Trib Article re: The Church & Members and Mass Deportations

[OGHoosier]

24 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The only way for some of my immediate family to overcome this obstacle is to apply for permanent residency, even though they have no intention of being permanent residents. 

Hold on, what are visas for then? Is there an obstacle to that I don't know about? 

[Danzo]

16 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Hold on, what are visas for then? Is there an obstacle to that I don't know about? 

The US doesn't grant a tourist visa if you are a poor person with relatives in the US.  (technically if you can't "Prove" strong ties to your home country.

Basically if you are a poor Mexican with family here, they won't grant you the visa.

[OGHoosier]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The US doesn't grant a tourist visa if you are a poor person with relatives in the US.  (technically if you can't "Prove" strong ties to your home country.

Surely you must have more detail. Is it a property requirement?

Edit: Okay, I see what you mean. Basically, they can't prove that they have sufficient ties which will compel them to go back to the home country when their visa is expired. Seems sensible from an enforcement end but would create difficulties.

It seems like any modification of this would require a stepped up immigration enforcement.

Edited December 14, 2024 by OGHoosier

[Danzo]

44 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Surely you must have more detail. Is it a property requirement?

Edit: Okay, I see what you mean. Basically, they can't prove that they have sufficient ties which will compel them to go back to the home country when their visa is expired. Seems sensible from an enforcement end but would create difficulties.

It seems like any modification of this would require a stepped up immigration enforcement..

 

Stepped up enforcement of good laws could be a good thing. However Stepped up enforcement of bad laws would be a bad thing.

As I said earlier the law needs to be changed to allow for 

1.    a realistic legal way to come in to the country (if there is no practical,  way to come in the country, people are going to choose an illegal way).   The analogy I like to give is imagine you come to a stop light that doesn't turn green.  After a while, if you see no police, and you think it is safe you are going to run the stop light and break the law.  The stop light has to turn green for a long enough time for you to actually comply with the law.  For most of these people there is no green light.

2.    There needs to be a statute of limitations on immigration law enforcement.  If you can put a statute of limitations on kidnapping, bank robbery and attempted murder, you should be able to put one on immigration enforcement.

Once the law has been changed to address those two items, I would have no problem with increased enforcement.

 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

It is pretty clear you are not following what I am saying, I don't know how help you.

Well, you could lower the temperature, but you seem unwilling or unable to do so.  I'll let you do do.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rodheadlee]

All legalities aside where are we going to absorb 10 million new people? Whose wages will be affected by this? It was a huge problem when Jimmy Carter let everybody in when he was president. I lost my retirement.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

All legalities aside where are we going to absorb 10 million new people? Whose wages will be affected by this? It was a huge problem when Jimmy Carter let everybody in when he was president. I lost my retirement.

Those are questions asked in nearly every country and I understand why. While I don't believe in the church anymore I still feel a siblinghood with God's children.  If no one will take them then what is to become of them? I can no longer sit back and do nothing - for either those in my own country or out.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Rain

[rodheadlee]

36 minutes ago, Rain said:

Those are questions asked in nearly every country and I understand why. While I don't believe in the church anymore I still feel a siblinghood with God's children.  If no one will take them then what is to become of them? I can no longer sit back and do nothing - for either those in my own country or out.

Great so what are your ideas about housing these people? I thought we should pick out a spot of land in the middle of Oklahoma and let them help in building an entirely New City. For a while I had a spot picked out next to a Indian Reservation that appeared to have a river running through it that would be a suitable site. I could just imagine all the red tape that would have to be gone through to get such a project off the ground.

Edited December 15, 2024 by rodheadlee

[Duncan]

44 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Great so what are your ideas about housing these people? I thought we should pick out a spot of land in the middle of Oklahoma and let them help in building an entirely New City. For a while I had a spot picked out next to a Indian Reservation that appeared to have a river running through it that would be a suitable site. I could just imagine all the red tape that would have to be gone through to get such a project off the ground.

Ask an indigenous person, they had to accomodate, unwillingly, all of us North Americans-I am sure they have opinions about immigration 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Duncan

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Ask an indigenous person, they had to accomodate, unwillingly, all of us North Americans-I am sure they have opinions about immigration 

But it is offcourse ridicelous that we in the Netherlands are letting everyone in and need to help everyone (in my opinion something that we absolutely don't need to do) while there is simply just no space anymore in our little country. It's just full. And you guys kick everyone out while you guys have plenty of space to help some foreigners. But even more important, start helping your own people. Because i just know that a lot of people are homeless in the united states. Why do those people don't get help? Why is the government not building more homes...there is so much space...plenty of land to build on. 🤷‍♀️

Edited December 15, 2024 by Dario_M

[Rain]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Great so what are your ideas about housing these people? I thought we should pick out a spot of land in the middle of Oklahoma and let them help in building an entirely New City. For a while I had a spot picked out next to a Indian Reservation that appeared to have a river running through it that would be a suitable site. I could just imagine all the red tape that would have to be gone through to get such a project off the ground.

Like I said I don't have the knowledge to make policies, but the first thing I can think of doing is change more zones to allow multi family housing. I get that some few areas can't handle more people, but in so many areas many people just don't want people who need apartments to live in the area. 

I'm not aware of numbers for asylum seekers or who are here illegally, but refugees actually help the economy more than they get help. They create more jobs through their busineses. 

But if it were Jesus who was living in a refugee camp or Jesus being hunted down by the Taliban or Jesus looking for work so he could care for Mary would you ask the same question? Is that the question you would ask as the good Samaritan? Maybe. If not, what question would you ask?

 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But it is offcourse ridicelous that we in the Netherlands are letting everyone in and need to help everyone (in my opinion something that we absolutely don't need to do) while there is simply just no space anymore in our little country. It's just full.

My post with all the calculations and sources appears to have disappeared so just stating it now.  If the Netherlands at over 40,000 sq km packed in as many people per sq km as Manila does (over 40,000), the Netherlands could take over 1 billion more people.  Not saying they should, of course.

What is full is determined more by personal preferences and experience.  After living in a 3000 sq foot house with just 3 people (never intended to end up this way, we assumed we would take in relatives who were students so at least 5 would be living here, but that didn’t work out as no one wanted to drive 20 minutes to get to BYU even for a free room), I am going to find it difficult to downsize even though I purged about a third of our stuff so it would be easier when it has to happen. I grew up in a family of 7 and my husband in a family of 10 in much smaller homes and yet at times we feel crowded, lol.  And my husband has a hard time finding places to put all his stuff (he has not purged his stuff) even though he has four rooms, two quite large and a bathroom for all his stuff…not including his office.  We didn’t buy for the size of the house, btw, but the location. The previous house was less than half the size of this one and it was plenty of room for us.  We have all adjusted though, so now this house is the right size for us. I am embarrassed of our excess, but it was the cheapest house available where we wanted to live (needed to for my mental health, needed to be surrounded by greenery in the heat of summer not to hate my life).

Edited December 15, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My post with all the calculations and sources appears to have disappeared so just stating it now.  If the Netherlands at over 40,000 sq km packed in as many people per sq km as Manila does (over 40,000), the Netherlands could take over 1 billion more people.  Not saying they should, of course.

Yeah and can you only imagine what a mess it would be here with another billion people. Believe me it's allready getting really full here. 1 billion more people will also mean that a lot of people will end up homeless, a higher increas in crime rates, the netherlands wouldn't be able the help as many people in the extend of how many people they help on the moment right now. And the police will not have any controll over the situation anymore. Something they already are having a hard time with right now. 

The United States is bigger and the government has more money then ours. It should be decent to get your own citizens from the streets. And use the empty land for more affordable homes. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What is full is determined more by personal preferences and experience.  After living in a 3000 sq foot house with just 3 people (never intended to end up this way, we assumed we would take in relatives who were students so at least 5 would be living here, but that didn’t work out as no one wanted to drive 20 minutes to get to BYU even for a free room).

Really? Ridicelous. Only a 20 minute drive is already to much for these people? 🤷‍♀️

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am going to find it difficult to downsize even though I purged about a third of our stuff so it would be easier when it has to happen. I grew up in a family of 7 and my husband in a family of 10 in much smaller homes and yet at times we feel crowded, lol.

I gotta say your homes are way bigger then ours here. I grew up in a family with one sister and my both parents. So we where with 4 people. The house we lived in was not crazy big but it was decent. 2 gardens. 2 toilets. 1 bathroom. 3 sleeping rooms. 1 living room. And another room for the kitchen. And 2 gardens, 1 on the backside of the house and one at the front door. So it was quite decent. We all had our own space. I lived there till i was 28, so..the biggest part of my life. In 2020 my parents sold the house. Right on the moment the pandamic started. From that moment on my life has never been the same. 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 And my husband has a hard time finding places to put all his stuff (he has not purged his stuff) even though he has four rooms, two quite large and a bathroom for all his stuff…not including his office.  We didn’t buy for the size of the house, btw, but the location. The previous house was less than half the size of this one and it was plenty of room for us.  We have all adjusted though, so now this house is the right size for us. I am embarrassed of our excess, but it was the cheapest house available where we wanted to live (needed to for my mental health, needed to be surrounded by greenery in the heat of summer not to hate my life).

I think that's a really good choise you all have made. More greenery is always nice you know. It calms the soul. That's why i love nature so much. Being around greenery and nature is just a blessing. 🌲🌳🥀

Edited December 15, 2024 by Dario_M

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

Ask an indigenous person, they had to accomodate, unwillingly, all of us North Americans-I am sure they have opinions about immigration 

Oh yes.

[Peacefully]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

Ask an indigenous person, they had to accomodate, unwillingly, all of us North Americans-I am sure they have opinions about immigration 

I have a wristband that I bought from a standup comic who is descended from indigenous people, it says “Fighting terrorism since 1492.” 

 We saw his show on a cruise ship and he had a great joke about all the white people boarding the ship and he told his mom that they were finally leaving, lol. 

He found a way, through comedy, to make us think about what our ancestors did. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Peacefully

[Peacefully]

3 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Dup
 

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Peacefully

[halconero]

Trying to tie this into something doctrine-related, I find it interesting that we have some hint with regards to Zion's future immigration policy (IMO):

Quote

We have got this kingdom to build up; and it is not a phantom, but a reality. We have to do it, God expects it at our hands. We have got to have—now do not tell any body for it is a great secret; we have got to have political power. What, will not that be treason? Perhaps so, but no matter; we have got to go on and progress in these things. We have got to establish a government upon the principle of righteousness, justice, truth and equality and not according to the many false notions that exist among men. And then the day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference.

And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled that prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time. Will we protect such people? Yes, all honorable men. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.

- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, volume 21, 31 August 1879.

I could do a whole threat on immigration policy as outlined in the scriptures, talks, and other sources, but in general it is far more liberal than many members would expect, while requiring a different standard for residency than most immigration policies worldwide consider.

Edited December 16, 2024 by halconero

[smac97]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:39 PM, Danzo said:

Right away you switch from people coming here legally to citizenship.  Not everyone who wants to come here legally wants to become a citizen.  It is not the same thing.

Okay.

On 12/13/2024 at 5:39 PM, Danzo said:

Lets just start with getting here legally then we can address citizenship. 

Okay.

On 12/13/2024 at 5:39 PM, Danzo said:

Open borders/Closed borders is a false dichotomy.

I never posited "closed borders."  Rather, I have spoken of secured borders.  I want people coming and going, but in regulated and safe and legal ways.

On 12/13/2024 at 5:39 PM, Danzo said:

The openness of a border is is a matter of degree not some binary mechanism

How "secured" our borders are, or should be, is also a matter of degree.  I think they should be much more secure than they currently are.

On 12/13/2024 at 5:39 PM, Danzo said:

I am not for the abolition of visas, I'm for changing the process of getting a visa so that people can have a legal way of getting here.

Okay.  How many people?  As many as want to come?  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, halconero said:

Trying to tie this into something doctrine-related, I find it interesting that we have some hint with regards to Zion's future immigration policy (IMO):

Quote

We have got this kingdom to build up; and it is not a phantom, but a reality. We have to do it, God expects it at our hands. We have got to have—now do not tell any body for it is a great secret; we have got to have political power. What, will not that be treason? Perhaps so, but no matter; we have got to go on and progress in these things. We have got to establish a government upon the principle of righteousness, justice, truth and equality and not according to the many false notions that exist among men. And then the day is not far distant when this nation will be shaken from centre to circumference.

And now, you may write it down, any of you, and I will prophesy it in the name of God. And then will be fulfilled that prediction to be found in one of the revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those who will not take up their sword to fight against their neighbor must needs flee to Zion for safety. And they will come, saying we do not know anything of the principles of your religion, but we perceive that you are an honest community; you administer justice and righteousness, and we want to live with you and receive the protection of your laws, but as for your religion we will talk about that some other time. Will we protect such people? Yes, all honorable men. When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the programme, and as long as we do what is right and fear God, he will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.

- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, volume 21, 31 August 1879.

Could you elaborate what you mean by "Zion's future immigration policy"?  What is "Zion" in this context?  The institutional Church?  If so, how does this work with

A) the Church's lack of secular authority (disclaimed per D&C 134:10), and

B) the Church's statements - considerably more recent than 1879 - regarding obeying the laws of the land (per the 9th Article of Faith) and the right for nation-states to secure their borders:

• "Most Americans agree that the federal government of the United States should secure its borders and sharply reduce or eliminate the flow of undocumented immigrants. Unchecked and unregulated, such a flow may destabilize society and ultimately become unsustainable."
• "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas."
• "The Church supports an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship."
• "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supports a balanced and civil approach to a challenging problem, fully consistent with its tradition of compassion, its reverence for family, and its commitment to law."
• We acknowledge that every nation has the right to enforce its laws and secure its borders. All persons subject to a nation’s laws are accountable for their acts in relation to them.

2 minutes ago, halconero said:

I could do a whole threat on immigration policy as outlined in the scriptures, talks, and other sources, but in general it is far more liberal than many members would expect, while requiring a different standard for residency than most immigration policies worldwide consider.

I would be interested in reading it.  I suspect I would be on board with some/much/all of it, as it sounds like where I seem to be headed.

Thanks,

-Smac

[halconero]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate what you mean by "Zion's future immigration policy"?  What is "Zion" in this context?  The institutional Church?  If so, how does this work with

A) the Church's lack of secular authority (disclaimed per D&C 134:10), and

I personally believe that Zion will, at some point, become a political entity with governmental authority.

I go back and forth as to when and how that happens. I don't think it coincides with the Second Coming. In fact, I think the Second Coming is likely to happen several generations following the establishment of Zion.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

B) the Church's statements - considerably more recent than 1879 - regarding obeying the laws of the land (per the 9th Article of Faith) and the right for nation-states to secure their borders:

• "Most Americans agree that the federal government of the United States should secure its borders and sharply reduce or eliminate the flow of undocumented immigrants. Unchecked and unregulated, such a flow may destabilize society and ultimately become unsustainable."
• "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas."
• "The Church supports an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship."
• "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supports a balanced and civil approach to a challenging problem, fully consistent with its tradition of compassion, its reverence for family, and its commitment to law."
• We acknowledge that every nation has the right to enforce its laws and secure its borders. All persons subject to a nation’s laws are accountable for their acts in relation to them.

See the first point. I personally think that Zion will, at some point, have its own ability to establish immigration and border security laws.

To make a more general point, however, I think it's useful to parse immigration criteria and quotas from border security policy. They are interrelated but distinct. In fact, my friend Ryan Briggs and his colleague Omer Solodoch recently published an experimental paper demonstrating the causal impact of perceived border security on preferences for different levels of immigration. The TL;DR is that an increased sense of security positively impacts the desired level of immigration. They propose that a sense of control mediates this relationship, even when the characteristics and number of immigrants remains unchanged.

As someone who strongly believes in both the empirical evidence favouring increased immigration and normatively believes in its benefits, I would happily fund a stronger border patrol and even physical barriers in exchange for comprehensive immigration reforms that increase available temporary visas, regulatory oversight on green card numbers (the current number is set by legislation, which is silly, IMO), and shift to a points/family/resettlement system akin to Canada's.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I would be interested in reading it.  I suspect I would be on board with some/much/all of it, as it sounds like where I seem to be headed.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'll try to get to it over the holidays. No promises, however. I'm trying to wrap up a couple papers and am bogged down with marking term papers atm.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, halconero said:

ll try to get to it over the holidays. No promises, however. I'm trying to wrap up a couple papers and am bogged down with marking term papers atm.

I am interested too.  My guess is my position is close to yours given what you have said so far.

[smac97]

56 minutes ago, halconero said:

I personally believe that Zion will, at some point, become a political entity with governmental authority.

And "Zion" = the institutional Church?  As presently constituted?  Will this be a pre-millennial thing?

56 minutes ago, halconero said:

I go back and forth as to when and how that happens. I don't think it coincides with the Second Coming. In fact, I think the Second Coming is likely to happen several generations following the establishment of Zion.

I would like to read more about this concept.  Is it just your own, or are you relying on others when formulating it?  Can you provide any references for it?  Are you thinking along "Council of Fifty" lines?

56 minutes ago, halconero said:

See the first point. I personally think that Zion will, at some point, have its own ability to establish immigration and border security laws.

Still curious what this "Zion" is, and if there is any pre-millennial aspect to it.

So "Zion" will have the powers of secular government?  Legislating statutes, enforcing and interpreting them, etc.?  Armed forces and law enforcement?  Essentially, a theocratic state?

56 minutes ago, halconero said:

To make a more general point, however, I think it's useful to parse immigration criteria and quotas from border security policy. They are interrelated but distinct. In fact, my friend Ryan Briggs and his colleague Omer Solodoch recently published an experimental paper demonstrating the causal impact of perceived border security on preferences for different levels of immigration. The TL;DR is that an increased sense of security positively impacts the desired level of immigration. They propose that a sense of control mediates this relationship, even when the characteristics and number of immigrants remains unchanged.

I assume the relationship here is inverse?  That more border security results in increased comfort levels re: immigration, and vice versa?

56 minutes ago, halconero said:

As someone who strongly believes in both the empirical evidence favouring increased immigration and normatively believes in its benefits, I would happily fund a stronger border patrol and even physical barriers in exchange for comprehensive immigration reforms that increase available temporary visas, regulatory oversight on green card numbers (the current number is set by legislation, which is silly, IMO), and shift to a points/family/resettlement system akin to Canada's.

I'll try to get to it over the holidays. No promises, however. I'm trying to wrap up a couple papers and am bogged down with marking term papers atm.

Sounds good.  Take your time.  I look forward to reading it.  I would love to see increased security and increased (lawful) immigration.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 17, 2024 by smac97

[rodheadlee]

On 12/14/2024 at 9:08 PM, Duncan said:

Ask an indigenous person, they had to accomodate, unwillingly, all of us North Americans-I am sure they have opinions about immigration 

I am an indigenous person,  well at least 1/4 Cherokee. How many generations do you have to be here to be considered indigenous?

[rodheadlee]

On 12/14/2024 at 10:17 PM, Rain said:

Like I said I don't have the knowledge to make policies, but the first thing I can think of doing is change more zones to allow multi family housing. I get that some few areas can't handle more people, but in so many areas many people just don't want people who need apartments to live in the area. 

I'm not aware of numbers for asylum seekers or who are here illegally, but refugees actually help the economy more than they get help. They create more jobs through their busineses. 

But if it were Jesus who was living in a refugee camp or Jesus being hunted down by the Taliban or Jesus looking for work so he could care for Mary would you ask the same question? Is that the question you would ask as the good Samaritan? Maybe. If not, what question would you ask?

 

Well I think Jesus would start building houses. He was a carpenter. I have a sneaking suspicion that's what we'll be doing when he gets here this second time.

[rodheadlee]

On 12/14/2024 at 9:50 PM, Dario_M said:

But it is offcourse ridicelous that we in the Netherlands are letting everyone in and need to help everyone (in my opinion something that we absolutely don't need to do) while there is simply just no space anymore in our little country. It's just full. And you guys kick everyone out while you guys have plenty of space to help some foreigners. But even more important, start helping your own people. Because i just know that a lot of people are homeless in the united states. Why do those people don't get help? Why is the government not building more homes...there is so much space...plenty of land to build on. 🤷‍♀️

I can tell you the same thing happened in Fiji. The immigrants outnumbered the local Fijians and took over the politics and my friend had to move his business to Samoa.