't been restored... Yet another reason not to come back to it. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: Does it have to be black and white, true or not true. This is the crux. This is why some members cannot be neutral or middle wayers. Should the leaders come up with a way the member can look at it from a middle way lens? If the church was false were you want to know? There is no middle way, that is acceptable to Jesus Christ. Here is what he has to say about it in Revelation 3: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the afaithful and true witness, the bbeginning of the ccreation of God; 15 I know thy aworks, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art alukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will bspue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am arich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I acounsel thee to buy of me bgold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and achasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and aopen the door, I will bcome in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that aovercometh will I grant to bsit with me in my cthrone, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. You can be in transtition from belief to un-belief or you can be in transition from un-belief to belief . The latter would be acceptable to Christ. In answer to your question, only the Holy Spirit can manifest the truth of the Gospel and the fact that Jesus Christ runs the Church through His apostles to you. This is how I know the Church belongs to Him. I suggest you cultivate your relationship with God the Father through the Holy Spirit by reading the scriptures and prayer. He will let you know the Truth.
why me Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: Does it have to be black and white, true or not true. This is the crux. This is why some members cannot be neutral or middle wayers. Should the leaders come up with a way the member can look at it from a middle way lens? If the church was false were you want to know? The way the church is set up with the book of mormon as its foundational claim, a book that the lds church claims came from god, it would be difficult to have a middle way or a third way. Of course, some people may want a third way, but in the lds church it is very nearly impossible. It is black or white, true or false. Of course, people would want to know that it is false if it were proven to be false. But now, I think that it is very nearly impossible to prove the church false. Too much time has passed for that to happen. Much would have had to happen at the time of joseph smith, emma smith, the 11 witnesses, sidney rigdon etc. And of course during brigham's time. But now....too much has passed away for it to be proven false. Thus, the problem with former members, wayward members etc. They must rely on doubt and not fact. Questions such as: who wrote the book of mormon if not ancient prophets? Would it be possible for joseph to write the book? Where does he get the paper? The feathered pens, where does he put the rough drafts, could he keep silent about his 'project' during the time that he is witiing it? Did he have time to write it? And what was his goal if one believes he did write it? These are simple questions that middle way people need to ask. Edited January 26, 2016 by why me 1
Thinking Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 8 hours ago, JAHS said: Here's what I said then: "For an active latter-day saint there is no yes or no answer to this question because it is a loaded question. It assumes that one believes that it might be possible that it is not true. I assume that it is true, backed up by my experiences living the gospel and by confirmation from the Holy Ghost. If there is a God that wants us to live by certain precepts in order to return to Him, in my opinion, there is no other religion that better conforms to what is found in the scriptures or that could be better for making my life happy and purposeful." And This question reminds me of the one where you are asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife? You can't respond Yes or No to it. When it comes to religion it' all a matter of faith anyway. The only way we could know for sure it wasn't true is if Joseph Smith came back and confessed he made it all up; which is never going to happen, so I am going to stick with it. This is not a loaded question because you can actually answer yes and still believe that your church is true. A loaded question would be, "Have you realized yet that your church is false?"
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 13 hours ago, Tacenda said: I see...edited because I misread your statement. I’d still like to hear your thoughts on the difference between three orientations your question represents: one of wanting to know if your church is false; one of wanting to know if it is true; and one of wanting to know if it is a little of both. What do you think the differences are? Also, what are the ramifications of any one orientation being a greater motivator than the other two, and why does a questioner give one precedence over the other two? 1
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 12 hours ago, rodheadlee said: There is no middle way, that is acceptable to Jesus Christ. Here is what he has to say about it in Revelation 3: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the afaithful and true witness, the bbeginning of the ccreation of God; 15 I know thy aworks, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art alukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will bspue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am arich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I acounsel thee to buy of me bgold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and achasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and aopen the door, I will bcome in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that aovercometh will I grant to bsit with me in my cthrone, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. You can be in transtition from belief to un-belief or you can be in transition from un-belief to belief . The latter would be acceptable to Christ. In answer to your question, only the Holy Spirit can manifest the truth of the Gospel and the fact that Jesus Christ runs the Church through His apostles to you. This is how I know the Church belongs to Him. I suggest you cultivate your relationship with God the Father through the Holy Spirit by reading the scriptures and prayer. He will let you know the Truth. This would cover many churches/faiths.
Gray Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: Why? Just because it would kill the person in question trying to do it?
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 53 minutes ago, CV75 said: I’d still like to hear your thoughts on the difference between three orientations your question represents: one of wanting to know if your church is false; one of wanting to know if it is true; and one of wanting to know if it is a little of both. What do you think the differences are? Also, what are the ramifications of any one orientation being a greater motivator than the other two, and why does a questioner give one precedence over the other two? Just wondering if the big tent is getting smaller and smaller for those that may not believe certain tenets of the church they belong to, in my case the LDS church. Although most churches have fewer requirements, such as just a belief in Jesus Christ and his resurrection.
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Just wondering if the big tent is getting smaller and smaller for those that may not believe certain tenets of the church they belong to, in my case the LDS church. Although most churches have fewer requirements, such as just a belief in Jesus Christ and his resurrection. What are the belief requirements for membership in the LDS Church, and at what point are people denied membership on the quality of their belief?
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, CV75 said: What are the belief requirements for membership in the LDS Church, and at what point are people denied membership on the quality of their belief? No one is denied membership, just a temple recommend to the CK and being with HF, pretty big thing to me. I tried to edit my quote above to add but the edit function didn't want to work so I switched devises. This is what I wanted to add: "Plus, my topic subject should have included more information, it was open ended. I wish I could change it to..."can you identify as not believing all of it and only some of your faith's tenets?". My opening topic went along fine with the Robert Kirby article though. This really is two topics in one, my bad." Edited January 26, 2016 by Tacenda
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: No one is denied membership, just a temple recommend to the CK and being with HF, pretty big thing to me. I tried to edit my quote above to add but the edit function didn't want to work so I switched devises. This is what I wanted to add: "Plus, my topic subject should have included more information, it was open ended. I wish I could change it to..."can you identify as not believing all of it and only some of your faith's tenets?". My opening topic went along fine with the Robert Kirby article though. This really is two topics in one, my bad." Can you explain what a temple recommend to the celestial kingdom is? As to the question, "Can you identify as not believing all of it and only some of your faith's tenets?” I think you can, but it depends on how you identify, both internally and externally, as to how happy you will be in the relationships you have with others who are doing the same thing you are in the same community. I’ve only found four tenets. From https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng, it seems that membership through baptism requires an affirmative response to: Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? After baptism, my understanding is that excommunication over non-belief on these tenets could only follow openly apostate behavior. Can you paraphrase Kirby for me? I’ve read links to his columns a couple of times before and quickly learned not to bother; I feel it a better use of my wherewithal to hear the poster’s thoughts instead.
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 11 minutes ago, CV75 said: Can you explain what a temple recommend to the celestial kingdom is? As to the question, "Can you identify as not believing all of it and only some of your faith's tenets?” I think you can, but it depends on how you identify, both internally and externally, as to how happy you will be in the relationships you have with others who are doing the same thing you are in the same community. I’ve only found four tenets. From https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng, it seems that membership through baptism requires an affirmative response to: Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? After baptism, my understanding is that excommunication over non-belief on these tenets could only follow openly apostate behavior. Can you paraphrase Kirby for me? I’ve read links to his columns a couple of times before and quickly learned not to bother; I feel it a better use of my wherewithal to hear the poster’s thoughts instead. I almost hate to paraphrase because it might change the dynamics of the article, and I'm not good with paraphrasing. It's just a short article. Basically, it could be stated, if your church is false would you want to know in the first place. Or if you could push a button to know if your church was true, would you?
JAHS Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 9 hours ago, Thinking said: This is not a loaded question because you can actually answer yes and still believe that your church is true. A loaded question would be, "Have you realized yet that your church is false?" But in my opinion there simply is no answer to the question. By saying yes it means that I am agreeing with the person asking the question that if he can offer sufficient evidence that it is not true that I would accept that evidence and do something about it. But I already know he can't do that so there is no answer to the question.
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 41 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I almost hate to paraphrase because it might change the dynamics of the article, and I'm not good with paraphrasing. It's just a short article. Basically, it could be stated, if your church is false would you want to know in the first place. Or if you could push a button to know if your church was true, would you? I think God approaches us with building upon the light and truth we possess rather than simply diminishing whatever we have (D&C 88:40). He exemplified this by fulfilling the law during His mortal ministry (Matthew 5:17)—he took nothing away from the faithful Jews and gave them a better perspective and option. For this reason some disciples turned away from Him; they only sought Him with the same regard it takes to push a button. They prefer personal ease over the two-way commitment He requires (John 6:26-68). Can you explain what a temple recommend to the celestial kingdom is? What do you think the belief requirements for membership in the LDS Church are, and at what point are people denied membership based on their belief?
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think God approaches us with building upon the light and truth we possess rather than simply diminishing whatever we have (D&C 88:40). He exemplified this by fulfilling the law during His mortal ministry (Matthew 5:17)—he took nothing away from the faithful Jews and gave them a better perspective and option. For this reason some disciples turned away from Him; they only sought Him with the same regard it takes to push a button. They prefer personal ease over the two-way commitment He requires (John 6:26-68). Can you explain what a temple recommend to the celestial kingdom is? What do you think the belief requirements for membership in the LDS Church are, and at what point are people denied membership based on their belief? I wouldn't get a recommend if I said 'no' to the question asking if I believed JS restored the original church. Simple as that.
rodheadlee Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: This would cover many churches/faiths. That certainly is true. When we start a journey or a sea passage we commit to the whole trip. To sit on the fence and watch the waves roll by could be fatal to the goal of reaching original intended destination. 1
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 34 minutes ago, JAHS said: But in my opinion there simply is no answer to the question. By saying yes it means that I am agreeing with the person asking the question that if he can offer sufficient evidence that it is not true that I would accept that evidence and do something about it. But I already know he can't do that so there is no answer to the question. The question seems to resonate with those who are inclined or vulnerable to conveniently dropping the church they have before exerting themselves to find something truer. Perhaps they lack faith that there is anything worthwhile. Otherwise they would engage in seeking a better church, and whether they drop their church or not before they find it becomes inconsequential.
rodheadlee Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 59 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I almost hate to paraphrase because it might change the dynamics of the article, and I'm not good with paraphrasing. It's just a short article. Basically, it could be stated, if your church is false would you want to know in the first place. Or if you could push a button to know if your church was true, would you? Yes! and that button is the Holy Spirit. Like I said in my last post.
CV75 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I wouldn't get a recommend if I said 'no' to the question asking if I believed JS restored the original church. Simple as that. OK so you wouldn't get a temple recommend if you say you don't believe Joseph Smith restored the Church and the Gospel. What's the problem?
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