Joseph Smith's Schooling/Vocabulary to produce The Book of Mormon

[Anakin7]

       Emma Smith from my memory stated that Joseph smith could not have written The Book of Mormon do to his not being able to write a coherent sentence yet his letters to her from him that I have read seem to be very good polished English for an occasional grammatical error in there time period. Have there been any studies on this ?. Thank you in advance for any answers or insights. thank you. 

[Dario_M]

Joseph Smith has written the book of mormon. He made a whole manuscript by translating the golden plates. And from there he published his book. The Book of Mormon.

I have a hard time understanding why people have so many doubts about Joseph Smiths abilities. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Dario_M

[Frank11]

I think school education is overrated. He has made up his own mind. 
Intelligence, interest and time are the most important factors. 
Perhaps he was also spared a little more work because of the leg injury. 

This page gives you a good overview:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/joseph-smith-capable-of-authoring-the-book-of-mormon/

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

I have a hard time understanding why people have so many doubts about Joseph Smiths abilities. 

agree

[Dario_M]

Oh my... i had such a good and nice church service. I feel God close to me. 🌈 the next hour can only be better. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Dario_M

[rpn]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I have a hard time understanding why people have so many doubts about Joseph Smiths abilities. 

Yes, once he was called and became the Lord's prophet, the Holy Ghost absolutely magnified him.   Yes he was a reader and being a reader gives everyone a great start in learning.   And there were eventual intentional efforts to broadly educate all the church leaders in a way that was not then common in the School of the Prophets.   But he still started out the journey as a 14 year old with 3 years of formal schooling, and became an 21 year old  translator of the Book of Mormon. 

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, rpn said:

Yes, once he was called and became the Lord's prophet, the Holy Ghost absolutely magnified him.   Yes he was a reader and being a reader gives everyone a great start in learning.   And there were eventual intentional efforts to broadly educate all the church leaders in a way that was not then common in the School of the Prophets.   But he still started out the journey as a 14 year old with 3 years of formal schooling, and became an 21 year old  translator of the Book of Mormon. 

Uhm..but your point is? 🤔

[the narrator]

11 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

       Emma Smith from my memory stated that Joseph smith could not have written The Book of Mormon do to his not being able to write a coherent sentence yet his letters to her from him that I have read seem to be very good polished English for an occasional grammatical error in there time period. Have there been any studies on this ?. Thank you in advance for any answers or insights. thank you. 

In her final testimony, Emma also claims that Joseph was not involved with polygamy (he was) and that he couldn't compose a well-worded letter (he could). 

At this time Emma was likely very concerned with protecting both her husband's and her son's legacy, and so claims that she makes in defense of that legacy must be taken with a grain of salt. The same goes with Lucy's memoirs as well.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

       Emma Smith from my memory stated that Joseph smith could not have written The Book of Mormon do to his not being able to write a coherent sentence yet his letters to her from him that I have read seem to be very good polished English for an occasional grammatical error in there time period. Have there been any studies on this ?. Thank you in advance for any answers or insights. thank you. 

Lots of samples in his handwriting from 1832 onward show a lot of run-on sentences that are hard to follow. He got somewhat better of course as time went on. Most of his writings were taken care of by scribes and editing advisors anyway.

His speaking abilities seem to have followed suit, with lots of maturation experience and self-education / improvement between the time they met in 1825, the time she scribed for the translation (1829), and the time he began to string his own sentences together better, both orally and in writing.

[aw.smoot]

18 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Perhaps he was also spared a little more work because of the leg injury. 

This is such a lazy treatment in accepting for the Book of Mormon. Let's highlight just a few of these bullet points you've naively pointed to here:

Quote

Religious and educational environment

1. Joseph Smith’s father had “been a merchant and a teacher.” (Ensign 1971).
2. Hyrum attended Moor’s Indian Charity School which was co-located with Dartmouth College. Students attended “daily chapel services at the White Church on campus” and Hyrum may have been exposed to the teachings of Professor John Smith who had recently died after 23 years as Hanover’s minister and influential Dartmouth professor.²
3. Joseph’s grandmother had been a schoolteacher and had taught Joseph’s mother. (source)

To somehow avoid recognizing Joseph's lack of formal education, critics often go to great lengths to desperately speculate supplemental sources for Joseph. The problem, however, is that neither Joseph's neither father, mother, or brother appear to have been capable of writing the Book of Mormon. If Joseph is somehow serving as the apprentice to Joseph Smith Sr or Lucy Mack, we should expect to see their theological understanding or literary merit to at least match with what we see in the 500k+ word literary work that is the Book of Mormon. We see nothing close to that. In fact, we see the opposite. Joseph Smith Sr, Lucy Mack, Emma, Hyrum, and all the others around him were astounded by Joseph's dictation project and seem wholly unfamiliar with its content. And nobody in the Smith household ever produces or contributes in any way to anything close to this dictation project. 

And the notion that there's a link to Hyrum attending Moor's Charity School is so laughable it's almost sad. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the scholarship on this topic knows that 1) Hyrum attended Moor's Charity School when he was eleven years old. This school was an introductory grammar school for indigenous children and undereducated working children. Hyrum literally was learning basic sentence structure and articulation. To assert that somehow this child was wandering into advanced theological courses that he could then relay back to his younger brother several years later in order to produce the Book of Mormon is incredibly stupid. Additionally, for those that spend no effort in actually studying the history here, Professor John Smith bears no relation to the Smith family and he died when Joseph Smith Jr. was only 3 years old.

Quote

Joseph Smith had 3 years of “formal” education. Compare that with other prolific authors of his era:

• Andrew Jackson Davis: claimed 5 months—dictated the 320,000 word volume “The Principles of Nature” at the age of 20.
• Jane Austen: about 2.5 to 3 years of formal education³—completed First Impressions (precursor to Pride and Prejudice) at the age of 21.
• Abraham Lincoln: about 1 year of “formal” education
• Walt Whitman: 6 years
• Mark Twain 5 years
• Herman Melville 6 years

This is again, a very disingenuous approach to avoid admitting that what Joseph composed in a single dictated draft without any major paragraph revisions "should rank among the great achievements of American literature", according to Pulitzer Prize winning historian, E.D. Howe. Lincoln, Whitman, and Twain were persons of immense privilege that were privy to private tutors and apprenticeships. There is virtually no profile match with any single one of these examples that you've listed here except that these persons received their education via private (and privileged) means, rather than traditional public education. And in every single example that you've provided here, all of these were published authors prior to having written any celebrated literary work. On the other hand, to quote Fawn Brodie: "Never having written a line of fiction, [Joseph] laid out for himself a task that would have given the most experienced novelist pause."

And here's what gets at the heart of what you've laid out here – Considering all the data that we can collect from the historical record, these assertions don't assess the probability, but the possibility. If we really squint at the data, we can maybe, possibly conclude that Joseph's education may have been as high as a 7th grade education. Ignoring the fact that the reading level of the Book of Mormon is at least the level of an 8th grade literary education (and that's not including the impressive narratological and theological depth in these literary details), we then assert "Well, others have done impressive literary feats too!!!!" Like, great! But why is Joseph doing it? 

Hyrum was more educated, William was more charismatic, Catherine was better read, Lucy Mack was more religious, Joseph Sr. was more familiar with magical folklore -- What leg up does Joseph have over not only the members of his family but his whole environment? If Josephs' feat was such as "not-big-deal" as critics make it out to be, why does the Book of Mormon stand out in Palmyra? His neighbors were taken aback, the local papers were skeptical, and Joseph had never once proven any ability to do such a feat. The fact of the matter is, if Joseph hadn't ascribed his name to the title page of the first edition of the Book of Mormon, we would never have known that it came from a 23-yo farm boy in upstate New York. That its a 19th century text can be demonstrated. But that it's just your typical run-of-the-mill attempt at producing scripture is simply not the case.

Quote

1. Palmyra was rich in books, generally.

Yeah, that's true. Which is what makes the story all the more interesting. Because the Book of Mormon is different. It feels materially different. When the Book of Mormon is studied in its entirety, (rather than cherry picking bits here and there) it clearly stands out from the rest. And this was apparent to everyone around Joseph. Both by those that believed his account (and knew him best), and those that skeptical of Joseph's claims.

The claim isn't that the Book of Mormon is an inhuman text. It's clearly a man-man text. And it clearly was produced in 1830 via an oral diction by Joseph Smith in the summer of 1829. But it's also a complex and sophisticated text with advanced narratology and profound theological depth. And everything we know about Joseph and his circumstances simply doesn't account for all that we find in this curious text.

Quote

I don’t blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself.” – Joseph Smith Jr.

[aw.smoot]

Just now, aw.smoot said:

accepting

accounting** for...

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, aw.smoot said:

Lincoln, Whitman, and Twain were persons of immense privilege that were privy to private tutors and apprenticeships. There is virtually no profile match with any single one of these examples that you've listed here except that these persons received their education via private (and privileged) means, rather than traditional public education.

Do you have a link to this info?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, aw.smoot said:

accounting** for...

5 more posts and you will be able to edit this is you care to.  And get rep points which I am looking forward to.  Very informative and well presented 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Calm

[blackstrap]

aw.smoot  ,  when you get to 25 posts there will be a couple of extra ' upvotes ' that magically appear. 

[webbles]

Quote

Andrew Jackson Davis: claimed 5 months—dictated the 320,000 word volume “The Principles of Nature” at the age of 20.

I hadn't heard of that book before so I went looking.  Found it online at https://archive.org/details/principlesnatur01davigoog/mode/2up?view=theater.  I read the introduction which talked about how the book was created.  Davis would go into a trance and then receive the words from a different state of being.  It makes it sound pretty similar to Joseph Smith.  But there is a pretty interesting difference.  From page xviii of the introduction:

Quote

His diction is of the most direct and simple kind, and his ideas seem usually to be clothed in those words which first present themselves. His phraseology is not a subject o£ interior direction except w^hen nice distinctions are to be drawn and great precision of expression is required. His style is much such as he would use in his normal state if a knowledge were imparled to him on the subjects on w^hich he treats while in his elevated condition. His grammar is therefore defective ; and although, when it is necessary in order to properly embody an idea, he employs technical terms, and even foreign words and phrases, with the greatest facility, he sometimes mispronounces, yet not in such a way as to obscure his meaning. Correctness might have been attained in all these particulars, yet the labor on his part would in that case have been immensely increased, by making all those minutia? matters of interior investigation. His great object was simply to present the idea, leaving the niceties of the verbal clothing to be adjusted by myself, with the restriction that the corrections should be such as not to destroy the peculiarities of the general style and mode of expression.

And later on the same page, it says:

Quote

On closing the address to the world, the author immediately proceeded to give general directions as to the corrections of the manuscripts, and the preparation of the work for the press. These directions (preserved in writing and subscribed by a witness) I have scrupulously followed to the best of my ability. With the exception of striking out a few sentences and supplying others, according to direction, I have only found it necessary to correct the grammar, to prune out verbal redundancies, and to clarify such sentences as would to the general reader appear obscure. All ideas have been most scrupulously preserved, and great care has been taken to give them to the reader in the precise aspect in which they appeared when received from the speaker. We have, also, conscientiously abstained from adding any ideas of our own. Also ail comparisons, and technical and foreign terms and phrases, and all peculiarities of expression, are exclusively the speaker's. When we have found it necessary to reconstruct sentences, we have employed, as far as possible, only the verbal materials found in the sentence as it first stood, preserving the peculiarities of style and mode of expression. The arrangement of the work is the same as when delivered, except that in three instances contiguous paragraphs have been transposed for the sake of a closer connection. With these unimportant qualifications, the work may be considered as paragraph for paragraph, sentence for sentence, and word for word, as it was delivered by the author. The notes interspersed through the book, except that on page 593, were composed by ourself.

So, the ideas in the book are from Davis but William Fishbough (the one writing the introduction) provided the "niceties of the verbal clothing" and corrected the grammer, pruned the verbal redundancies, clarified sentences, reconstructed sentences, rearranged paragraphs, etc.

I don't think this book is a good example of someone with little education being able to write an impressive volume of work.  William Fishbough is the one who wrote it, using the ideas from Andrew Davis.  It appears that Andrew Davis didn't have the ability to dictate the book by himself.

Edited September 30, 2024 by webbles

[Nevo]

47 minutes ago, aw.smoot said:

And the notion that there's a link to Hyrum attending Moor's Charity School is so laughable it's almost sad. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the scholarship on this topic knows that 1) Hyrum attended Moor's Charity School when he was eleven years old. This school was an introductory grammar school for indigenous children and undereducated working children. Hyrum literally was learning basic sentence structure and articulation. To assert that somehow this child was wandering into advanced theological courses that he could then relay back to his younger brother several years later in order to produce the Book of Mormon is incredibly stupid. Additionally, for those that spend no effort in actually studying the history here, Professor John Smith bears no relation to the Smith family and he died when Joseph Smith Jr. was only 3 years old.

This has become a pet research topic of mine lately, so I would offer a couple of corrections. A number of sources state that Hyrum started attending Moor's Charity School at 11, but I think it's more likely that he started attending at age 12. The Smiths don't appear on Lebanon, New Hampshire, tax assessment records until May 1813, which suggests that they moved into the area after the previous assessment was completed in May 1812 (see Vogel, EMD 1:663). Hyrum probably started attending Moor's in September 1812. 

At that time, Moor's Charity School wasn't only an introductory grammar school for indigenous children and undereducated working children. Some pupils were learning Greek and Latin and preparing to enter Dartmouth. But Hyrum didn't attend long enough to receive this advanced training. If my calculations are correct, he spent less than 18 months at Moor's, which would mean that he received a basic grammar school education like his siblings, with instruction in reading and writing and arithmetic ("ciphering to the rule of three").

I agree that Hyrum almost certainly had no exposure to John Smith's theological lectures, which were delivered at Dartmouth over a decade earlier and were unremarkable in any case. The Behrens article speculating about a "Dartmouth connection" to early Mormonism is complete rubbish.

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, aw.smoot said:

And the notion that there's a link to Hyrum attending Moor's Charity School is so laughable it's almost sad. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the scholarship on this topic knows that 1) Hyrum attended Moor's Charity School when he was eleven years old. This school was an introductory grammar school for indigenous children and undereducated working children. Hyrum literally was learning basic sentence structure and articulation.

Nevo from another thread mentions that Hyrum was on the books at Moor's in 1814. So he would have been 14, not 11. Moor's Charity School shared facilities with Dartmouth. They shared pastors and teachers, so its not totally accurate to isolate the two.

More importantly, IMO, is that the Smith's lived between 5 (Lebanon) to 15 (Sharon) miles of Dartmouth. They had access to books and conversations. Lucy Mack Smith tells a story of Asael throwing a copy of Thomas Paine's Age of Reason through their door in Turnbridge, imploring the Smiths to read it. This seems to align with the letter written by a member of the Green Mountain Boys intended for Joseph Smith Jr. claiming that Joseph Smith Sr. declared frequently that Voltaire was the best Bible extant at that time, and Thomas Paine the best commentary:

"You must well remember [Joseph Smith Sr's] frequent declarations that the whole bible was the work of priestcraft, and that no Nation was so enlightened, but it could be made to believe in any religion however absurd it might be, if it was advocated perseveringly for fifty years, it would become the popular religion of the country, and as good as any other; that Voltaires writings were the best bible then extant, and Thomas Paines age of reason, the best commentary..." (source)

This is not something someone "more familiar with magical folklore" would say. Joseph Smith Sr. started a Universalist society with Asael and Jesse. This is not something someone "more familiar with magical folklore" would do.

3 hours ago, aw.smoot said:

If Josephs' feat was such as "not-big-deal" as critics make it out to be, why does the Book of Mormon stand out in Palmyra? His neighbors were taken aback, the local papers were skeptical, and Joseph had never once proven any ability to do such a feat.

I'm definitely in the Book of Mormon is an incredible work camp, but I'm not so sure about this claim. Does the Book of Mormon stand out in Palmyra as literature?

"Local printers refused Joseph’s proposed book, and not entirely out of religious misgiving. Printing a book as large and as expensive as the Book of Mormon would demand expertise and an investment in new printing type and supplies. Joseph Smith and Martin Harris visited several printers about the project. Three printers in Palmyra and Rochester—Egbert Grandin, Jonathan Hadley, and Thurlow Weed—turned them down, and Grandin even tried to enlist Harris’s friends to dissuade Harris from financing the book. When Rochester printer Elihu Marshall agreed to publish the book, Joseph and Martin returned to Grandin in Palmyra, hoping to print the book closer to home. Harris offered to mortgage part of his farm as collateral, and the men negotiated terms. In August 1829, Harris signed over the mortgage to Grandin, and production of the Book of Mormon began." (source)

Luther Bradish, son of a Palmyra family, was one of the first to see the Anthon transcript. He was the agent for Washington Irving and James Fennimore Cooper. He was one of America's most informed experts on things Egyptian, having traveled there. If there was anyone around Palmyra that might have been interested in the Book of Mormon as literature, it was Bradish. After advising Martin Harris to take up a different hobby, he seems to have said nothing about the book to anyone.

Edited September 30, 2024 by Zosimus

[Frank11]

15 hours ago, aw.smoot said:

Hyrum was more educated, William was more charismatic, Catherine was better read, Lucy Mack was more religious, Joseph Sr. was more familiar with magical folklore -- What leg up does Joseph have over not only the members of his family but his whole environment?

1. He had the will to do it.
2. He had the opportunity to do it. 
    - Financing the Book of Mormon project by Martin Harris
    - Environment was receptive to his golden plates story
3. He had a "good" reputation as a seer in the folk magic scene.
4. He had exceptional talent as a tale-teller (see below).
5. He had sufficient criminal energy.

Mother Lucy Mack Smith said: “I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any that ever lived upon the face of the earth–all seated in a circle, father, mother, sons and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy, eighteen years of age, …During our evening conversations, JOSEPH would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ANCIENT INHABITANTS of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with EASE, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them.” (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, 1954 Edition, pages 82-83)

 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Frank11

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

He had sufficient criminal energy.

Please define criminal energy and how that relates to Joseph Smith. 

[webbles]

22 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

1. He had the will to do it.
2. He had the opportunity to do it. 
    - Financing the Book of Mormon project by Martin Harris
    - Environment was receptive to his golden plates story
3. He had a "good" reputation as a seer in the folk magic scene.
4. He had exceptional talent as a tale-teller (see below).
5. He had sufficient criminal energy.

Mother Lucy Mack Smith said: “I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any that ever lived upon the face of the earth–all seated in a circle, father, mother, sons and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy, eighteen years of age, …During our evening conversations, JOSEPH would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ANCIENT INHABITANTS of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with EASE, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them.” (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, 1954 Edition, pages 82-83)

 

I don't think that quote from Lucy Mack Smith is good for saying he had the talent.  Lucy says it was after the angel visited.  So he could be retelling what he heard from the angel.  If there was another source saying Joseph was good at making up stories, I'd love to see it.

[Frank11]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Please define criminal energy and how that relates to Joseph Smith. 

The fundamental willingness to act criminally.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

The fundamental willingness to act criminally.

How does that relate to Joseph Smith?

[Frank11]

4 minutes ago, webbles said:

If there was another source saying Joseph was good at making up stories, I'd love to see it.

Look in the Book of Mormon.

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Look in the Book of Mormon.

I find that to be an even worse source saying Joseph was good at making up stories.

[2BizE]

There were a number of places in the original Book of Mormon where the grammar used was consistent with Appalachian vocabulary:

for examples:

 Mosiah 10:15 spoke of people who “had arriven to the promised land”; “they was yet wroth,” reported 1 Nephi 4:4; “I have wrote this epistle,” said Giddianhi at 3 Nephi 3:5; “I was a going thither,” Amulek recalled at Alma 10:8; the original version of Helaman 7:8 and 13:37 referred to events “in them days”; and “they done all these things,” reported Ether 9:29."