Church news reiterates immigration stance

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

The people or the laws? 🙂

 

It’s important to remember that laws are not holy just because they are laws. There have been plenty of laws which were immoral. We don’t worship laws and that’s important to remember.

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, no, you don't get it, but you seem to be making the point that bishops, stake presidents, and general authorities who wink at immigration laws (if so, I hope they do not do it in legally precarious ways, which I am sure they are rightly taking great pains not to do) are

actually breaking the law themselves for a righteous purpose. Do I read you correctly? 

The church is choosing not to make compliance with immigration a requirement for church membership or participation, in any way.

The Church doesn't view noncompliance with immigration to be important.  Obviously they don't think that law is as important as other laws, like the child support you mentioned earlier.  Some laws are more important than other laws. 

Obviously, you disagree and think immigration laws should be of higher importance in determining worthiness. If you have a problem with that, you should probably speak with your Stake President. As I always tell investigators who have a problem with some of the church "rules". Its not my church, so I don't make the rules. 

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It looks like the government is picking and choosing to enforce immigration laws. That seems to cause a few folks heartburn.

Most of the heartburn comes from people who don't have to worry about immigration law on a day to day basis.  For those of us who are aware of how the system works, there are other things to keep us up at night.

[Bernard Gui]

Well, this is pertinent and very interesting…

Quote

8 US Code 1342

C) It is not a violation of clauses  (ii) or (iii) of subparagraph (A), or of clause (iv) of subparagraph (A) except where a person encourages or induces an alien to come to or enter the United States, for a religious denomination having a bona fide nonprofit, religious organization in theUnited States, or the agents or officers of such denomination ororganization, to encourage, invite, call, allow, or enable an alien who is present in the United States to perform the vocation of a minister or missionary for the denomination or organization in the United States as a volunteer who is not compensated as an employee, notwithstanding the provision of room, board, travel, medical assistance, and other basic living expenses, provided the minister or missionary has been a member of the denomination for at least one year.

 

[Danzo]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The people or the laws? 🙂

This seems to be a pretty high bar of respect of the law to me. If we don't agree with certain immigration laws, there are ways to change them, but we shouldn't flout them, IMO.

We work to change what we can, and live with what we can't.  If the government doesn't care to enforce the law, why should I?

We should have to have a lawyer to review all of the different federal laws before we let people be baptized or go to the temple. (even the lawyers don't know all of the laws, I certainly don't)

[Danzo]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Well, this is pertinent and very interesting…

 

Immigration law can be quite complex.

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Immigration law can be quite complex.

That seems pretty straight-forward to me. I appears the Church applies this to calling missionaries who may be illegal aliens. Reminds me of having to report our missionary status to the draft board regularly in the 60s. All the i’s had to be dotted or bad things could happen.
 

Quote

We work to change what we can, and live with what we can't.  If the government doesn't care to enforce the law, why should I?

We should have to have a lawyer to review all of the different federal laws before we let people be baptized or go to the temple. (even the lawyers don't know all of the laws, I certainly don't)

I’m not talking about the government dictating who gets baptized or go to the temple. That’s not even on the view finder.  I’m talking about our Church policies and practices vis a vis legal immigration regulations. I am absolutely certain the Church has very good lawyers keeping a close eye on how this is developing. 

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Danzo]

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You can file IRS Form 3949-A to report the alleged cheater and walk away. But if you want a reward, file Form 211 instead. Whistle-blowers can get 15% to 30% of the amount collected if the case involves more than $2 million in taxes, penalties, interest and other amounts. If the suspected cheater is an individual, he or she must also make more than $200,000 a year. Below those thresholds, the award is discretionary.  In 2015, the rewards totaled more than $103 million for 99 whistle-blowers.

You can report to the IRS, but try reporting to your local law enforcement.  They won't care. Even if you have all the evidence in the world your neighbor is cheating on their taxes.  Only one government agency really cares.  

The same with Immigration.  Only one government agency actually cares, no one else does. 

The same with EPA violations, or OSHA Violations, or cash payments in excess of $10,000.00, or cutting firewood on forest service land. These are laws no one cares about unless you happen to work for a specific government agency assigned to that topic.  Why? because these laws don't deal with serious moral sins.  Just paperwork and regulatory violations.  Sure, people think these laws are important, but only because the laws say they are important, not because the thing people are doing is inherently wrong. 

Its the same with Immigrants.  Their particular status isn't important to anyone because they are just doing the same things everyone else is doing, working, eating, worshiping and playing.  Just not complying with rules that no one really thinks or cares about unless you happen to work for that government agency tasked with the enforcement of that particular law. 

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I am absolutely certain the Church has very good lawyers keeping a close eye on how this is developing.

Unfortunately, this is necessary in the world we live in today. 

[Bernard Gui]

20 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Most of the heartburn comes from people who don't have to worry about immigration law on a day to day basis.  For those of us who are aware of how the system works, there are other things to keep us up at night.

Well, the heartburn is approaching ulcer levels in a lot of folks now that the government has decided as promised to tighten up immigration law and is enforcing it on a 24/7 basis.  Some even threatening violence over it. 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, the heartburn is approaching ulcer levels in a lot of folks now that the government has decided as promised to tighten up immigration law and is enforcing it on a 24/7 basis.  Some even threatening violence over it. 

I guess we will see how much enforcement actually takes place.  

There definitely are some loud noises, but I personally don't think much more will happen in the second term, than happened in the first term.

We will see.

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The same with Immigration.  Only one government agency actually cares, no one else does. 

I don’t believe that is true. Mass undocumented immigration affects education, health care, housing, employment, housing availability, law enforcement, and many other important areas of our culture….and here we see how it impacts our Church. There are very good reasons…self-evident even…why immigration must be orderly, vetted, legal, and humane. What has been happening at our borders is none of these.

The bogeymen are those that profit from exploitation, whether they be cartels, businesses, or politicians. They should feel the results of their evil doing.

Edited February 12, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[stelf]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Being “concerned” is not the same thing as “scared”.  For example, I am concerned about certain things that aren’t working as they should in my home.  If I was scared, I would not be living here (I do have the ability to relatively easily change residence unlike some).  

It doesn’t help to push emotions on those you are discussing things with if your intent is worthwhile conversation.

Thank you Calm. I agree wholeheartedly and my choice of words was poor. I apologize for this and will edit my post. 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t believe that is true. Mass undocumented immigration affects education, health care, housing, employment, housing availability, law enforcement, and many other important areas of our culture….and here we see how it impacts our Church. There are very good reasons…self-evident even…why immigration must be orderly, vetted, legal, and humane. What has been happening at our borders is none of these.

The bogeymen are those that profit from exploitation, whether they be cartels or politicians. They should feel the results of their evil doing.

When I said no one else does, I was referring to government departments. Certainly, people, like yourself do care.

You are quite right that Mass undocumented immigration affects these areas, especially health care and housing.  Much of the housing that is built these days is built by undocumented immigrants, They also are providing health care and are creating Jobs for many people.  Right now, between responses to you, I am working on the taxes for an undocumented immigrant that provides about thirty people their jobs. There isn't enough housing, think how much worse it would be if there weren't undocumented people building all of theses houses. They certainly would have to close some of the schools down here if it weren't for the children of these undocumented people who attend these schools.  US citizens aren't having children. 

I personally profit from services I provide to undocumented individuals.  I don't like to think I am evil, but I do fall short and have to repent often. I certainly am not going to make it to heaven on my own. 

[Danzo]

FYI.  I just calculated some of the taxes for a particular undocumented individual.  About $120,000.00.

Much of that is going to the social security and Medicare tax trust funds.

For those of you receiving social security checks and are on Medicare:  Your Welcome. 

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by Danzo

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I too agree that LDS leaders always obey the law of the land. Perhaps most famously how they always obeyed the anti-bigamy laws. 

Do they still do that? I hadn’t noticed. 

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Danzo said:

When I said no one else does, I was referring to government departments. Certainly, people, like yourself do care.

You are quite right that Mass undocumented immigration affects these areas, especially health care and housing.  Much of the housing that is built these days is built by undocumented immigrants, They also are providing health care and are creating Jobs for many people.  Right now, between responses to you, I am working on the taxes for an undocumented immigrant that provides about thirty people their jobs. There isn't enough housing, think how much worse it would be if there weren't undocumented people building all of theses houses. They certainly would have to close some of the schools down here if it weren't for the children of these undocumented people who attend these schools.  US citizens aren't having children. 

I personally profit from services I provide to undocumented individuals.  I don't like to think I am evil, but I do fall short and have to repent often. I certainly am not going to make it to heaven on my own. 

I really appreciate your input Danzo! 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think when you stop treating people as individuals and children of God and treat them as one of "millions of millions of illegal immigrants to cross the border of a sovereign country with impunity" is where you start running afoul of the Law of the Gospel.  The Law of the Gospel requires us to love our neighbors (who is our neighbor?, glad you asked, Jesus gave a good example).  The law of the Gospel requires us to love our enemies (when was the last time you prayed for your enemies?) The law of the gospel requires you reconcile with your brother before coming to the alter.  The temple teaches us that we should not be involved in true prayer if we have unkind feelings.  

We are always failing at these teachings, they are hard. But Each of us has to come to the altar with a broken heart to ask for forgiveness of our sins.  We cannot pretend that we are better than our neighbors just because we sin differently. 

Sermonizing and shaming aren’t helpful.

None of this addresses the dire consequences of millions of immigrants coming into a country illegally. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It’s important to remember that laws are not holy just because they are laws. There have been plenty of laws which were immoral. We don’t worship laws and that’s important to remember.

Are current immigration laws are among the immoral ones? 

[bluebell]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Are current immigration laws are among the immoral ones? 

I don't know enough about them to even say.  I don't have enough knowledge to judge them one way or the other.

[Danzo]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sermonizing and shaming aren’t helpful.

None of this addresses the dire consequences of millions of immigrants coming into a country illegally. 

I think the words of Christ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ are appropriate for a discussion board about the Church of Jesus Christ.  I didn't mean to offend you. 

Edited February 13, 2025 by Danzo

[Danzo]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are current immigration laws are among the immoral ones? 

Yes

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

None of this addresses the dire consequences of millions of immigrants coming into a country illegally. 

If only those dire consequences outweighed the advantages. Unfortunately it is a situation that many Americans exploit to their own advantage 

Rubio Campaign Press Release - Fact Check: Donald Trump Used Illegal Immigrants to Build Trump Tower

 

Edited February 13, 2025 by Zosimus

[Tacenda]

I hope @smac97will watch this. Trump doesn't care about our country. He's one of the billionaires this video is talking about. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFYdexFpouB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sermonizing and shaming aren’t helpful.

None of this addresses the dire consequences of millions of immigrants coming into a country illegally. 

What dire consequences?