Church news reiterates immigration stance

[Analytics]

11 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Every country has the prerogative to charge foreign interests for the honor of doing business within their borders

Likewise, every gunslinger has the right to shoot himself in the foot—but that doesn’t make it a smart strategy.

Having the right to engage in ‘the dumbest trade war in history’ doesn’t make it any less self-destructive for America.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Likewise, every gunslinger has the right to shoot himself in the foot—but that doesn’t make it a smart strategy.

Having the right to engage in ‘the dumbest trade war in history’ doesn’t make it any less self-destructive for America.

I'll wait for results before declaring it misguided, dumb, self-destructive, etc...

[Calm]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll wait for results before declaring it misguided, dumb, self-destructive, etc...

Can we get a date for when enough time has passed so conclusions on impact aren’t premature in your view?

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll wait for results before declaring it misguided, dumb, self-destructive, etc...

Have a lot of training in the science of economics, do you?

[Analytics]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll wait for results before declaring it misguided, dumb, self-destructive, etc...

According to The Wall Street Journal, "President Trump conceded Sunday that there may be 'some pain' from his sweeping tariffs on Mexico and Canada, but they will eventually lead to a new 'GOLDEN AGE.'" Easy for him to say—the pain is already here."

A friend of mine in the food packing industry is feeling it firsthand. Decades ago, he paid off his own student loans and strongly opposed Biden’s student loan forgiveness program. I understood his perspective. But thanks to Trump’s trade policies, he has now lost more in commissions than he ever paid for college. At least student loan forgiveness helped someone. With the dumbest trade war in history, there are no winners.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No... I'm seeing the actual comment in context and making an observation based on his use of a term generally used by [those who advocate for open borders].

No, you're making excuses because you realize what he said is stupid and looks really bad.

[Doctor Steuss]

52 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll wait for results before declaring it misguided, dumb, self-destructive, etc...

Last time, it raised the cost of U.S. intermediate goods 10-30%, a reduction in real income in the U.S. of $1.4 billion every month in deadweight losses, cost consumers an additional $3.2 billion in added taxes, caused a net loss of American jobs in the manufacturing sector, resulted in foregone American stock market capitalization of at least $5 trillion dollars (i.e. people's 401k accounts), reduced our exports, decreased the average real household income of Americans, created a trade vacuum that was filled by other countries which the US has never regained, and necessitated billions of socialist bailouts of our agricultural industry.  

Waiting for results is not a bad idea, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't allow ourselves to make predictions based on what has already happened once before.

Edited February 11, 2025 by Doctor Steuss

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Can we get a date for when enough time has passed so conclusions on impact aren’t premature in your view?

How about more than a week after the are actually in place?

[Calm]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

How about more than a week after the are actually in place?

Fine by me, but something more definite would be useful. How about one month?

[halconero]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Every country has the prerogative to charge foreign interests for the honor of doing business within their borders

I thought this was about trolling?

I too have the prerogative to do many dumb things. Yet, I refrain from amputating my own foot just so that the paramedics may have the honour of stopping the bleed.

[halconero]

1 minute ago, halconero said:

I thought this was about trolling?

I too have the prerogative to do many dumb things. Yet, I refrain from amputating my own foot just so that the paramedics may have the honour of stopping the bleed.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, everyone is aware that tariffs are a domestic sales tax, not a charge levied on foreign companies, right? That seems like a really important thing to know prior to limiting oneself from the goods that one may purchase.

Henry George has been dead for far too long.

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How about more than a week after the are actually in place?

Whatever happened to Donald saying he would end the war in Ukraine after his first day? Why couldn't he do it? War is still there. He gets out of crisis' he created by creating another one. Look at the 2018 Steel agreement he made with Canada and Mexico, 25% tariffs. He is now saying he wonders why the steel industry is having problems, it's because he made the problem and he is worsening it by creating a new problem by having, again, 25% tariffs. Last time there were 100,000 exceptions and now he say their won't be. Everything and everyone Donald cares about was with him at his coronation. He doesn't care about the Steel industry, or the workers, it's his billionaire friends. Donald is the antithesis of the American dream he's an American disgrace

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Duncan said:

yeah and Donald and his disciples thinks they scored a victory

Anything that stops the exploitation of immigrants and the violation of our sovereignty is a win in my view. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/10/2025 at 7:22 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

lol. You are delusional. I served a mission with an undocumented immigrant. His father was Bishop. The church was very aware of their status. 

Then the people who winked at the law violated basic doctrines and beliefs. 

On 2/10/2025 at 7:39 PM, Danzo said:

No they didn't. 

It is not on any baptismal interview question.

It is not one of the temple recommend questions.

The church baptizes people who are here illegally.

They ordain them to offices in the priesthood

They call them as priesthood leaders (bishops, branch presidents, etc.)

They call them on missions

They let them perform temple ordinances

They participate in sacrament meetings

In each case, the church knows they are here illegally and does not care.    At all.

I care. They are violating the laws of our country. Perhaps we should rethink. If what you describe is true, such actions could bring the Church into ill repute.

As a missionary in Honduras I was required by law to report to a point of entry every 6 weeks to have my visa renewed. It involved getting a stamp, verifying my address, and slipping the border guards a few lempiras. Failure to do so would result in arrest and expulsion and embarrassment and possible repercussions for the Church. The Church cared. And I was there legally.

In Israel we agree not to proselytize and we respect that agreement. We don’t try to sneak around it  

When the Church was first being established in Poland they were not allowed to have public gatherings. The Prophet obeyed this requirement and dedicated the country while walking quietly through a park in Warsaw. He didn’t flaunt the law  

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience…that to the laws all men owe respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man…

Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?

Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien 

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience…that to the laws all men owe respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror; human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man…

Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?

Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien 

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

 

 

I thought you were against steadying the ark? Do I have you confused with someone else? Glad to see you know more than the brethren in charge of the mission calls! Let me know when you called them to repentance. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I thought you were against steadying the ark? Do I have you confused with someone else? Glad to see you know more than the brethren in charge of the mission calls! Let me know when you called them to repentance. 

Why do you care? seemslike you would do as you often do - call out the Church for claiming one thing and doing another.

How do the people in charge of mission calls know if the missionary is an illegal alien in violation of the law and at risk of arrest, imprisonment, and deportation? How does an illegal alien answer those recommend questions honestly? Does the missionary application form ask for citizenship? If illegal aliens are called to a foreign mission, how do they get a US passport? Do people here illegally owe respect and deference to our laws? What other illegal actions should the Church wink at in approving baptism, callings, recommends, etc.?, just this one?

“Approval from the First Presidency is required before a person can be baptized and confirmed if he or she… Is currently on legal probation or parole for any serious crime or offense (usually punishable by one year in prison or longer).”

“Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.”

 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

It is old (2008), but I found this Deseret News article interesting.

Some things from it.

"The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status."

----

"While reiterating the LDS Church is politically neutral, Elder Jensen noted that immigration is not only a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

"Addressing the matter of baptism and temple rights for undocumented immigrants, Elder John C. Pingree, an Area Seventy, told the Deseret Morning News in 2005, "It's not a problem for me."

----

"The church, Elder Pingree said, does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. "But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," he said."

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

It is old (2008), but I found this Deseret News article interesting.

Some things from it.

"The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status."

----

"While reiterating the LDS Church is politically neutral, Elder Jensen noted that immigration is not only a political issue but a moral and ethical one.

"Addressing the matter of baptism and temple rights for undocumented immigrants, Elder John C. Pingree, an Area Seventy, told the Deseret Morning News in 2005, "It's not a problem for me."

----

"The church, Elder Pingree said, does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. "But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," he said."

 

 

 

That’s all fine, but a lot has happened since 2005, ie.,the sheer numbers of people and the dangers posed by so many unvetted individuals, human trafficking, and drug smuggling. Once they come here illegally they are clearly in violation of US law and can face stiff penalties.

The Church could possibly find itself in a tight place if we were seen to be shielding, rewarding, or encouraging illegals to come or to stay.

The US have unwisely allowed this to go on for too long, and now we and the aliens are suffering the unfortunate consequences of allowing it to happen. It is time to pay the fiddler.

There was a clear mandate from voters that this must stop and that remedies must be found. That does not mean they should be subjected to inhumane treatment, but either we enforce the laws and solve the problems with respect and deference or we continue down the drain.

To me, the imposition of tariffs is a peaceful response to allowing hordes to cross our borders with Canada and Mexico with the deadly trafficking of people and lethal drugs that are killing our people by the hundreds of thousands by evil secret combinations. IMO these are acts of undeclared war. If the cartels were lobbing rockets across our borders and killing our citizens, we would deal with them militarily. Forcing Mexico,  Canada, and China to stop this pharmaceutical carnage using economic tools is far more preferable at this point than sending in the Armed Forces. It appears to be working at the Mexican border. We shall see.

Do you believe that there is any need for immigration laws? Should we enforce our laws?

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

53 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s all fine, but a lot has happened since 2005, ie.,the sheer numbers of people and the dangers posed by so many unvetted individuals, human trafficking, and drug smuggling. Once they come here illegally they are clearly in violation of US law and can face stiff penalties.

The Church could possibly find itself in a tight place if we were seen to be shielding, rewarding, or encouraging illegals to come or to stay.

The US have unwisely allowed this to go on for too long, and now we and the aliens are suffering the unfortunate consequences of allowing it to happen. It is time to pay the fiddler.

There was a clear mandate from voters that this must stop and that remedies must be found. That does not mean they should be subjected to inhumane treatment, but either we enforce the laws and solve the problems with respect and deference or we continue down the drain.

To me, the imposition of tariffs is a peaceful response to allowing hordes to cross our borders with Canada and Mexico with the deadly trafficking of people and lethal drugs that are killing our people by the hundreds of thousands by evil secret combinations. IMO these are acts of undeclared war. If the cartels were lobbing rockets across our borders and killing our citizens, we would deal with them militarily. Forcing Mexico,  Canada, and China to stop this pharmaceutical carnage using economic tools is far more preferable at this point than sending in the Armed Forces. It appears to be working at the Mexican border. We shall see.

Do you believe that there is any need for immigration laws? Should we enforce our laws?

In trying to keep to board rules so I cannot answer those questions.

One of the reasons I found this quote "but once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," interesting was because when faced head on with the situation years ago I thought about it and came to the same basic conclusion - that I should make them feel like a valued part of my community. I did not know then I would be blessed for trying to do so, but I was blessed and cannot regret it. 

 

 

 

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• Quote

 

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

In trying to keep to board rules so I cannot answer those questions.

That horse got out of the barn pages ago.

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

One of the reasons I found this quote "but once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," interesting was because when faced head on with the situation years ago I thought about it and came to the same basic conclusion - that I should make them feel like a valued part of my community. I did not know then I would be blessed for trying to do so, but I was blessed and cannot regret it. 

 

• I understand and appreciate that, but things are not the same as 2005. Making them feel a valued part of the community may be illegal and unquestionably encourages more illegal immigration. We cannot sustain this. 
• I served my mission in two countries from which many illegal immigrants have come, Nicaragua and Honduras. I never met any common person there who had the money necessary to traverse their countries, travel the whole length of Mexico, and then pay thousands of dollars to a coyote to be smuggled across the US border. What they suffer at the hands of those evil men should make every American furious. There are good reasons immigration must be orderly and controlled and not chaotic. I can think of a dozen just off the top of my head, but I cannot think of even one reason we should allow this to happen the way it has. 

  Quote

  "The church's view of someone in undocumented status is akin, in a way, to a civil trespass," said Elder Marlin K. Jensen of the Seventy, relating it to coming onto someone's property uninvited. "There is nothing inherent or wrong about that status."

  But it can result in arrest, fines, imprisonment, and deportation. That a bit worse than going into someone’s yard without their permission. It is a violation of US immigration law and has consequences. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That horse got out of the barn pages ago.

 

So that means I shouldn't try to do better?

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

Whatever happened to Donald saying he would end the war in Ukraine after his first day? Why couldn't he do it? War is still there. He gets out of crisis' he created by creating another one. Look at the 2018 Steel agreement he made with Canada and Mexico, 25% tariffs. He is now saying he wonders why the steel industry is having problems, it's because he made the problem and he is worsening it by creating a new problem by having, again, 25% tariffs. Last time there were 100,000 exceptions and now he say their won't be. Everything and everyone Donald cares about was with him at his coronation. He doesn't care about the Steel industry, or the workers, it's his billionaire friends. Donald is the antithesis of the American dream he's an American disgrace

He looked pretty good with Marc Fogel in the White House tonight. Lots of folks are more optimistic about the Ukraine/Russia situation being resolved soon as a result. We’ll see what Hamas does this weekend.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Rain said:

So that means I shouldn't try to do better?

Not at all.  Stick to your guns. This will be shut down very soon. 
BTW, I noticed that Elder Pingree was talking about Church members,  not millions and millions of illegal immigrants pouring over the border.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not at all.  Stick to your guns. This will be shut down very soon. 
BTW, I noticed that Elder Pingree was talking about Church members,  not millions and millions of illegal immigrants pouring over the border.

"His comments were included in a story headlined, "Church chooses to stay out of questions of status," which was part of a Morning News series on illegal immigration"

I have been unable to find that story so in context with the interview it sounds like it is about illegal immigration. If you actually found the interview they are quoting I would love to see where it specifies that he is not talking about people who have crossed the border ilegally.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s all fine, but a lot has happened since 2005, ie.,the sheer numbers of people and the dangers posed by so many unvetted individuals, human trafficking, and drug smuggling. Once they come here illegally they are clearly in violation of US law and can face stiff penalties.

A lot has happened in what sense? There has been no huge spike in crime or drug smuggling.