Church news reiterates immigration stance

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A lot has happened in what sense? There has been no huge spike in crime or drug smuggling.

Surely you are not serious.

Yeah, I know your name is Nehor. 😉

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

"His comments were included in a story headlined, "Church chooses to stay out of questions of status," which was part of a Morning News series on illegal immigration"

I have been unable to find that story so in context with the interview it sounds like it is about illegal immigration. If you actually found the interview they are quoting I would love to see where it specifies that he is not talking about people who have crossed the border ilegally.

Can’t find the article, but it says so in the quote. Surely he is not referring to 10-20 million illegal aliens that have come since 2005. 
 

Quote

"The church, Elder Pingree said, does everything it can to encourage its members to stay in their home countries to strengthen local stakes and wards. "But once they're here, we want to make them feel like part of the community, a valued part of the community," he said."

Once “they” are here and stay whether they be members or not, they are still violating the law even if we feel they should be a valued part of the community. How is that even possible? We don’t know who millions of them are nor where they come from. That really concerns me.  

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[stelf]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Can’t find the article, but it says so in the quote. Surely he is not referring to 10-20 million illegal aliens that have come since 2005. 
 

Once “they” are here and stay whether they be members or not, they are still violating the law even if we feel they should be a valued part of the community. How is that even possible? We don’t know who millions of them are nor where they come from. That really concerns me.  

This last statement you made is something that really concerns me. You admit that you don't know anything about them and seem to impute the most negative of outcomes. I think this is the case with many on this issue. We fear the unknown.

The problem is that we do have data on the effect they have on us and it points to them being a large benefit.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-does-immigration-affect-us-economy

Edited February 12, 2025 by stelf

[Analytics]

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Quote

A lot has happened in what sense? There has been no huge spike in crime or drug smuggling.

Surely you are not serious.

Yeah, I know your name is Nehor. 😉

What are you talking about? Here are the facts:

1. Undocumented immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than native-born citizens. 
2. Most drugs, including fentanyl, are smuggled by U.S. citizens at legal ports, not illegal border crossings
3. Undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes and have net-positive effect on the economy and government budgets
4. Immigration has little impact on native wages and fills and essential gap in the workforce
5. As immigration has risen, the violent crime rates have gone down dramatically over the last 40 years

These facts are all well-documented. Are you disputing these facts, or are you talking about something else?

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, stelf said:

This last statement you made is something that really concerns me. You admit that you don't know anything about them and so you are scared. I think this is the case with many on this issue. We fear the unknown. Who can predict what horrors will be unleashed on our society by these others. 

The problem is that we do have data on the effect they have on us and it points to them being a large benefit.

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-does-immigration-affect-us-economy

Well, glory be! Send more!

[stelf]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, glory be! Send more!

Let me be clear. I am not advocating for more illegal immigration. I would love to see the day when legal immigration is far easier. However, I know many of these people. They have fled from countries where their prospects for survival were low, let alone the chances of thriving. They come here and work to provide for themselves and their families and they live in fear. 

I am advocating for the cessation of using them as a bogeyman.

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I care. They are violating the laws of our country. Perhaps we should rethink. If what you describe is true, such actions could bring the Church into ill repute.

It would seem the church has gone astray. You should probably start your own church. One that only administers the ordinances to those whom you think should be here. 

Or perhaps you should go talk to the prophets and apostles, they probably need another advisor to help them steady the ark.

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, stelf said:

Let me be clear. I am not advocating for more illegal immigration. I would love to see the day when legal immigration is far easier. However, I know many of these people. They have fled from countries where their prospects for survival were low, let alone the chances of thriving. They come here and work to provide for themselves and their families and they live in fear. 

I am advocating for the cessation of using them as a bogeyman.

Well put

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

What are you talking about? Here are the facts:

1. Undocumented immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than native-born citizens. 
2. Most drugs, including fentanyl, are smuggled by U.S. citizens at legal ports, not illegal border crossings
3. Undocumented immigrants pay billions in taxes and have net-positive effect on the economy and government budgets
4. Immigration has little impact on native wages and fills and essential gap in the workforce
5. As immigration has risen, the violent crime rates have gone down dramatically over the last 40 years

These facts are all well-documented. Are you disputing these facts, or are you talking about something else?

You’re right. Illegal immigration does wonders for our country.

1. We must replace all native-born citizens with illegal aliens. Then there will be no crime. With little or no illegal immigration, US crime rates would be even lower.

2. Good. Only enough drugs get through illegal crossings to kill our population a few times over. And here I was under the impression that the cartels were master criminals. They must be stupid sending it where they know it will be discovered.

3. The more illegal immigrants and the more our economy will thrive. Silly me. And here I thought that hiring illegal aliens was against the law. I even foolishly believed one could not pay income taxes without a SSN. Oh….that must mean they have tax free income.  Sign me up!

4. Who will pick the cotton? How do you keep them down on the farm after they’ve seen Paree? 

5. As more and more illegal immigrants enter, we become safer as a nation. Finally, having open borders makes sense to me. 

I thank you. I have no need to be concerned.

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Danzo said:

It would seem the church has gone astray. You should probably start your own church. One that only administers the ordinances to those whom you think should be here. 

Or perhaps you should go talk to the prophets and apostles, they probably need another advisor to help them steady the ark.

 

🥰👍

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do the people in charge of mission calls know if the missionary is an illegal alien in violation of the law and at risk of arrest, imprisonment, and deportation? How does an illegal alien answer those recommend questions honestly? Does the missionary application form ask for citizenship? If illegal aliens are called to a foreign mission, how do they get a US passport? Do people here illegally owe respect and deference to our laws? What other illegal actions should the Church wink at in approving baptism, callings, recommends, etc.?, just this one?

Trust me, they know.  It is included with the mission application. My wife served a mission while illegal (the mission president knew).  My wife's sister was called to serve a mission in Mexico while she was here illegally.  The church knew.  My Wife's brother was called to serve a mission in the states while he was here illegally.  The church knew. My daughter was baptized under the keys of a branch president who was here illegally (the church knew).  The man later served on the high council and is now a counselor in a bishopric.   When I was serving in Italy, a member who was there illegally from peru was called to serve a mission. The church knew. He couldn't leave the country because of his status, so he wasn't able to be endowed or go to the MTC, but he was called and set apart and served his mission.  I personally taught Temple Preparation classes to a couple who were here illegally and they went and got sealed in the temple (the church knew).  The Temple president here (who has served as a seventy and a mission president and  speaks Spanish)  personally taught the temple preparation class to a friend of mine and was there for her endowment session. (He knew she was illegal). 

People answer the temple recommend honestly, why do you presume these good members of the church are lying to their priesthood leaders? Do you sustain the prophet? Maybe we should all reflect on our own answers to the temple recommend questions before presuming to answer the questions for others. 

Do you think you know better than the prophet, who issued the mission calls or the quorum of the twelve, who issued the assignment. Sometimes the church makes a decision that runs contrary to our personal political beliefs.  Are you going to follow the prophet and the laws of god or do you owe your allegiance to man.

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Danzo

[Rain]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Can’t find the article, but it says so in the quote. Surely he is not referring to 10-20 million illegal aliens that have come since 2005. 
 

Once “they” are here and stay whether they be members or not, they are still violating the law even if we feel they should be a valued part of the community. How is that even possible? We don’t know who millions of them are nor where they come from. That really concerns me.  

It says "member" in a sentance of an article titled, "Church chooses to stay out of questions of status,". Without context neither of us can say anything about the legal status of those members, but given the article I linked from Deseret News (which is friendly to the church) quotes this and the conext of the article I think if the context of the interview were shown, that those members who have crossed illegally would be made welcome by them as well. 

I actually found this article when seaching for an article that said something about the church allowing and working with people in mission calls. I remember hearing about it when I lived in Utah, but it may just be too long ago to find it easily.  It was a minimum of 11 years ago. I do know I attended the sealing of neighbors 18+ years ago of someone who had crossed the border and church leaders were well aware of it. I'm glad the church practiced what it preached on helping this family feel welcome.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

We don’t know who millions of them are nor where they come from. That really concerns me.

It always puzzles me to hear this comment. As I sit here at work being paid by people who are here illegally to report to the US government that they are here illegally.  

People seem to think that there are hoards of people hiding in the bushes, coming out at night to wreck havoc,  when they are just people like you and me.  They go to church, live and volunteer in the community., pay their taxes and work like the rest of us. 

 

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I even foolishly believed one could not pay income taxes without a SSN. Oh….that must mean they have tax free income.  Sign me up!

You are wrong on that one. 

A Social Security number is not needed to pay income tax.  Taxes are required for all US Citizens, and us residents (as defined by the tax code, under IRC Section 7701 as someone who has been here at 183 days).  Tax are required for non residents and Citizens of foreign countries on US sourced income (reportable on the Form 1040-NR).  The IRS issues ITIN numbers to people who don't have Social Security numbers so they can pay their taxes. 

If Even you, who (presumably) are a US Citizen and have been for a long time don't understand US Law, maybe you could give others a little slack. 

 

[Benjamin McGuire]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

1. We must replace all native-born citizens with illegal aliens. Then there will be no crime. With little or no illegal immigration, US crime rates would be even lower.

It's a good thought.

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

2. Good. Only enough drugs get through illegal crossings to kill our population a few times over. And here I was under the impression that the cartels were master criminals. They must be stupid sending it where they know it will be discovered.

This isn't true, of course. 90% of drugs come through legal crossings by US citizens.

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

3. The more illegal immigrants and the more our economy will thrive. Silly me. And here I thought that hiring illegal aliens was against the law. I even foolishly believed one could not pay income taxes without a SSN. Oh….that must mean they have tax free income.  Sign me up!

This issue is actually far more complicated. It's not about the illegal/legal question - its about immigration more generally. Without immigration, US population would be facing significant declines. Citizen fertility rates are a whopping 1.66 right now. That's way below replacement rates of 2.1. The only thing that has kept our population from precipitous declines is that our life expectancy is increasing, and our aging population is becoming a larger and larger percent of the population. Even with the aging population growing larger, without immigration, 2024 would have been the first year to see population decline in the U.S. Fortunately, we have immigration which keeps bringing in younger people who are able to support this older population. This study details the impacts - and suggests that to keep even with our current status, we have to increase immigration into the country by a factor of 3.5. So it isn't merely about the taxes produced by our legal and illegal immigrants - its the fact that our economy is going to rely more and more on immigrants (regardless of their status) to maintain economic stability (let alone to produce any sort of growth).

Do they pay taxes. Yes. They pay taxes at rates that are significantly higher than the tax rates paid by the wealthiest Americans. More than half of them pay Federal taxes using either an ITIN or by using a false social security number - and a significant portion of their taxes go to programs that they are not qualified to use.

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

4. Who will pick the cotton? How do you keep them down on the farm after they’ve seen Paree? 

And now we get the racism ... the real problem is that historically immigrants have worked jobs that most Americans are unwilling to work (either because of the work or because of the pay or some combination of the two).

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

5. As more and more illegal immigrants enter, we become safer as a nation. Finally, having open borders makes sense to me. 

Having open borders doesn't mean that we don't have efforts to manage the flow of people. We could allow everyone who comes in to register, to be issued the necessary identification to fully participate in our tax system, to help them understand their rights and responsibilities as guests. So open borders doesn't lead to more "illegal immigrants" it leads to more legal aliens who then have the freedom to participate in more appropriate ways in our society.

At any rate, the fear mongering has little value ...

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, stelf said:

Let me be clear. I am not advocating for more illegal immigration. I would love to see the day when legal immigration is far easier. However, I know many of these people. They have fled from countries where their prospects for survival were low, let alone the chances of thriving. They come here and work to provide for themselves and their families and they live in fear. 

I am advocating for the cessation of using them as a bogeyman.

Let me be clear. The bogeymen are the hideous ba----ds who exploit the illegal immigrants and the corrupt politicians who use them for twisted agendas.

I grew up in New Mexico. I have beloved close Latino relatives. I served a mission in Nicaragua and Honduras where I saw their condition and the corruption that perpetuated it up close for two years. My first discussion was in a shanty ghetto on the side of the mountain above Tegucigalpa, Honduras. The muddy path up to the ghetto was lined with make-shift shanties and children dressed only in t-shirts urinating and defecating in a fowl trench that ran beside the path. The family of 7 that we visited lived in a 10x10 shack constructed from sticks and flattened cardboard boxes. There was a dirt floor and no furniture or appliances. I have no idea how the parents obtained food, but I can almost guarantee the kids begged for money on the streets in the capital city. There is no way they could afford the 5 Lempiras (about $.20) it would cost them to get to church and they had no clothing that would be presentable. Eventually, we were asked not to contact people there. Of course they deserve the blessings of the gospel, but their situation made it impossible for them! We as missionaries gave money to beggars at times, but that was not the solution. Just a few years later, Hurricane Mitch washed the mountainside clean and all those folks ended up in the river and then in the ocean.  During my whole time there, I never met a person as you describe who could afford to make the trek from their country, all the way across the length of Mexico, and to our border. 

I am advocating against using illegal immigrants as cash cows for cartels and fodder for corrupt Latin American and North American politicians. The only solution is to stop the exploitation and put all efforts into fixing their problems at home.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

You are wrong on that one. 

A Social Security number is not needed to pay income tax.  Taxes are required for all US Citizens, and us residents (as defined by the tax code, under IRC Section 7701 as someone who has been here at 183 days).  Tax are required for non residents and Citizens of foreign countries on US sourced income (reportable on the Form 1040-NR).  The IRS issues ITIN numbers to people who don't have Social Security numbers so they can pay their taxes. 

If Even you, who (presumably) are a US Citizen and have been for a long time don't understand US Law, maybe you could give others a little slack. 

 

also Donald only paid 1500$ in taxes for his first two years in office, it looks like it should have been a lot lot more

[Bernard Gui]

48 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Trust me, they know.  It is included with the mission application. My wife served a mission while illegal (the mission president knew).  My wife's sister was called to serve a mission in Mexico while she was here illegally.  The church knew.  My Wife's brother was called to serve a mission in the states while he was here illegally.  The church knew. My daughter was baptized under the keys of a branch president who was here illegally (the church knew).  The man later served on the high council and is now a counselor in a bishopric.   When I was serving in Italy, a member who was there illegally from peru was called to serve a mission. The church knew. He couldn't leave the country because of his status, so he wasn't able to be endowed or go to the MTC, but he was called and set apart and served his mission.  I personally taught Temple Preparation classes to a couple who were here illegally and they went and got sealed in the temple (the church knew).  The Temple president here (who has served as a seventy and a mission president and  speaks Spanish)  personally taught the temple preparation class to a friend of mine and was there for her endowment session. (He knew she was illegal). 

People answer the temple recommend honestly, why do you presume these good members of the church are lying to their priesthood leaders? Do you sustain the prophet? Maybe we should all reflect on our own answers to the temple recommend questions before presuming to answer the questions for others. 

Do you think you know better than the prophet, who issued the mission calls or the quorum of the twelve, who issued the assignment. Sometimes the church makes a decision that runs contrary to our personal political beliefs.  Are you going to follow the prophet and the laws of god or do you owe your allegiance to man.

I hope as part of the repentance process they all became legal. 

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Let me be clear. The bogeymen are the hideous ba----ds who exploit the illegal immigrants and the corrupt politicians who use them for twisted agendas.

I grew up in New Mexico. I have beloved close Latino relatives. I served a mission in Nicaragua and Honduras where I saw their condition and the corruption that perpetuated it up close for two years. My first discussion was in a shanty ghetto on the side of the mountain above Tegucigalpa, Honduras. The muddy path up to the ghetto was lined with make-shift shanties and children dressed only in t-shirts urinating and defecating in a fowl trench that ran beside the path. The family of 7 that we visited lived in a 10x10 shack constructed from sticks and flattened cardboard boxes. There was a dirt floor and no furniture or appliances. I have no idea how the parents obtained food, but I can almost guarantee the kids begged for money on the streets in the capital city. There is no way they could afford the 5 Lempiras (about $.20) it would cost them to get to church and they had no clothing that would be presentable. Eventually, we were asked not to contact people there. Of course they deserve the blessings of the gospel, but their situation made it impossible for them! We as missionaries gave money to beggars at times, but that was not the solution. Just a few years later, Hurricane Mitch washed the mountainside clean and all those folks ended up in the river and then in the ocean.  During my whole time there, I never met a person as you describe who could afford to make the trek from their country, all the way across the length of Mexico, and to our border. 

I am advocating for using illegal immigrants as cash cows for cartels and fodder for Latin American and North American politicians. The only solution is to stop the exploitation and put all efforts into fixing their problems at home.

I deal with illegal people all of the time.  They are do not deal with cartels and they really aren't involved in US politics.  The work here and run businesses that provide Jobs for US Citizens and pay taxes.  Some of them pay a lot of taxes.  I have clients who are here illegally that pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes.

I think your problem is that you want to put everyone who immigrated here illegally in one group and judge all of them by the behavior of the worst minority of that group.  How is that any different than when the Anti's Judge us because of some misbehaving member.  We rightly say, "That isn't us"  when people say "Did you hear about that bishop or other church that did a bad thing?" 

First, we probably shouldn't group all this people together. 

Second, we should be very careful about using the worst behavior of these people to describe the whole group.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

also Donald only paid 1500$ in taxes for his first two years in office, it looks like it should have been a lot lot more

Shame on him!

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

It says "member" in a sentance of an article titled, "Church chooses to stay out of questions of status,". Without context neither of us can say anything about the legal status of those members, but given the article I linked from Deseret News (which is friendly to the church) quotes this and the conext of the article I think if the context of the interview were shown, that those members who have crossed illegally would be made welcome by them as well. 

I actually found this article when seaching for an article that said something about the church allowing and working with people in mission calls. I remember hearing about it when I lived in Utah, but it may just be too long ago to find it easily.  It was a minimum of 11 years ago. I do know I attended the sealing of neighbors 18+ years ago of someone who had crossed the border and church leaders were well aware of it. I'm glad the church practiced what it preached on helping this family feel welcome.

Indeed. Honest question....I don't know how a person clear violating the law can be honest in all things. Could you please explain?

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I deal with illegal people all of the time.  They are do not deal with cartels and they really aren't involved in US politics.  The work here and run businesses that provide Jobs for US Citizens and pay taxes.  Some of them pay a lot of taxes.  I have clients who are here illegally that pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes.

I think your problem is that you want to put everyone who immigrated here illegally in one group and judge all of them by the behavior of the worst minority of that group.  How is that any different than when the Anti's Judge us because of some misbehaving member.  We rightly say, "That isn't us"  when people say "Did you hear about that bishop or other church that did a bad thing?" 

First, we probably shouldn't group all this people together. 

Second, we should be very careful about using the worst behavior of these people to describe the whole group.

Of course, not all illegal immigrants are criminals, but anyone who is here illegally is violating the law and is subject to prosecution whether they own businesses, pay taxes, run drugs, engage in gang activity, or whatever. It is against the law to employ undocumented workers.

They are indeed involved in American politics. Unfortunately, that is the situation we have foolishly and dangerously allowed to happen. Yes, it is a difficult problem, but one that sooner or later must be resolved. Starting with ending the flow. 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

40 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

It's a good thought.

This isn't true, of course. 90% of drugs come through legal crossings by US citizens.

This issue is actually far more complicated. It's not about the illegal/legal question - its about immigration more generally. Without immigration, US population would be facing significant declines. Citizen fertility rates are a whopping 1.66 right now. That's way below replacement rates of 2.1. The only thing that has kept our population from precipitous declines is that our life expectancy is increasing, and our aging population is becoming a larger and larger percent of the population. Even with the aging population growing larger, without immigration, 2024 would have been the first year to see population decline in the U.S. Fortunately, we have immigration which keeps bringing in younger people who are able to support this older population. This study details the impacts - and suggests that to keep even with our current status, we have to increase immigration into the country by a factor of 3.5. So it isn't merely about the taxes produced by our legal and illegal immigrants - its the fact that our economy is going to rely more and more on immigrants (regardless of their status) to maintain economic stability (let alone to produce any sort of growth).

Do they pay taxes. Yes. They pay taxes at rates that are significantly higher than the tax rates paid by the wealthiest Americans. More than half of them pay Federal taxes using either an ITIN or by using a false social security number - and a significant portion of their taxes go to programs that they are not qualified to use.

And now we get the racism ... the real problem is that historically immigrants have worked jobs that most Americans are unwilling to work (either because of the work or because of the pay or some combination of the two).

Having open borders doesn't mean that we don't have efforts to manage the flow of people. We could allow everyone who comes in to register, to be issued the necessary identification to fully participate in our tax system, to help them understand their rights and responsibilities as guests. So open borders doesn't lead to more "illegal immigrants" it leads to more legal aliens who then have the freedom to participate in more appropriate ways in our society.

At any rate, the fear mongering has little value ...

I'll not acquiesce to your specious accusation of racism. Such a tawdry tactic on your part! On the contrary, the racists are those who think it's ok to exploit illegal immigrants as cheap laborers, tax payers,  and population producers, just as those racists who exploited African slaves. 

Not everyone agrees that illegal immigrants have a positive effect on the economy. 

Using false SSNs? That is also illegal activity.

Allow everyone to come in????

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I hope as part of the repentance process they all became legal. 

 

They try.  Unfortunately for most of these people it isn't legal to get legal.  Part of the messed up immigration law we have in the US. Its pretty strange.

But I would be careful not to put your own private worthiness requirements on members of the church.

We all fall short of the law and we all need repentance.  None of us are going to saved by our own righteousness.  

 

[Danzo]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. Honest question....I don't know how a person clear violating the law can be honest in all things. Could you please explain?

we all are violators of the law. We are all sinners.  We are perfected in Christ, we don't have to be perfect before coming to Christ.